Taim

[Naffy]

He said that was why Rand misjudged Taims age, he didnt say that had anything to do with Basheres judgement.

 

Knowing Bashere, a Saldaean, would you say he wouldnt be able to recognise the guy he was specifically hunting if that guy had shaved? That was Taims excuse. Through the rest of the series we are shown that Bashere is quite a level headed man and I find it hard to believe he wouldnt recognise Taim under normal circumstances. Now that might be because Taim shaved AND he looked older from travelling, but I dont agree with that personally. What I think is that Moridin, in meeting Rand as Taim, basically tried to put doubt in Rands mind about Basheres... whats the word, competance? Rand wasnt phased in the long run because he trusts Bashere a lot. Yet the Darkfriend Bashere theories came from that remark, I think Ishamael did a good job to be honest. He didnt convinve Rand, but he made some fans think Bashere was a Darkfriend.

Throughout the series, Moridin/Ishy has been explicit in not wanting to kill Rand. This is still the case. If Moridin was Taim, why would he order Rochaid/Kisman/Osangar to kill Rand?

 

Ishamael/Moridin/Taim gave that order because he knew they wouldnt succeed, the Wheel wouldnt allow it. He wanted the Choeden Kal access key. The charade Moridin keeps up with this identity thing is there for the Darkfriend Ashaman as well, Ishamaels own miniatre game of "predicting the selfish" like Verin said the Dark One does. Ishamael doesnt need to have consistency in his orders among lesser minions, he just needs to tell them what they need to be told to get the job done. "Taims" order to kill Rand, and Moridins order to kill him if they had to to get the access key, the contradiction means nothing. What Moridin has portrayed there, through the two commands, is that the Choeden Kal is the most important thing.

 

I dont think Osan'gar was ordered to kill Rand. After all, Taim was surprised when Rand told him he had attacked.

 

Also, regarding the point on Moridin exclusively channeling TP yet still teaching in his private classes, well, Demandred gives them orders, why not have him teach them? Also Shaidar showed Elza weaves, without being able to channel saidar, did he not?

But what if they did succeed. The attack order came after the balefire mergin incident. If they did kill Rand, I think Moridin knows that he would be screwed due to the link. Thus why he was so irate that Semi fried Rand's hand. I don't think Moridin would take that risk. I am a firm beleiver in Taim is just Taim.

[Shero]

In FY 973, Ishamael came to Artur Hawkwing's court as Jalwin Moerad. He became Hawkwing's highest counsellor by summer FY 974, and held that position until Artur's death in FY 994. He set about wrecking that which Hawkwing had built, advising him to dismiss all Aes Sedai from his service, lay siege to Tar Valon, send his armies across the Aryth Ocean, and refuse Healing on his deathbed.

 

Jalwin Moerad had a volatile temper, and was half mad. He was frequently absent for long periods (which led Tamika, Artur's wife, to distrust him) and anyone who inquired about him closely died. He was openly contemptuous of Aes Sedai.

 

Sounds a bit like what Taim is doing also taking on the role as second to Rand but have there been any cases where Taim has been found to be missing from the Black Tower? Im not sure if I have come across many occasions when Taim has been MIA other than at the beginning when he would go recruiting but he later stopped doing this as he had others to do this.

[OptimusPrime]

He said that was why Rand misjudged Taims age, he didnt say that had anything to do with Basheres judgement.

 

Knowing Bashere, a Saldaean, would you say he wouldnt be able to recognise the guy he was specifically hunting if that guy had shaved? That was Taims excuse. Through the rest of the series we are shown that Bashere is quite a level headed man and I find it hard to believe he wouldnt recognise Taim under normal circumstances. Now that might be because Taim shaved AND he looked older from travelling, but I dont agree with that personally. What I think is that Moridin, in meeting Rand as Taim, basically tried to put doubt in Rands mind about Basheres... whats the word, competance? Rand wasnt phased in the long run because he trusts Bashere a lot. Yet the Darkfriend Bashere theories came from that remark, I think Ishamael did a good job to be honest. He didnt convinve Rand, but he made some fans think Bashere was a Darkfriend.

Throughout the series, Moridin/Ishy has been explicit in not wanting to kill Rand. This is still the case. If Moridin was Taim, why would he order Rochaid/Kisman/Osangar to kill Rand?

 

Ishamael/Moridin/Taim gave that order because he knew they wouldnt succeed, the Wheel wouldnt allow it. He wanted the Choeden Kal access key. The charade Moridin keeps up with this identity thing is there for the Darkfriend Ashaman as well, Ishamaels own miniatre game of "predicting the selfish" like Verin said the Dark One does. Ishamael doesnt need to have consistency in his orders among lesser minions, he just needs to tell them what they need to be told to get the job done. "Taims" order to kill Rand, and Moridins order to kill him if they had to to get the access key, the contradiction means nothing. What Moridin has portrayed there, through the two commands, is that the Choeden Kal is the most important thing.

 

I dont think Osan'gar was ordered to kill Rand. After all, Taim was surprised when Rand told him he had attacked.

 

Also, regarding the point on Moridin exclusively channeling TP yet still teaching in his private classes, well, Demandred gives them orders, why not have him teach them? Also Shaidar showed Elza weaves, without being able to channel saidar, did he not?

But what if they did succeed. The attack order came after the balefire mergin incident. If they did kill Rand, I think Moridin knows that he would be screwed due to the link. Thus why he was so irate that Semi fried Rand's hand. I don't think Moridin would take that risk.

 

Thats just the thing, I think Moridin knows all too well that confronting a Ta'veren head on just isnt going to happen. Regarding the link, yes I think this is his main reason for the order to not harm Rand, and the hand thing of course, but that to me only shows that he is willing to send 3rd agers after rand, because none of them are skillful enough to harm him. Semirhage broke her orders, hence her ability to rot.

 

I am a firm beleiver in Taim is just Taim.

 

Thats cool, we all have our own oppinions and whatnot, free countries and all that. Can I just ask you something though? Rands dark aura in TGS was the result of a Ta'veren being dark. That darkness was partly, but not entirely, down to Rands True Power access, yet the aura kicks in when the dark Ta'verenism kicks in, not when Rand channeled the True Power. In Winters Heart, Taim has that same aura, and conveniently only after Rand became connected to Moridin. Why do you think Taim has it, is he also a Ta'veren gone dark?

[OptimusPrime]

Bump

[Naffy]

He said that was why Rand misjudged Taims age, he didnt say that had anything to do with Basheres judgement.

 

Knowing Bashere, a Saldaean, would you say he wouldnt be able to recognise the guy he was specifically hunting if that guy had shaved? That was Taims excuse. Through the rest of the series we are shown that Bashere is quite a level headed man and I find it hard to believe he wouldnt recognise Taim under normal circumstances. Now that might be because Taim shaved AND he looked older from travelling, but I dont agree with that personally. What I think is that Moridin, in meeting Rand as Taim, basically tried to put doubt in Rands mind about Basheres... whats the word, competance? Rand wasnt phased in the long run because he trusts Bashere a lot. Yet the Darkfriend Bashere theories came from that remark, I think Ishamael did a good job to be honest. He didnt convinve Rand, but he made some fans think Bashere was a Darkfriend.

Throughout the series, Moridin/Ishy has been explicit in not wanting to kill Rand. This is still the case. If Moridin was Taim, why would he order Rochaid/Kisman/Osangar to kill Rand?

 

Ishamael/Moridin/Taim gave that order because he knew they wouldnt succeed, the Wheel wouldnt allow it. He wanted the Choeden Kal access key. The charade Moridin keeps up with this identity thing is there for the Darkfriend Ashaman as well, Ishamaels own miniatre game of "predicting the selfish" like Verin said the Dark One does. Ishamael doesnt need to have consistency in his orders among lesser minions, he just needs to tell them what they need to be told to get the job done. "Taims" order to kill Rand, and Moridins order to kill him if they had to to get the access key, the contradiction means nothing. What Moridin has portrayed there, through the two commands, is that the Choeden Kal is the most important thing.

 

I dont think Osan'gar was ordered to kill Rand. After all, Taim was surprised when Rand told him he had attacked.

 

Also, regarding the point on Moridin exclusively channeling TP yet still teaching in his private classes, well, Demandred gives them orders, why not have him teach them? Also Shaidar showed Elza weaves, without being able to channel saidar, did he not?

But what if they did succeed. The attack order came after the balefire mergin incident. If they did kill Rand, I think Moridin knows that he would be screwed due to the link. Thus why he was so irate that Semi fried Rand's hand. I don't think Moridin would take that risk.

 

Thats just the thing, I think Moridin knows all too well that confronting a Ta'veren head on just isnt going to happen. Regarding the link, yes I think this is his main reason for the order to not harm Rand, and the hand thing of course, but that to me only shows that he is willing to send 3rd agers after rand, because none of them are skillful enough to harm him. Semirhage broke her orders, hence her ability to rot.

 

I am a firm beleiver in Taim is just Taim.

 

Thats cool, we all have our own oppinions and whatnot, free countries and all that. Can I just ask you something though? Rands dark aura in TGS was the result of a Ta'veren being dark. That darkness was partly, but not entirely, down to Rands True Power access, yet the aura kicks in when the dark Ta'verenism kicks in, not when Rand channeled the True Power. In Winters Heart, Taim has that same aura, and conveniently only after Rand became connected to Moridin. Why do you think Taim has it, is he also a Ta'veren gone dark?

I've always thought Rand's dark aura/the food spoiling etc. was related to the "The land will be one with the dragon" prophecy and thus I agree with the dark Ta'verenism. As for Taim, I remember someone saying he hard a "dark aura" (I don't remember who) but I always related it more to him being so dangerous that he made the people feel that way. Could you point me to where in WH (maybe a quote?) that this is stated. My memory is kind of foggy on that one.

[mossman87]

i was reading the LoC today, and i read something about taim that made me start to wonder about his origins. its in the "lessons and teachers" chapter right at the end. he was talking about building an army for rand with the recruits who couldnt channle and he said

"its time you started raising an army of your own instead of depending on others. bashere could change his mind; he will, if queen tenobia tells him to. and who can know what what these SO-CALLED AIEL will do."

seems that one would have to be from the AOL to want to refer to the aiel in that maner. just a thought

 

'So-called Aiel' has been said only twice in the series. Once by Taim. Once by Moridin.

 

 

I still go with Ishy taught him, and Taim is Taim though.

[OptimusPrime]

He said that was why Rand misjudged Taims age, he didnt say that had anything to do with Basheres judgement.

 

Knowing Bashere, a Saldaean, would you say he wouldnt be able to recognise the guy he was specifically hunting if that guy had shaved? That was Taims excuse. Through the rest of the series we are shown that Bashere is quite a level headed man and I find it hard to believe he wouldnt recognise Taim under normal circumstances. Now that might be because Taim shaved AND he looked older from travelling, but I dont agree with that personally. What I think is that Moridin, in meeting Rand as Taim, basically tried to put doubt in Rands mind about Basheres... whats the word, competance? Rand wasnt phased in the long run because he trusts Bashere a lot. Yet the Darkfriend Bashere theories came from that remark, I think Ishamael did a good job to be honest. He didnt convinve Rand, but he made some fans think Bashere was a Darkfriend.

Throughout the series, Moridin/Ishy has been explicit in not wanting to kill Rand. This is still the case. If Moridin was Taim, why would he order Rochaid/Kisman/Osangar to kill Rand?

 

Ishamael/Moridin/Taim gave that order because he knew they wouldnt succeed, the Wheel wouldnt allow it. He wanted the Choeden Kal access key. The charade Moridin keeps up with this identity thing is there for the Darkfriend Ashaman as well, Ishamaels own miniatre game of "predicting the selfish" like Verin said the Dark One does. Ishamael doesnt need to have consistency in his orders among lesser minions, he just needs to tell them what they need to be told to get the job done. "Taims" order to kill Rand, and Moridins order to kill him if they had to to get the access key, the contradiction means nothing. What Moridin has portrayed there, through the two commands, is that the Choeden Kal is the most important thing.

 

I dont think Osan'gar was ordered to kill Rand. After all, Taim was surprised when Rand told him he had attacked.

 

Also, regarding the point on Moridin exclusively channeling TP yet still teaching in his private classes, well, Demandred gives them orders, why not have him teach them? Also Shaidar showed Elza weaves, without being able to channel saidar, did he not?

But what if they did succeed. The attack order came after the balefire mergin incident. If they did kill Rand, I think Moridin knows that he would be screwed due to the link. Thus why he was so irate that Semi fried Rand's hand. I don't think Moridin would take that risk.

 

Thats just the thing, I think Moridin knows all too well that confronting a Ta'veren head on just isnt going to happen. Regarding the link, yes I think this is his main reason for the order to not harm Rand, and the hand thing of course, but that to me only shows that he is willing to send 3rd agers after rand, because none of them are skillful enough to harm him. Semirhage broke her orders, hence her ability to rot.

 

I am a firm beleiver in Taim is just Taim.

 

Thats cool, we all have our own oppinions and whatnot, free countries and all that. Can I just ask you something though? Rands dark aura in TGS was the result of a Ta'veren being dark. That darkness was partly, but not entirely, down to Rands True Power access, yet the aura kicks in when the dark Ta'verenism kicks in, not when Rand channeled the True Power. In Winters Heart, Taim has that same aura, and conveniently only after Rand became connected to Moridin. Why do you think Taim has it, is he also a Ta'veren gone dark?

I've always thought Rand's dark aura/the food spoiling etc. was related to the "The land will be one with the dragon" prophecy and thus I agree with the dark Ta'verenism. As for Taim, I remember someone saying he hard a "dark aura" (I don't remember who) but I always related it more to him being so dangerous that he made the people feel that way. Could you point me to where in WH (maybe a quote?) that this is stated. My memory is kind of foggy on that one.

 

I'll try and dig it out this weekend and post it. Someone asked Brandon on Twitter about Taims aura though, not too long after teh BUT stuff starting taking over Dragonmount, and Brandons reply was that teh person who asked him that was the first person to notice Taims aura as far as Brandon knew. i thought the same as you myself first time round, that it was just a portrayal of Taims dangerousness, but teh talk of the BUT is what made me "realise" Taim is Moridin.

 

I'll post the quote when I find it.

[OptimusPrime]

He said that was why Rand misjudged Taims age, he didnt say that had anything to do with Basheres judgement.

 

Knowing Bashere, a Saldaean, would you say he wouldnt be able to recognise the guy he was specifically hunting if that guy had shaved? That was Taims excuse. Through the rest of the series we are shown that Bashere is quite a level headed man and I find it hard to believe he wouldnt recognise Taim under normal circumstances. Now that might be because Taim shaved AND he looked older from travelling, but I dont agree with that personally. What I think is that Moridin, in meeting Rand as Taim, basically tried to put doubt in Rands mind about Basheres... whats the word, competance? Rand wasnt phased in the long run because he trusts Bashere a lot. Yet the Darkfriend Bashere theories came from that remark, I think Ishamael did a good job to be honest. He didnt convinve Rand, but he made some fans think Bashere was a Darkfriend.

Throughout the series, Moridin/Ishy has been explicit in not wanting to kill Rand. This is still the case. If Moridin was Taim, why would he order Rochaid/Kisman/Osangar to kill Rand?

 

Ishamael/Moridin/Taim gave that order because he knew they wouldnt succeed, the Wheel wouldnt allow it. He wanted the Choeden Kal access key. The charade Moridin keeps up with this identity thing is there for the Darkfriend Ashaman as well, Ishamaels own miniatre game of "predicting the selfish" like Verin said the Dark One does. Ishamael doesnt need to have consistency in his orders among lesser minions, he just needs to tell them what they need to be told to get the job done. "Taims" order to kill Rand, and Moridins order to kill him if they had to to get the access key, the contradiction means nothing. What Moridin has portrayed there, through the two commands, is that the Choeden Kal is the most important thing.

 

I dont think Osan'gar was ordered to kill Rand. After all, Taim was surprised when Rand told him he had attacked.

 

Also, regarding the point on Moridin exclusively channeling TP yet still teaching in his private classes, well, Demandred gives them orders, why not have him teach them? Also Shaidar showed Elza weaves, without being able to channel saidar, did he not?

But what if they did succeed. The attack order came after the balefire mergin incident. If they did kill Rand, I think Moridin knows that he would be screwed due to the link. Thus why he was so irate that Semi fried Rand's hand. I don't think Moridin would take that risk.

 

Thats just the thing, I think Moridin knows all too well that confronting a Ta'veren head on just isnt going to happen. Regarding the link, yes I think this is his main reason for the order to not harm Rand, and the hand thing of course, but that to me only shows that he is willing to send 3rd agers after rand, because none of them are skillful enough to harm him. Semirhage broke her orders, hence her ability to rot.

 

I am a firm beleiver in Taim is just Taim.

 

Thats cool, we all have our own oppinions and whatnot, free countries and all that. Can I just ask you something though? Rands dark aura in TGS was the result of a Ta'veren being dark. That darkness was partly, but not entirely, down to Rands True Power access, yet the aura kicks in when the dark Ta'verenism kicks in, not when Rand channeled the True Power. In Winters Heart, Taim has that same aura, and conveniently only after Rand became connected to Moridin. Why do you think Taim has it, is he also a Ta'veren gone dark?

I've always thought Rand's dark aura/the food spoiling etc. was related to the "The land will be one with the dragon" prophecy and thus I agree with the dark Ta'verenism. As for Taim, I remember someone saying he hard a "dark aura" (I don't remember who) but I always related it more to him being so dangerous that he made the people feel that way. Could you point me to where in WH (maybe a quote?) that this is stated. My memory is kind of foggy on that one.

 

I'll try and dig it out this weekend and post it. Someone asked Brandon on Twitter about Taims aura though, not too long after teh BUT stuff starting taking over Dragonmount, and Brandons reply was that teh person who asked him that was the first person to notice Taims aura as far as Brandon knew. i thought the same as you myself first time round, that it was just a portrayal of Taims dangerousness, but teh talk of the BUT is what made me "realise" Taim is Moridin.

 

I'll post the quote when I find it.

 

Behold.

 

Winters Heart paperback p26, Snow (Prologue), Elaynes PoV

 

Taim strode in the room as tough he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue and gold dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rands arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warders deadly grace, but shadows seem to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violencethat seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

 

Now lets look at what Tam says about Rand in TGS, when hes berating Cadsuane.

b

The Gathering Storm hardback p746, Reading the Commentary

 

"Watch your tongue, Aes Sedai," Tam snarled. "Have you seen him? The entire room seemed to grow darker when he entered. And that face-Ive seen more emotion in the eues of a corpse! What has happened to my son?"

 

So yeah, the room grows darker around them both. If that isnt enough, ask yourself this; do you imagine that Rand and Elayne could both judge the height of a man with reasonably accuracy, do you think that Rand with his unusual height and Elayne comparing someone to Rand could come to the same judgement of height for the same person, ie Taim? If you think yes, then look at this again, from Elaynes PoV above:

 

Winters Heart p26, Elaynes PoV

He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand

 

And then look at what Rand thinks of Taim when they first meet:

 

Lord of Chaos p93, Rands PoV

"Tumad emerged into the sunlight first, then a black-haired man of slightly above average height whose dark face and tilted eyes, hookws nose and high cheekbones, marked him another Saldaean

 

Throughout the books we have seen Rand see tall people, note them as tall, yet not quite as tall as himself. He knows hes taller than most tall people, so someone almost as tall as him would not be considered only "slightly above average height," they would be considered tall. Elayne knows Rands appearance, ie height, pretty well Id say, Id think her judge would be reasonably accurate on the matter. This is not a continuity error, the characters PoVs are not wrong, they are judging the heights correctly, there is a genuine inconsistency with Taims height. Either Taim had a growing spurt in his late twenties, or, taking into account this height thing and every single other thing you can think of that is unusual about Taim, including the dark aura, his hatred of Aes Sedai, his caution over mentioning the size of the White Tower to Rand (LoC p115), his knowing of the saidin test, sa'amgreal, recognising a gateway as Traveling without being told, casually mentioning Demandreds name to Rand when Aes Sedai are coming to meet him, the red on black in Taims apartments which is in line with Moridin and his musings of the Fisher King where he notes he plays both sides of this war, when the Black Tower which is led by Taim uses the signet of a fist holding lightning, the Stormleader titles of the Darkfriend Ashaman... What do you get?

 

Im 99.99% sure we have never seen Taim be himself, the Taim we see onscreen was always Moridin, or at best the change was made at some point in Lord of Chaos but Im with the first option. Its a True Power disguise, which would explain why nobody can sense it and possibly explain the height thing, a True Power disguise which we can figure out once people eventually start believing it actually changes the appearance, because Taim has been touched and the disguise holds.

 

Taim is Moridin.

[OptimusPrime]

In FY 973, Ishamael came to Artur Hawkwing's court as Jalwin Moerad. He became Hawkwing's highest counsellor by summer FY 974, and held that position until Artur's death in FY 994. He set about wrecking that which Hawkwing had built, advising him to dismiss all Aes Sedai from his service, lay siege to Tar Valon, send his armies across the Aryth Ocean, and refuse Healing on his deathbed.

 

Jalwin Moerad had a volatile temper, and was half mad. He was frequently absent for long periods (which led Tamika, Artur's wife, to distrust him) and anyone who inquired about him closely died. He was openly contemptuous of Aes Sedai.

 

Sounds a bit like what Taim is doing also taking on the role as second to Rand but have there been any cases where Taim has been found to be missing from the Black Tower? Im not sure if I have come across many occasions when Taim has been MIA other than at the beginning when he would go recruiting but he later stopped doing this as he had others to do this.

 

Sorry Shero I missed this. Good observation about Jalwin. What I wonder about are the special classes Taim holds, I wonder if these are Darkfriend briefings/teachings with Demandred, people not included think its Taim in there, this would give Moridin a chance to leave and attend business elsewhere, like at the Fortress in the Blight or meetings at Shayol Ghul or whatever. Sort of like, Demandred teaches, Travels to the Blight fortress, and then "introduces" people like Kisman to Moridin over there when they reach a certain stage in heir training or whatever. Secretly Moridin is running both strongholds but only Demandred and, in my oppinion Osan'gar, knew who Taim really is, none of the other Ashaman

[Duskfire]

If Taim is Moridin, why was Osan`gar sent to the Blacktower at all? And why was Taim angry when Rand chose Osan`gar to be one of his bodyguards. Wouldn't that be part of the Shadows plan? Also, why give seperate messages to the darkfriend Asha`man? Wouldn't that just be potentially confusing them as to who they should obey, in Taim, Demandred or Moridin?

[Mik]

For the record, I think it's more then obvious that Moridin is transmigrated in Taim's body.

For some more info on that, you can see the Taim-thread in the structured section & an old thread called 'Equal yet not'.

 

If Taim is Moridin, why was Osan`gar sent to the Blacktower at all?

Because the Nae'Blis didn't want the other Chosen to find out he positioned himself at the head of the Black Tower. Ishamael has always tried to keep the Chosen 'in the dark' about his motives/ plans in the greater game. To him, the Chosen are nothing more then pawns. By positioning Osan'gar at the Tower, none of the other Chosen has any reason to wonder if Moridin was taking a more direct hand in matters, like they might if there wasn't a Chosen there that they knew about.

 

And why was Taim angry when Rand chose Osan`gar to be one of his bodyguards.

Because like Ishamael/ Moridin well knows, the other Chosen can't be trusted one bit. Moridin knows they're petty, selfish excuses for human beings at heart who bow before the Nae'blis while plotting to backstab eachother, or follow their own agenda when they feel they can get away with it.

It would be far safer to have a new Dreadlord near Rand, who would be far less arrogant and powerfull then one of the (other) Chosen.

 

Wouldn't that be part of the Shadows plan?

Taim/ Moridin had better plans. When Rand choose Dashiva instead of a more suitable Dreadlord, "Taim" showed his true colors for a split-second (the rage) and a second later he was incorperating Dashiva in his plans. Let's just call it 'the next best thing, but not what Taim/ Moridin had in mind'.

 

Also, why give seperate messages to the darkfriend Asha`man?

Because "Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large."

Throughout all the books, it is noted by all of the other Chosen how Ishamaels/ Moridins commands somtimes make no sense at all. He's literally called "more then half mad and less then half human" (the Chosen didn't know HOW right they were IMO!).

It's all about chaos.

 

Wouldn't that just be potentially confusing them as to who they should obey, in Taim, Demandred or Moridin?

Like I said "Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large".

 

 

You shouldn't be worrying about all these small matters.

What you should be wondering about is how Min could have a Viewing about both Taim his Past and Future.

;)

[OptimusPrime]

Also another reason I think Dashiva was sent is so that during the Dreadlord recruitment they have a Chosen the Dreadlords arent aware of at all. There are four roles filled; "Taim" recruits, and does manages the Dreadlords in public, in front of the non-Darkfriends. Demandred appears to be Taims boss in the eyes of the Darkfriend Ashaman. Moridin, with Taims original appearance showing and not the public True Power disguise, is openly acting as the Nae'blis to the Dreadlords using the name Moridin. And Osan'gar isnt known to be Chosen, only as a high up Darkfriend according to Elza I think, so he is the rat, the one who would be telling Moridin what the Dreadlords are talking about. The snitch, or that was the plan, until Rand picked him.

 

"Taim" = Recruiter, day to day management

Demandred - teacher and Operations Manager on Moridins behalf, during Taims private classes, freeing up Moridin for foreign affairs.

Moridin = What it says on the tin, his name is known to the Dreadlords as Nae'blis, yet still not that he is Taim, as Kisman portrays.

Osan'gar = a fly on the wall. But on Rands wall now, not the Dreadlords wall like Moridin wanted and was annoyed when he didnt get it

 

So I think Kisman went through something like this:

 

Taim: "Kill the Dragon Reborn."

Kisman: *remembers Moridins no-kill order from earlier, which he may or may not have heard directly*

Demandred: "Kill al'Thor! Kill him!"

...

Kisman: "Erm, boss? Those two are telling us to kill Rand, but you said earlier not to..."

Moridin: *Brief thought* Well I know m connected to him but these lot are useless, they already failed once, even I failed... several times...* "I want his possessions. If you must kill him to get them so be it. *mumble mumble if Rand dies could papa dark still resurrect me?"

Kisman: "Ok that counts as a do whatever I want, the other two said kill him, so me and Rochaid are guna kick his ass."

 

If Taim isnt Moridin, why does he have the black aura? It relates to True Power access, we have only seen two other people have it and both were True Power users. Taims appearance, between early Lord of Chaos and early Winters Heart, changes. He gets taller. Who else have we had comments on, about their appearance changing? I seem to remember a little convenient example in TGS where Graendal notes that Moridin is beginning to look like Rand. Where is all this evidence pointing, if not to Taim being Moridin?

 

Seriously. The ammount of evidence is ridiculous.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Also another reason I think Dashiva was sent is so that during the Dreadlord recruitment they have a Chosen the Dreadlords arent aware of at all. There are four roles filled; "Taim" recruits, and does manages the Dreadlords in public, in front of the non-Darkfriends. Demandred appears to be Taims boss in the eyes of the Darkfriend Ashaman. Moridin, with Taims original appearance showing and not the public True Power disguise, is openly acting as the Nae'blis to the Dreadlords using the name Moridin. And Osan'gar isnt known to be Chosen, only as a high up Darkfriend according to Elza I think, so he is the rat, the one who would be telling Moridin what the Dreadlords are talking about. The snitch, or that was the plan, until Rand picked him.

 

"Taim" = Recruiter, day to day management

Demandred - teacher and Operations Manager on Moridins behalf, during Taims private classes, freeing up Moridin for foreign affairs.

Moridin = What it says on the tin, his name is known to the Dreadlords as Nae'blis, yet still not that he is Taim, as Kisman portrays.

Osan'gar = a fly on the wall. But on Rands wall now, not the Dreadlords wall like Moridin wanted and was annoyed when he didnt get it

 

So I think Kisman went through something like this:

 

Taim: "Kill the Dragon Reborn."

Kisman: *remembers Moridins no-kill order from earlier, which he may or may not have heard directly*

Demandred: "Kill al'Thor! Kill him!"

...

Kisman: "Erm, boss? Those two are telling us to kill Rand, but you said earlier not to..."

Moridin: *Brief thought* Well I know m connected to him but these lot are useless, they already failed once, even I failed... several times...* "I want his possessions. If you must kill him to get them so be it. *mumble mumble if Rand dies could papa dark still resurrect me?"

Kisman: "Ok that counts as a do whatever I want, the other two said kill him, so me and Rochaid are guna kick his ass."

 

If Taim isnt Moridin, why does he have the black aura? It relates to True Power access, we have only seen two other people have it and both were True Power users. Taims appearance, between early Lord of Chaos and early Winters Heart, changes. He gets taller. Who else have we had comments on, about their appearance changing? I seem to remember a little convenient example in TGS where Graendal notes that Moridin is beginning to look like Rand. Where is all this evidence pointing, if not to Taim being Moridin?

 

Seriously. The ammount of evidence is ridiculous.

 

Everyone gets the point. You have supplied your evidence. Let it go, we will find out. Let others speculate without having to be beaten with Moridin/Taim theory.

 

I realise that you are mostly replying to others debating your theory, so thats fair enough.

 

Oh, and sorry for sounding like a Mod, jsut gets annoying

[OptimusPrime]

Lol no worries. Wasnt trying to bludgeon, just to get people to take the idea seriously instead of acting like its ridiculous.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Lol no worries. Wasnt trying to bludgeon, just to get people to take the idea seriously instead of acting like its ridiculous.

 

 

hahaha, yeah, after I posted i realised that it was mostly replying. So i kinda look like an idiot. Sorry bout that hahaha.

 

But i left it there for others aswell.

[KefkaPalazzo]

What confuses me about the Taimdin theory, or really any Forsaken identity theory now that I think about it, is why some use a disguise and others don't. I can see some using it bacause they don't look like they'd be from around wherever they are (the pale, blonde Graendal in Arad Domon, where dark skin and black hair is the norm, for example), but for everyone else, there is no need.

 

Everyone (that they know about) who knows what they look like is 3000 years dead. In fact, this was kind of the reason behind the Taimandred theory to begin with. LTT thought he recognized Taim as Demendred, since they look alike. So why do they use disguises at all?

 

If Taim is Moridin, he MUST be using a disguise, since in TGS Rand and Moridin met, and rand recognized him as "that face in my head" and not "that guy I put in charge of a thousand walking weapons of mass destruction." Why is he using one? At the time Taim was introduced, NOBODY, not even the readers, would have recognized him as a reincarnated Forsaken.

 

I might make a different topic about this kind of thing when I can form a more coherent argument.

[Barid Bel Medar]

What confuses me about the Taimdin™ theory, or really any Forsaken identity theory now that I think about it, is why some use a disguise and others don't. I can see some using it bacause they don't look like they'd be from around wherever they are (the pale, blonde Graendal in Arad Domon, where dark skin and black hair is the norm, for example), but for everyone else, there is no need.

 

Everyone (that they know about) who knows what they look like is 3000 years dead. In fact, this was kind of the reason behind the Taimandred theory to begin with. LTT thought he recognized Taim as Demendred, since they look alike. So why do they use disguises at all?

 

If Taim is Moridin, he MUST be using a disguise, since in TGS Rand and Moridin met, and rand recognized him as "that face in my head" and not "that guy I put in charge of a thousand walking weapons of mass destruction." Why is he using one? At the time Taim was introduced, NOBODY, not even the readers, would have recognized him as a reincarnated Forsaken.

 

I might make a different topic about this kind of thing when I can form a more coherent argument.

 

I think that would be best, it is a credible theory by Drekka (and others, sorry if I dont know) and even though I dont agree, I can see how it is good, its definitely worth making a topic about

[OptimusPrime]

Lol no worries. Wasnt trying to bludgeon, just to get people to take the idea seriously instead of acting like its ridiculous.

 

 

hahaha, yeah, after I posted i realised that it was mostly replying. So i kinda look like an idiot. Sorry bout that hahaha.

 

But i left it there for others aswell.

 

No worries dude Ive done it plenty of times :)

[Duskfire]

Because the Nae'Blis didn't want the other Chosen to find out he positioned himself at the head of the Black Tower. Ishamael has always tried to keep the Chosen 'in the dark' about his motives/ plans in the greater game. To him, the Chosen are nothing more then pawns. By positioning Osan'gar at the Tower, none of the other Chosen has any reason to wonder if Moridin was taking a more direct hand in matters, like they might if there wasn't a Chosen there that they knew about.

 

Seems a huge waste to use on a Chosen; pawns they may be, but the DO still considers them useful, especially since Osa`ngar had just been given a new body. Basically your implying that SH, and by extension the DO, would care enough about concealing Ishamaels activites enough to plant a decoy, when really all SH needed to do was to inform everyone Taim was a darkfriend that was of limits.

 

If Taim isnt Moridin, why does he have the black aura? It relates to True Power access, we have only seen two other people have it and both were True Power users. Taims appearance, between early Lord of Chaos and early Winters Heart, changes. He gets taller. Who else have we had comments on, about their appearance changing? I seem to remember a little convenient example in TGS where Graendal notes that Moridin is beginning to look like Rand. Where is all this evidence pointing, if not to Taim being Moridin?

 

Seriously. The ammount of evidence is ridiculous.

 

The amount of evidence that Taim is not a normal darkfriend is ridiculous yes, however the evidence concerning Taim being Moridin is not. Its there, but ridiculous is a bit extreme. I am still not entirely convinced that Taims height is constantly changing as some seem to think; it could simply be a matter of characters perception, or maybe even the simple fact of him making himself taller, in which the same way channelers can. After all, he would certainly have cause to be slightly more intimidating to Elayne.

[yoniy0]

@Ashaman Kovan this thread isn't locked because no other Taim threads are currently active. Unless I'm missing something?

 

@Drekka Mort, I don't know why you think Flynn might be a Sparker. The man is OLD, dude. If he were a Sparker, he'd already have channeled, or he'd be dead.

 

@nrm5021 that point is frequently used to suggest that Taim has had some training by a Forsaken. Or that he was Demandred, before RJ shot that theory down.

 

And @Lynander, that would totally rock. But I just can't see it. Those rogue AM were surprised that Demandred didn't know of Taim's orders. Plus the whole 'lord of chaos' quote thingy. That's enough for me.

[OptimusPrime]

@Drekka Mort, I don't know why you think Flynn might be a Sparker. The man is OLD, dude. If he were a Sparker, he'd already have channeled, or he'd be dead.

 

Methinks you misunderstood what I said about Flynn. I never said he was a sparker, the only thing I meant to put across in involving Flynn here at all is that Rands judgement in this scene is terrible, Taims testing of Flynns channeling and Rands thoughts on Taim durnig this are the point. I'll explain it again, lets look at the test first.

 

When Taim tests Flynn, they do the test, Rand feels the echo, but Taim continues. Now, as we know about sparkers and learners from both interviews and Aes Sedai, we know that Flynn cannot possibly be a sparker because of his age, this makes it clear that the echo Rand felt was the signal for a learner, not a sparker. Yet Taim isnt quite finished with the test, he keeps feeling for another two minutes which yields nothing more. So we can work out that if Flynn had been a sparker, that extra two minutes would have shown another sign of some sort. The point Im getting to hear though, is that because Rand doesnt understand all this like we do, because he doesnt know about learners or sparkers as much as we do, he just thinks he felt the echo/resonance before Taim did, when in actual fact we have worked out that Taim will have sensed it. In all this, Rand thinks he was faster than Taim, which to Rand means Taim doesnt know everything, which in turn makes him less likely to be anyone other than Taim in Rands world of ultimate ignorance. I only showed that purely to show that Rands ignorance is hard at play in this scene, his judgement is flawed to such a degree that... well, he looks very very stupid. Anyway, now that we can see how much of an idiot hes being at that time here is the more serious mistake.

 

Bashere voices his suspicion, "You're Taim?" and hes been sent here to get that dude, he shouldnt be saying that under any circymstances, Bashere isnt daft so a clean shave and a bit of hard travelling shouldnt have made Taim look unrecognisable to Bashere really. Rand doesnt like it, but when Taim actually channels with the test, the fact that Taim channeled reassures Rand that Taim is Taim, despite Basheres doubt. Rand... is really stupid here. Taims channeling aparantly proves Taim is Taim. And then Rand tells Taim the others who might channel here could be Forsaken. The only reassurance Rand gives himself that Taim ISNT Forsaken is that Taim can channel, and that is AFTER Bashere didnt recognise Taim.

 

The term ignorance is bliss is the exact opposite of Rands situation here.

[yoniy0]

Why do you gather that Taim would test for a Sparker, though? If it's clear to anyone involved that Damer isn't one, why waste the time? I'm with Rand on that one.

And... Bashere did come around, eventually. How can you fault Rand for believing Taim, when Bashere does as well?

[OptimusPrime]

Taim would waste the time because hes trying to convince Rand hes only met a few other men that can channel, not done an extensive study on when a channeler usually starts channeling.

 

Bashere came around when Taim told him some nasty stuff he did to Basheres loved ones. We dont know when that happened for one thing, and I cant pinpoint in my theory when exactly Taim became Moridin. Memories come from a variety of external sources in this series though, Im willing to bet there are ways Moridin could have access to the memories of the guy whose body he took, what with Rand having memories of his past lives and whatnot. I cant put it clearer than I have, would a man really be sent with nine thousand cavalry to hunt down one single person, if there was a chance that a little dirt and a shave would throw him off? Bashere had a very clear view of Taim when he saw him in Lord of Chaos, so the very fact that Bashere said in the first place is a big alarm, given the circumstances of his arrival. Look at it again. He was sent with nine thousand men. To get that one man. What kind of impression of Basheres intelligence do you get from his introduction? Clearly he is ballsy, and yet he shows that he knows what hes about. He threw a knife at Rand knowing that he wouldnt hit him. throughout the rest of the books he proceeds to portray a level headedness not many characters share. Not recognising a national terrorist he was specifically sent abroad to kill, with a fair sized army, because the guy had a bit of grome on his face and a recent shave, that doesnt sound like a mistake Bashere would make. Not after him being portayed to be a sound minded, sensible dude for the rest of the books. Id go with Basheres judgement there, all it takes is for a cocky remark about something personal to Bashere to get that kind of reaction, and Ishamael is all about that kind of thing. If he has to "prove" something to you, you arent going to like it.

[yoniy0]

I'm sorry to press this issue, but which way is it? Does Bashere only have a fleeting knowledge of Taim's appearances (in which case why put any stock in his initial doubts) or must he know Taim through and through to have been sent after him (then, why doubt that he eventually came to believe Taim is who he claims to be)? Is he just confused (so we shouldn't trust his doubts), or does he possess a keen intellect (then it would be weird for him to be swayed by mere mention of something the real Taim did)? You can't have it both ways.

[DPT24]

Taim/Moridin seems unlikely to say the least... It's possible, but it doesn't seem very likely. More likley, if he is a darkfriend, either A. he's a major dreadlord/3rd age Chosen or B. he's Moridin's or Demordred's lacky. Both options makes sense. Moridin as Taim seems like it would take too much of Mordin's time, and it's been implied, although the Forsaken aren't the best judges of what's going on, that Mordin spends most of his time in the Blight in that massive tower, and uses Cyandane and Moghedien to do most of his errands in the world. It seems like Moridin is the "evil mastermind" and Taim is more of a second/third tier Darkfriend, important, powerful, but not the Na'blis. And I don't see why Moridin would even try and do it, what would it gain that couldn't be gained that's worth the risk Mordin's taking to do that, that couldn't be done by someone else? As the Big Unoticed Thing, though, I will say the Mordin/Taim thing is possible, but seems pretty unlikely