Taim

[Cut Strand]

RJ's answer could have been not as comprehensive as he intended.

 

I remember a lot of times Min talking about seeing past images, but they always relate to a future image.

 

Taim's blood in past and future could just indicate that he has used force (causing people to die in the process) to achieve power (as a false dragon) in the past, and will use similar methods to pursue power in the future. In this case the Viewing represents an unchanged man.

 

Edit: Why is this italicized?!

 

Also, talks about Shaidar Haren and Moridin having a time share on a body is pretty unrelated to a discussion about Taim.

[Luckers]

Posted Yesterday, 04:55 PM

 

Luckers, on 23 September 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

 

Mik said:

 

I'm clearly describing a situation of a Circle (or Ring) of just a male & female channeler.

You're describing a female channeler who's looking at a female-led Circle/ Ring. Or a female channeler who is describing a Circle/ Ring where she herself is part of the Circle.

 

As we can see from Nyn's PoV in KoD @ the manor house after the Trolloc-attack, female channelers don't see the link at all in a male/female ring of 2 channelers. Nyn only notices that the Aes Sedai & Asha'man who are on clean-up duty are linked due to the weird angles and bends Saidar makes and the intencity of the Fire-weave.

And that's just the females.

Males don't see a thing, unless they're part of the Ring.

 

Nynaeve doesn't mention the light of saidar at all. She speaks of the forced way the weaves move spoke of a link, but not that there weren't any other indicators.

Don't take this the wrong way please, but I don't really see the point of bringing up that Nynaeve doesn't mention the light of Saidar [around people] at all, since I feel it's irrelevant in this discussion. I'm not even sure why you bring it up. I said "Nyn only notices that the Aes Sedai & Asha'man.../ /...are linked due to the weird angles and bends Saidar makes and the intencity of the Fire-weave". I'm specifically talking about the weave, so I don't see the point you are trying to make by bringing it up?

 

Here's the quote:

 

Nynaeve PoV in Chapter 20 of KoD - said:

 

They were linked. She could tell from the way the flows of saidar moved, stiffly, as though they were being forced into place rather than guided. Or rather, the men were trying to force them. That never worked with the female half of the Power. It was pure Fire, and the blazes were ferocious, fiercer than she would have expected from Fire alone. But of course they would be using saidin as well, and who could say what they were adding from that murderous chaos?

 

It's plain as grass that Nynaeve only knows the pairs she is watching are linked due to the way Saidar flows move. And she only knows that Saidin is involved in the weave as well is from the ferocity of the Fire-weave. And since Nynaeve thinks to herself that she knows they are linked due to how she sees Saidar behave is a clear and unmistakable way for us readers to tell she couldn't see or sense it in any other way

 

Actually it is not plain as grass that that is the only reason she knows they are linked. She states she knows they are linked from the way the weaves act, not that that is the only reason she knows they are linked--she makes no mention of the light of saidar, and why, after acknowledging the link, would she go on to list the other indications of the link.

 

In any case it is irrelevent because even if you were correct it would merely show that the light of saidar does not expand to include men in a link. It does not prove that the dissolution of a link cannot be detected.

 

Luckers, on 23 September 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

 

Besides, even if your inference is correct, this only speaks of the light not expanding to include men, not that she could not have felt the flow of saidar moving through the man.

 

 

If she could have felt (or seen) the flow of Saidar through the men, then why is it that she clearly thinks to herself that 'they were linked due to how the Saidar Fire flow was woven'...?

I'm not sure i'd want to call it deduction on my part, but just a written fact by the author. What did I deduct/ infer?

 

Because she was looking at the way the weaves were being woven at the time... why on earth would she think about her sensations of saidar over the way the weaves were acting when she was specifically watching the weaves?

 

And I wouldn't call it a deduction on your part either--it was an inference pure and simple. You infered from the fact that she notices the behaviour of the weave that there were no other indications of the link. More than that you infered that there couldn't be any other indications of the link.

 

What it most certainly is not is a 'written fact by the author'.

 

Luckers, on 23 September 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

 

First off, start phrasing things more nicely: "Well, I'm not sure your point is accurate, so I'm not sure how reasonable it is to suggest that. Consider..." would easily have done as well as what you said, and would not sound rude.

 

 

It's not my intention to make this sound rude at all. I was seriously trying to help you guys to make heads and tails of how I view this series. I'm way too direct and I more often then not just don't realise how offended people can be by my blunt response. I'll try to be less 'direct' or 'black&white'. I hope it helps that when I'm saying that you're in the thread really lifts my spirit. I'm sorry for being blunt. I'm just a blind fool when it comes to feelings more often then not.

 

I know--that's what I meant by 'sound rude'. I didn't think you meant it to.

 

Luckers, on 23 September 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

 

Secondly, Nyn's scene is not proof. It stands at best as suggestive evidence that the light of saidar doesn't expand to include men in a circle. No where is there direct evidence stating a man cannot sense a link dissolve.

 

 

I think this is quite inaccurate. Logic suggests that for a man to be able to sense a link dissolve, he should in the first place be able to sense the link itself.

There are multiple occasions in the books, where it is clear beyonf a shadow of a doubt that men can't sense (nor see) the link between a man and a woman. Or even between a man and several females. Just to name two very telling examples, I'd like to point out the Cleansing scenes in WH. Demandred (a very very strong experienced channeler) never even notices that Flynn is linked to the Aes Sedai he is with. He only realizes they are linked after Flynn attacks him with webs that are way too strong for Flynn to weave them all by himself. The same goes for the Eben & Aran'gar scene (again, a very strong experienced channeler using Saidin). Aran'gar never even notices the link and refers to Eben as a servant (a groom IIRC). I believe there is more proof in the books, but I'm going off the top of my head here and this alone is more then enough proof if you ask me.

 

Demandred never even senses that Flinn is holding saidin, much less that the women are.

 

Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him through the trees, and sheltered behind a rough gray trunk. A bald-headed old man with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning. What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al'Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were. Any use of the Power would warn al'Thor. He would have to wait until they passed. The old man's head was turning as if he were searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far.

 

Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring.

 

Demandred clearly never notices the sense of saidin at all. My guess is because they had the ability masked, but either way if he didn't notice it in Damar, then it is a moot point about him not noticing it in the Aes Sedai.

 

As for Aran'gar, Eben states that Daigian was drawing very little of saidin: "Daigian was leading the circle—because of him, he thought—but she was drawing so lightly that he felt barely a whisper of saidin passing through him."

 

Why you think Aran'gar should sense it when Eben himself barely could, I do not know.

 

Could you please post your direct evidence that one man can sense Saidin flow from another man through a woman in a link?

I would very much like to see it. I hope you do not find it rude that I need more then your word for it.

 

I already did. The dual pieces, that a man can sense the flow of saidin, and that in a link saidin flows through the women involved even if they are not leading the link--men can sense the flow of saidin, and saidin flows through a woman in a link--ergo, men can sense the flow of saidin through a woman.

 

I'll be the first to admit that is some solid reasoning right there. And I'll even go as far as to say that your inferred conclusion is at the very least a nice hypothesis.

 

But wouldn't you agree that if we have black on white proof that very experienced, very strong male channelers (Demandred & Aran'gar @ the Cleansing in this case) can't even see or sense if a male is linked to females or not -regardless who is leading-, it's the only logical deduction to conclude that male channelers sure as hell can't tell if said undetectable link is disolved?

 

 

 

Actually that's a deduction. An inference is saying A = B. A Deduction is saying A + B = C. Your comment that Nynaeve citing the bending of the weaves as her reason for knowing they were linked means that there were no other signs is an inference. A = B. Noticing Bending Weaves = That Being The Only Sign. Mine is that the combination of men sensing the flow of saidin and the fact that saidin flows through women in a link would mean they could sense the ceasation of that flow and know the link had been severed. A + B = C. Sense of Flow + Saidin Flows Through Women In a Link = Men Can Sense The State of A Link.

 

And I'm sorry I wouldn't agree to the rest. Demandred doesn't sense saidin in general, not even from Damar, and we don't know what Aran'gar sensed (she was decieving them, trying to get them to lower their guard so she could kill them), but if Eben himself could barely sense saidin in him, then I have no problems in Aran'gar not

[dwn]

When discussing their plot in TFOH, Lanfear, Rahvin and Graendal want to keep Sammael out of their link in case Rand detects it.

 

-- dwn

[Luckers]

Good catch dwn. Here is the quote...

 

The golden-haired woman threw back her head and laughed. “Poor man,” she said mockingly, waving a beringed hand at him. “Do you think he would not notice that you were linked? He has a teacher, remember. A poor one, but not a complete fool. Next you will ask to include enough of those Black Ajah children to take the circle beyond thirteen, so you or Rahvin must have control.”

[OptimusPrime]

All this talk of Shaidar Haran got me thinking, which is proving to be dangerous. Brace yourselves people!

 

In a nutshell, TGS changed the way I look at the entire backdrop of the series, because of the True Power content. Basically, when Rand channelled the True Power, Lews Therin said "It is HIM." I think Im not alone when I say I took that to mean the Dark One. Now I dont know or care if that means the True Power IS the Dark One, but what I think is that in one form or another, when you channel the True Power, the Dark One is WITH you. In some form or another, you have his attention. Heres a theory.

 

Ive been thinking for a while now that the Dark One can possess True Power users, and that originally the 39 people who were granted access (as noted in Moghediens PoV) were supposed to be three Chosen circles that would "control the world under the Great Lord once he broke free." Possibly even True Power circles, the likes of which could maybe even match Choeden Kal wielders. However the Dark Ones ability to possess True Power users might either be limited to as and when they channel it, or how much of their humanity they scour away with it over time. Anyeway, coming to the thirteen Chosen we know and love, look at how they feel about the True Power. I cant remember who it was that thought only a fool would use the True Power, or words to the effect of such, but the fact that they refused to use it would obviously be noticed by the Dark One. Now, the Dark One I think would obviously notice this, because even if his doorways to the Pattern might not be open far enough, he would be able to sense their readiness so to speak, would be able to feel the opening get wider each time someone channeled him. Now imagine that the thirteen remaining members of his Chosen, Ishamael aside, never channeled the True Power, never made that opening any wider. So the Dark One thinks "I grant them access for a reason, and its not paying off, so they cant have access anymore." This is a psychological blow to the Forsaken more than anything else, because they simply think this is an act of showing that Moridin is in charge. In fact what it means, when broken down, is that Ishamael is Nae'blis because he thinks "the price for channeling the True Power is worth it." So in a way even putting Ishamaels evil mastermind qualities aside, his refusal to hold back on True Power usage in and of itself makes Ishamael the favorite.

 

Anyway onto the next bit I think the Seals on the Dark Ones prison are what stops the Dark One from possessing True Power users. However the fact that the Seals are made of cuendillar, which is vulnerable to the True Power, means this essentially a dam made of cardboard; the flaw is that while the prison was originally strong, the physical side of it as in the Seals are made of the wrong stuff, so the prison is merely a metaphysical wall which will erode when the True Power passes through it. I think that, when Rand is stood on the black slopes of Shayol Ghul, he will break the Seals, allowing the Dark One to possess him or Moridin or any other True Power user we dont know of. Then, Rand will actually channeling the True Power, which is like dangling money in front of the Dark Ones face, and the Dark One will be in there like a thing thats there really fast. Shai'tan pours himself into Rand. This moment signifies Rands experience with saidin; he has basically been forcing saidin to his will, dominating it meerly to survive, each time he channels, so Rand basically wrestles with the Dark One, drawing as much of the True Power as he can, and he begins to falter and change into Randzamon, the Dark One almost fully in control of Rands body and soul. This is when it happens, Narishma, Alivia and whoever else are linked with Callandor, Alivia in control, Narishma holding the sword. They stab Randzamon, which delivers the weave of the new prison without touching Randzamon with weaves, preventing a new taint. Rand dies, the part of the Dark One in him dies with him. Rand sacrificed himself to allow the Dark One to possess him, making the Dark One vulnerable to mortal wounds, and Rands blood on the slopes signify the Dark Ones defeat and mankinds new freedom from the Shadow.

 

Now, coming back to Shaidar. Are we agreed that Shaidar uses the True Power? If so then surely that means he must be able to channel the True Source either way, because of what RJ said. Yet we dont even know if Shadowspawn can possess the ability to channel, I mean has it been discussed anywhere if the human portion of Trolloc and Fades still have the prerequisites? Im not sure really, but the fact that Shadowspawn cant even pass through a One Power gateway puts doubt in my mind.

 

Haha, sorry I just had the image of a Trolloc channeler making a saidin gateway for the rest of fellow warriors, and wondering what kind of weapon the enemy are using to kill them all as soon as they step through lol

 

Anyway can you see where Im going with this? How can Shaidar even be a beefed up Fade, when we have little reason to think a Fade can possess the ability to channel at all, which in turn means they CANT be given True Power access? Do we think the Dark One could give access to the True SOURCE to a Fade? I doubt it myself, I think he needs something to work with. As in, someone already part of the Pattern, someone who can already channel.

 

Many people speculate on the potential connection between Moridin and Shaidar. I think the connection is simply that Moridin has used the True Power enough to make it so the Dark One can possess him whenever he wants, either that or the Dark One tampered with Ishamaels soul/Taims body so that when the reincarnation as Taim happens, the Dark One can possess it as and when he chooses. Im in favor of the first. Of course, this all might be wrong entirely, yada yada its only a theory at the end of the day.

 

I am not saying Shaidar Haran and Moridin are one being. I am not saying that Shaidar Haran is even connected to Moridin specifically beyond Moridins True Power access. I am saying that Shaidar Haran, the Hand of the Dark, is the part of the Dark Ones consciousness that he intends to possess True Power users with. The Dark One uses this section of his mind as a proxy, and the only times we have seen it so far, I think, are when it has been possessing Moridin. However, as I said earlier I think this possession requires a channeler and when it is going on it resembles the Slayer thing, in that the person possessed may remember the events but have no control. In a sense, this makes Shaidar take over like the Luc-Isam switch, as Mik said, but this is not limited to one specific person, the Dark One could possess different True Power users using Shaidar if he wished. Like I think he will try to do to Rand at Shayol Ghul.

 

In this theory, there will be no channeling fight between Shaidar and Rand, only a battle of wills, which Rand needs to hold in a stalemate position and Sheathe the Sword one last time, and then "move a hairswidth" to slide through the link to Moridin and steel Taims body off him.

[WolfTwins]

I think that, when Rand is stood on the black slopes of Shayol Ghul, he will break the Seals, allowing the Dark One to possess him or Moridin or any other True Power user we dont know of. Then, Rand will actually channeling the True Power, which is like dangling money in front of the Dark Ones face, and the Dark One will be in there like a thing thats there really fast. Shai'tan pours himself into Rand. This moment signifies Rands experience with saidin; he has basically been forcing saidin to his will, dominating it meerly to survive, each time he channels, so Rand basically wrestles with the Dark One, drawing as much of the True Power as he can, and he begins to falter and change into Randzamon, the Dark One almost fully in control of Rands body and soul. This is when it happens, Narishma, Alivia and whoever else are linked with Callandor, Alivia in control, Narishma holding the sword. They stab Randzamon, which delivers the weave of the new prison without touching Randzamon with weaves, preventing a new taint. Rand dies, the part of the Dark One in him dies with him. Rand sacrificed himself to allow the Dark One to possess him, making the Dark One vulnerable to mortal wounds, and Rands blood on the slopes signify the Dark Ones defeat and mankinds new freedom from the Shadow.

 

Challenging theory, but IMHO, this will be and need a whole new book. Nitpicking: How could Rand determine DO to pick him as the one who will be possessed?

 

 

 

May be this is a "old stuff", but it struck me for the first time when <Val Mickey> mention it in other thread, the hundred companions a.k.a. the hundred chosen asha'man of Taim. Could be Taim trying to remake the acts of LTT? Is his intention to be the new Champion of Light - may be or may be not in the service of the DO?

[OptimusPrime]

i was thinking the way Rand could make sure Shai'tan possessed HIM is by channeling the True Power at Shayol Ghul, right under Shai'tans nose. plus if the Dark One were to possess someone they cant exist at the same time, so in possessing Rand the Dark One has already overcome the greatest enemy, he then justs needs to stop the Heroes of the Horn from killing him because that would make Rand die also and be reborn again. The Dark Ones objective, if this was near the mark, would be to possess Rand in the first place, simply because Rand is the Lights greatest tool and Shai'tan wants it for his own so it cant be used against him. But yeah thats what I think the Horn was made for, to take down Shai'tan if nobody else can.

[Barid Bel Medar]

i was thinking the way Rand could make sure Shai'tan possessed HIM is by channeling the True Power at Shayol Ghul, right under Shai'tans nose. plus if the Dark One were to possess someone they cant exist at the same time, so in possessing Rand the Dark One has already overcome the greatest enemy, he then justs needs to stop the Heroes of the Horn from killing him because that would make Rand die also and be reborn again. The Dark Ones objective, if this was near the mark, would be to possess Rand in the first place, simply because Rand is the Lights greatest tool and Shai'tan wants it for his own so it cant be used against him. But yeah thats what I think the Horn was made for, to take down Shai'tan if nobody else can.

 

Its impossible to use the True Power at Shayol Ghul.

 

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

[OptimusPrime]

My mistake I misread, editted. Not seen that quote before thanks

[Barid Bel Medar]

My mistake I misread, editted. Not seen that quote before thanks

It is a decent theory, could you somehow work it around the possession bit? Or at least not in the form of the TP?

[Lynchgrinch]

Ahhhh, c'mon people.

 

Taim is just Taim. I realy hope he's not a Darkfriend even though it looks like we have a ridiculous ammount of evedance to say he is. He's too cool a character to be straight out just plain dark. He's got way more "depth" to him that i recon that we'll find out soon enough, i hope.

 

all this reading into the Taim= Moridin has just gone a bit too far i recon, people are reading into the story waaay too much.

 

RJ likes to skrew with our heads, make things seem to be one thing and then actualy be another....i recon the taim=morridin thing is waaay off, i mean just look at the ammount of tiny insignificant quotes that have been used to say he's Morridin. it's getting read into wayy too much. This shoulbe be like cludo, a sort of murder mystery. But instead it's like we're "bible bashing" with WoT quotes that don't realy mean a huge ammount.

 

Taimandred seemed like a great guess till it was proved wrong, but i'm not buying this current theory

 

sorry guys

[OptimusPrime]

My mistake I misread, editted. Not seen that quote before thanks

It is a decent theory, could you somehow work it around the possession bit? Or at least not in the form of the TP?

 

Im not sure dude, I think the True Power bit is the key to how Rand will instigate the fight. I mean channeling the True Power could very well fry you, but technically shouldnt Rand have been fried in VoG, when he held as much of the Power as he possibly could, and then tried to draw more? Would the Dark One be able to hold back on the frying part? What if the possession IS the frying bit?

[Barid Bel Medar]

My mistake I misread, editted. Not seen that quote before thanks

It is a decent theory, could you somehow work it around the possession bit? Or at least not in the form of the TP?

 

Im not sure dude, I think the True Power bit is the key to how Rand will instigate the fight. I mean channeling the True Power could very well fry you, but technically shouldnt Rand have been fried in VoG, when he held as much of the Power as he possibly could, and then tried to draw more? Would the Dark One be able to hold back on the frying part? What if the possession IS the frying bit?

 

Well I dont know about possession being realted to "frying", but it defintitely leaves a bit of room for something.

 

VoG Rand was using the CK, it was a heck of a lot, but thats the nature of the sa'angreal, let him safely channel that much.

 

Plus, the TP is a much more...volatile force. the OP is relatively safe compared. WE know if you use it continuously you will get the saa, then then death. So its much more dangerous in that respect.

 

About the DO holding the "frying" back, it is a possibility. Personally, I think it is a result of just being so close to the DO and the concentration of the TP that fries someone, but thats just me. its posible that the DO actively fries the user for some reason.

 

If the DO CAN hold back, why wouldnt he fry Rand there and then? At that time the seals would be broken and the Dragon would be the only thing in the way, I would fry them straight away to be safe, but perhaps the DO doesnt think like that.

 

Apart from that though, I dont think Rand COULD resist the DO at all. The DO is infinitely more powerful that the Dragon. Sure, the Dragon is key to sealing away the DO again and saving the world, but i think if it came head to head Rand would be utterly destroyed. Even just reaching through the bore he can mess up the pattern to near destruction, Rand is no match.

 

But thenn, as your theory may go, Rand "sacrifices" himself, the DO possesses him and he is the buffer. That is plausable, but no Rand fighting back i dont think.

[haloun]

my question is this... if the "moridaim" theory is correct wouldnt moridin/taim have the saa? i dont think you would be able to hide it, and i definately think it would have been brought up in the books. people tend to notice the saa even when they arent looking for it. semirhage vs. rand. why would she be "trying" to see the saa? i think it draws attention in general.

[Barid Bel Medar]

my question is this... if the "moridaim" theory is correct wouldnt moridin/taim have the saa? i dont think you would be able to hide it, and i definately think it would have been brought up in the books. people tend to notice the saa even when they arent looking for it. semirhage vs. rand. why would she be "trying" to see the saa? i think it draws attention in general.

 

Yes, you cant hide the saa.

 

If the theory was true, then Elayne would have seen the saa when Taim was there. Supposedly he used the TP. If it was true, she would have seen the saa.

[Val Mickey]

Can't the saa be disguised with Illusion?

[OptimusPrime]

my question is this... if the "moridaim" theory is correct wouldnt moridin/taim have the saa? i dont think you would be able to hide it, and i definately think it would have been brought up in the books. people tend to notice the saa even when they arent looking for it. semirhage vs. rand. why would she be "trying" to see the saa? i think it draws attention in general.

 

Yes, you cant hide the saa.

 

If the theory was true, then Elayne would have seen the saa when Taim was there. Supposedly he used the TP. If it was true, she would have seen the saa.

 

Moridin channels the True Power for his disguise, has the saa in his eyes, then ties the weave off, stops channeling the True Power. Disguise in place, no sa'a because no channeling, no flickering with movement because its not an illusion.

[haloun]

still the saa stays with you even when not channelling the tp dont they? dont we see a pov of ishy's or moridins where he is at shayol Ghul and he keeps commenting on the saa going across his vision? so even tying off a TP weave if it was moridaim he would still have the saa.

[OptimusPrime]

still the saa stays with you even when not channelling the tp dont they? dont we see a pov of ishy's or moridins where he is at shayol Ghul and he keeps commenting on the saa going across his vision? so even tying off a TP weave if it was moridaim he would still have the saa.

 

The sa'a have always been described from his PoV as showing when he channeled the True Power. We saw the sa'a in his eyes from someone elses PoV, but it seemed clear to me that Moridin deliberately channeled it so the sa'a would appear and the other Forsaken-Moghedien?-would see it, thus knowing they are speaking to a Chosen True Power wielder and not some randomer.

 

So the sa'a as far as we know does only appear when he channels it.