What's In The Future For Graendal?

[Duskfire]

As Luckers pointed out, the problem with a timed compulsion is that it evaporated straight after the balefire scene. Not only would Graendal have to have amazing foresight, she would have to also predict that Rand would balefire the entire palace down, something his close friends were immensely shocked that he did. Theres just no way shes still alive.

 

There were similiar discussions about Sammael as well until RJ basically ended all hope for Sammael. I wouldnt be surprised if Sanderson either does the same thing after the next book or confirms in ToM that she is indeed completely dead.

[DPT24]

  I really think she's dead, but as pointed out, ToM will be like CoT and so there could still be a PoV from her.  I guess she could have survived, but I think most likely she died, I'm not sure anyone could have expected balefiring an entire palace.  When Rand's attacked in PoD they only balefired one room.  So would expect an entire palace Balefired?

[Sharaman]

As Luckers pointed out, the problem with a timed compulsion is that it evaporated straight after the balefire scene. Not only would Graendal have to have amazing foresight, she would have to also predict that Rand would balefire the entire palace down, something his close friends were immensely shocked that he did. Theres just no way shes still alive.

 

There were similiar discussions about Sammael as well until RJ basically ended all hope for Sammael. I wouldnt be surprised if Sanderson either does the same thing after the next book or confirms in ToM that she is indeed completely dead.

 

Nyn wasn't continuously examining Ramshalam as Rand BF-ed the castle. We don't know that the C disappeared exactly as the Castle disappeared. In fact, we don't even know if it faded before he BF-ed the castle.

Rand-Nyn-Min etc have a short conversation post BF before she examines Ramshalam for the second time.

So there is a gap between the first and second exam and between BF and second exam. 

 

The timing could therefore, just be luck and approximation.

G may happen to have set a C that takes about the length of time to evaporate as roughly coincides with the whole BF episode.

 

Point is, Rand's "test" is flawed as a scientific experiment.

It would have been more rigorous if he had asked Nyn to continuously look at Ramshalam's C as he BF-ed the castle. That's the only way he'd know if the evaporation was exactly coincident.

As it stand, it tells you nothing about G's continued state of health.

 

 

[Duskfire]

As Luckers pointed out, the problem with a timed compulsion is that it evaporated straight after the balefire scene. Not only would Graendal have to have amazing foresight, she would have to also predict that Rand would balefire the entire palace down, something his close friends were immensely shocked that he did. Theres just no way shes still alive.

 

There were similiar discussions about Sammael as well until RJ basically ended all hope for Sammael. I wouldnt be surprised if Sanderson either does the same thing after the next book or confirms in ToM that she is indeed completely dead.

 

Nyn wasn't continuously examining Ramshalam as Rand BF-ed the castle. We don't know that the C disappeared exactly as the Castle disappeared. In fact, we don't even know if it faded before he BF-ed the castle.

Rand-Nyn-Min etc have a short conversation post BF before she examines Ramshalam for the second time.

So there is a gap between the first and second exam and between BF and second exam. 

 

The timing could therefore, just be luck and approximation.

G may happen to have set a C that takes about the length of time to evaporate as roughly coincides with the whole BF episode.

 

Point is, Rand's "test" is flawed as a scientific experiment.

It would have been more rigorous if he had asked Nyn to continuously look at Ramshalam's C as he BF-ed the castle. That's the only way he'd know if the evaporation was exactly coincident.

As it stand, it tells you nothing about G's continued state of health.

 

 

 

Okay, Graendal could have been extremely lucky. But still, no one has answered how Graendal would have known Rand would do something that is completely against his nature and balefire an entire palace. That is the one flaw in anyones argument that Graendal is still alive. The Forsaken knew he struggled to kill women; yet all of a sudden Rand shows up, kills a whole bunch of other random people to try and get at Graendal, and Graendal was meant to be able to predict that?

[Sharaman]

She can't predict that Rand is going to BF everything. 

But she does know for sure, courtesy Ramshalam, that Rand has located her and he is planning something obscure.

She is also aware that he has an open gate within walking distance of her bolthole.

It would not be very out of character for her to start running immediately since she has no intention of getting into an OP battle.

One clue - the gate and the surrounding forest wasn't under surveillance and R wasn't being followed either, unless the Maidens seriously messed up their recon.

If G's going to sit around in Natrin's Barrow with an open Gate to Rand around the corner, would she really let Ramshalam go without having him followed?

For me, that swings it somewhat in favour of her having relocated even as Ramshalam is released.

 

 

[Luckers]

As Luckers pointed out, the problem with a timed compulsion is that it evaporated straight after the balefire scene. Not only would Graendal have to have amazing foresight, she would have to also predict that Rand would balefire the entire palace down, something his close friends were immensely shocked that he did. Theres just no way shes still alive.

 

 

Firstly, I then went on to point out the ways that she could have achieved the precise collapse of an unravelling web. I do agree its highly unlikely she could simply guess the time, but there are ways around it.

 

Secondly, though I'm falling in on the side that she is in fact dead, there are many ways she could have survived. They aren't even unlikely. You may believe she is dead, but these declarations I'm seeing that 'there's simply no way she could still live' are baseless, and a little disrespectful to those that think she is. If you have points to make dismissing the logic of her being alive (as layed out in the first post), then go for it, or alternatively simple state your personal belief that she is dead, but don't dismiss an argument out of hand.

 

 

[Sid]

I suppose if Graendal was smart enough to anticipate that particular test she may have had a way to unravel the weave so that it would collapse after a single delving (possibly making it seem more delicate of a weave when Nyneave checked).  If she somehow predicted that, it's likely she would have split right away after sending the sap on his way.  Saying she's 100% dead when Brandon won't confirm it seems a bit premature.  Hell people even had 'Sammeal is alive' theories years after RJ confirmed his death.

 

However I find it highly unlikely that she could have deduced the exact nature of Rand's plan simply from hearing what the other Forsaken, her spies, and the rumors of the world tell her about him even with a fancy psych degree from the AoL.  He kind of went off his previous radar range with this new strategy. 

[water_seeker]

Remember Grendal has no way of knowing Rands plan.

 

 

Except Rand tells Ramshalan what he's going to do.

 

Rand purposely picks the biggest bumbling idiot he can find.  Sends him off telling him he needs allies, go see if who is at the palace can help.

 

 

Doesn't matter if he's an idiot.  With compulsion Greandal could get whatever info she wants.

 

Grendal knowing he is from Rand has to compel him (you could say she was compeled to compel him).  She doesn't know her hideaway is compromisied

 

Except all Ram has to do is tell her that Rand opened a Gateway and this was the first place he came...

 

and even if she tried to get information from Rands messenger he is to dumb to even understand he is being duped.

 

 

He doesn't have to be smart to be used.  He just has to tell her what Rand said.

 

Grendal is toast.  People who know they are smarter than everyone else are easy to fool.  You just have to let them see through your ruse.  Once they see what they expect they never look deeper.

 

This isn't always true.

 

Also, Rand being willing to balefire an entire palace full of people is completely out of character.  He hasn't even been willing to kill a woman up until now.  No way to expect that even if she thinks he might know where she is.  Which she doesn't.

 

She knows he's growing more unstable.  He could be capable of anything.  She's smart so she knows she can't trust to what he's done, because he's unpredictable now.  Oh yeah, it's totally possible by this point that she's found out about Semi.

 

I can't say I loved the way she died after all the build up she had in the last several books, but I am pretty sure she is toast.

 

I don't like it either, but I don't think she's dead.  I was one of the first to put out a Graendel is alive theory.

 

As for everyone who says she couldn't know that Rand would destroy the whole fortress I give you this:

 

She won't fight me head-on, yet if I destroy her fortress in a surprise attack, I risk letting her slip away and never knowing if I've finished her.

 

He TELLS her he's going to destroy the whole fortress.

[Charlz Guybon]

Luckers, couldn't she also have set the web to unravel after being delved?

[OptimusPrime]

Luckers, couldn't she also have set the web to unravel after being delved?

 

This is what I was thinking as one of the possibilities.

[Sharaman]

What would you expect Graendal, or any normal person to do, if they discovered a deadly enemy had located them and opened a Gate in close proximity to their HQ?

They would immediately put the Gate under observation, put their defensive forces on high alert, and follow the emissary back to see where he goes and what he does.

Graendal does none of these.

To my mind, the only reason why she would do none of these things is because she decided to scarper.

 

 

[Luckers]

Luckers, couldn't she also have set the web to unravel after being delved?

 

Yeah, I don't see why not. Solid thought.

[Duskfire]

I have no doubt she intended to flee as soon as Rand showed himself; he even thought she would, thus the drastic measures. However the timing of all of it just makes Graendal the luckiest person ever. And it still comes down to the same problem; for her to even care about placing a timed compulsion on Ramshalan, she would have had to know Rand was intending to balefire everything, then create some sort of temporary compulsion to make it appear as if she was dead. The timing was basically perfect.

 

I am not discounting shes still alive, I guess anything is possible, especially in fantasy. However, I find it so extremely unlikely to me its on the same level as Slayer killing Asmodean :P

[Luckers]

However the timing of all of it just makes Graendal the luckiest person ever. And it still comes down to the same problem; for her to even care about placing a timed compulsion on Ramshalan, she would have had to know Rand was intending to balefire everything, then create some sort of temporary compulsion to make it appear as if she was dead. The timing was basically perfect.

 

No, it needn't be. Re-read the first post. I covered all these points. And I mean literally each one of the points you stated has its own Bolded Subheading.

 

I'm on the same side as you Duskfire. I think she's probably dead. But you raising these things here as if they are not only new but unchallengeable is poor form.

[Paerish Swar]

Ok, let's talk about the effects of the balefire.

 

We need to look at more than just the "disappearance" of the Compulsion in Ramshalan's mind.  We need to analyze how the whole world warped.

 

The Gathering Storm: A Force of Light - Min's POV

Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air.  It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about.  The forest around them. . .seemed to warp and shake.  It was as if the world itself were groaning in agony.  It snapped back, but Min could still feel that tension.  In that instant, it seemed as if the very substance of the world had been near to breaking.

and a few pages later from Sorilea's POV in Bandar Eban:

We felt the world warping from here, but did not know what had caused it.

 

The majority, if not all, of the people in Natrin's Barrow had little or no effect on the world for the last many months.  (Most) All were so heavily compelled that they were useless for anything except serving Graendal in her palace.

 

From Sorilea's POV she said that they all felt the world warp from all the way in Bandar Eban.  If my understanding of the effects of balefire is even remotely correct, that should only be possible if there were someone in the palace that had actually performed actions across Arad Doman over the past few months.  How would hundreds of people who's only actions for the past few months were doing acrobatics, sweeping floors, mooning over Graendal and guarding palace walls in one confined, out of the way spot manage to effect the nature of the pattern in Bandar Eban?  Or the whole World?

 

Now, I assume, even just to have that many threads burned that far back in the same instant might create some kind of "vacuum" in the pattern that would seriously destabilize it for a moment and make it warp or recoil or something to the degree that we see.  But the way that it is described makes me think there is more to it.  Natrin's Barrow is so remote, the individuals balefired in it so useless, so inactive for so long - of course, excepting Graendal herself - that I'm not sure we can assume that the balefire would have effected so much if Graendal hadn't fallen victim to it.

 

I know this point is tenuous at best, but the idea that Graendal is toast is much more straightforward than the idea that she is somehow still alive.  If she somehow managed to stay alive we are forced to make conjecture after conjecture as to how that could be.

 

She would have to have been able to foresee exactly what Rand was planning; she would have to have known that there was a woman with Rand at that very moment who knew how to delve for Compulsion; she would have had to time the Compulsion to dissipate exactly at the right moment, or to have used another female channeler to do it for her (who she possibly had to train to use Compulsion?) and let her, whoever she might be, die by balefire; she would likely have had to have some heretofore unknown individuals in the palace at the moment it was balefired who had themselves been active across Arad Domon effecting events in the last few months; and probably even more I can't think of right now to make such an escape plausible and not contradict the facts we do know.

 

That Graendal is toast is the simplest, most direct, conclusion to the events in tGS.

 

But. . .I agree with Luckers (and others) that we are likely to see Graendal in ToM, even if it is just to illuminate some events and plots set up before the balefiring.  Is it possible that we may get to see Graendal masterfully deduce Rand's intentions and get the hell out of Dodge, while leading Rand to believe that he had destroyed her?

 

The short answer is yes.

 

But for now I believe the most obvious answer to the Graendal question is that she is dead, and beyond that there is no concrete information, leaving us with only conjecture and fancy, to be able to say anything definitively to the contrary.   

 

 

[darth_hel]

I agree but didn't someone say that balefire affects at most a few hours? Which would mean that graendal woukd have to have been to those places within a few hours not months if you were right. Not saying she couldn't have been, but if she had just done a few hours channeling then Rand is pretty lucky to have caught her at home.

[Paerish Swar]

I was just using the time frame of "months" as an extreme, extreme limit.

 

If Rand just burned back hours (which I think is too conservative - when Rand BFed Rahvin he was using a mere fraction of a fraction of the amount power he used with Graendal and that burned back at least a half an hour - a day or two is more likely in my opinion) that just reinforces my point that much better, I think.

[water_seeker]

If my understanding of the effects of balefire is even remotely correct, that should only be possible if there were someone in the palace that had actually performed actions across Arad Doman over the past few months.  How would hundreds of people who's only actions for the past few months were doing acrobatics, sweeping floors, mooning over Graendal and guarding palace walls in one confined, out of the way spot manage to effect the nature of the pattern in Bandar Eban?  Or the whole World?

 

I'd say that so many threads getting burned out of the Pattern like that would be sufficient to affect the entire Pattern, no matter that their actions were localized.

[Luckers]

We need to look at more than just the "disappearance" of the Compulsion in Ramshalan's mind.  We need to analyze how the whole world warped.

 

 

Quote

The Gathering Storm: A Force of Light - Min's POV

Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air.  It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about.  The forest around them. . .seemed to warp and shake.  It was as if the world itself were groaning in agony.  It snapped back, but Min could still feel that tension.  In that instant, it seemed as if the very substance of the world had been near to breaking.

and a few pages later from Sorilea's POV in Bandar Eban:

 

Quote

We felt the world warping from here, but did not know what had caused it.

 

The majority, if not all, of the people in Natrin's Barrow had little or no effect on the world for the last many months.  (Most) All were so heavily compelled that they were useless for anything except serving Graendal in her palace.

 

From Sorilea's POV she said that they all felt the world warp from all the way in Bandar Eban.  If my understanding of the effects of balefire is even remotely correct, that should only be possible if there were someone in the palace that had actually performed actions across Arad Doman over the past few months.  How would hundreds of people who's only actions for the past few months were doing acrobatics, sweeping floors, mooning over Graendal and guarding palace walls in one confined, out of the way spot manage to effect the nature of the pattern in Bandar Eban?  Or the whole World?

 

You are speaking of human influence on human events. Brandon stated that everything has a thread in the pattern, which means Natrin's Barrow, for all that it was political closed off in the human reckoning of things, was not in fact closed off at all. How was the movement of the air altered? The interactions of the tineast molecules spreading out in waves of effect like ripples or vibrations.

 

That is what caused the warp--the Pattern as a whole was forced to bend itself to accomodate for the new interweavings of billions of threads. Not just those present but those who were affected in turn. A butterfly stirs its wings and accross the world a mountain falls. Rand stirs his wings and the entirety of the pattern shudders under it.

 

It was the strength of the balefire in general which caused the warp, not the significance or the lack thereof of any of the Balefired to human politics.

 

She would have to have been able to foresee exactly what Rand was planning; she would have to have known that there was a woman with Rand at that very moment who knew how to delve for Compulsion; she would have had to time the Compulsion to dissipate exactly at the right moment, or to have used another female channeler to do it for her (who she possibly had to train to use Compulsion?) and let her, whoever she might be, die by balefire; she would likely have had to have some heretofore unknown individuals in the palace at the moment it was balefired who had themselves been active across Arad Domon effecting events in the last few months; and probably even more I can't think of right now to make such an escape plausible and not contradict the facts we do know.

 

None of which is particularily unlikely (except the struck out part, which is unnecessary). I covered all these in some detail, including points (and direct evidence) to answer why she might have made precisely those connections.

 

Incidentally, conjecture is the wrong word to apply here.

 

Conjecture: Maybe she simply guessed Rand's plan and masterfully escaped.

 

Theory: Ramshalan told her directly of Rand's intention to kill her--both before she could flee and in a way that left him proof of her death. Knowing his intention, and aware both that balefire was the most likely weapon to be employed, and that he would be looking for a peice of work she had done to serve as a guage as to whether she had been balefired, she may have deduced that the compulsion she would be expected to place on Ramshalan (and the aftermath removal of said compulsion) was the most likely test he would employ. With that deduction it is subsequently not unlikely that she might have left him the fake proof she knew he desired, and then escaped.

 

Whilst both involve conjecture, to call the entirety conjecture is misrepresenting the argument.

 

 

That Graendal is toast is the simplest, most direct, conclusion to the events in tGS.

 

Which doesn't mean much.

 

Is it possible that we may get to see Graendal masterfully deduce Rand's intentions and get the hell out of Dodge, while leading Rand to believe that he had destroyed her?

 

What was particularly masterful about her deducing Rand's intentions? Ramshalan told her straight up. Rand wanted to kill her before she could run away and in a way which left him proof that she was dead.

 

From there only the construction of the decoy was masterful, and that's hardly outside Graendal's range of skills.

[water_seeker]

I really enjoy how Luckers can argue a theory even if he doesn't buy it himself. ;D

[TheBeerPatriot]

First off, outstanding post Luckers. Your arguments are well organized and thought out.

 

I've always taken the side that Graendal is still alive.  The more I think about it-especially after reading this thread-I think Semirhage's fate plays an important role in this.  If Graendal knew that Semirhage was balefired by Rand, then that would change Graendal's approach since she would be aware that Rand had gotten over his aversion to killing women.  But if she didn't know about Semirhage's fate, then she may have been confident and comfortable in the fact that Rand would not take such a drastic step as balefiring the palace.

 

I'm still of the mind that Graendal survived, since she would have been able to deduce from Ramshalan what Rand's mindset was when he approached her.

 

I think it's 50-50 whether she survived or not at this point.  Strong arguments on both sides, but ultimately I believe she's still alive since she's crafty enough to figure out Rand's current mindset.

[Paerish Swar]

Ummm, OK.

 

Timing almost to the second the dissipation of a web of compulsion goes beyond masterful.

 

For her to comfortably assume that Rand or someone he might have around him could effectively delve for compulsion might even be a stretch.  How could she be sure the "decoy" would even be noticed?

 

That Rand would appear to be gunning for her should be pretty obvious to Graendal, but the extreme action that he took is arguably not something she could have foreseen, since it was so completely out of character for him.  (For as smart as she is, Graendal wasn't able to manipulate Sammael very well and she wasn't able to tell when he was playing her in CoS.  Graendal knew Sammael a lot better than she knows Rand, but if she was making her response to Rand based on what she "knew" of him, she would have been completely off in this circumstance particularly.  And even if she knew about the Semirhage event, which we don't know if she did, that was a defensive move - not offensive like this one - and didn't involve the balefiring of hundreds of "innocents."  That's quite a leap.  The Semirhage incident wouldn't necessarily be any more a game changer for Graendal than the Rahvin incident.)

 

If someone else placed the compulsion on Ramshalan, how could we ever try to confirm that with the information we do have?

 

-----

 

If we can't confirm that someone other than Graendal placed the compulsion, then for now we should assume that Graendal did do it.

 

If we can't confirm that Graendal could have been near clairvoyant enough to time the dissipation of the web down to the second, then for now we should assume that Graendal did not loosely knot the weave at all.

 

If Graendal wove it, and didn't tie it off, and it disappeared right after the balefire . . . she must've gotten BFed.

 

-----

 

Obviously this could all be completely wrong, but it wouldn't be wrong because of something we know - it would be wrong because of the things we don't know and could only guess at.

 

Luckers, you made a wonderful list of all the things we could guess at, based on some really solid reasoning.  But I would still call it conjecture.  We just aren't privy yet to those facts.  If they exist.

 

-----

 

As for the warp in the pattern, I admitted that it could have just been the sheer volume of what was balefired all at once that created it.  Granted I was not ever specifically thinking about the particles of the palace itself, but nonetheless the general idea did cross my mind.

 

I still feel that there was more to it.  What Sorilea described especially makes me feel that way.  I really just think there's more to it.

 

Also, most of the times that we've seen balefire used there were noticeable actions prior to the balefiring that also got removed from the pattern.  Actions that we got to see something of - actions that were important in some way.  Are we to assume that in this case the only actions that got burned back in the pattern were back flips and orgies?  'Cause that would be really sad. ;)

 

-----

 

And . . .

What was particularly masterful about her deducing Rand's intentions? Ramshalan told her straight up. Rand wanted to kill her before she could run away and in a way which left him proof that she was dead.

 

All I have to say to that is . . . you're right!  That's not masterful.  One of the Forsaken develops the sneaking suspicion that the Dragon Reborn might want to kill her, kill her before she can run away, kill her before she can run away and have some proof of his success?  That's quite a change from what she must have thought before Ramshalan came along.  ;D

 

So now Graendal knows that Rand knows where she is.  That could certainly be enough for her to decide to just run away and lay a false trail, but we can't know at this point if that's what she did.

 

I almost never say this because I think it's terribly overused, but . . . Occam's razor might apply here.

 

-----

 

It's easy for us, after the fact, to analyze and understand Rand's intentions.  It's really obvious to us, now.  He came right out and explained it to us.  That also makes it easy for us project on Graendal our own very unique perspective on the situation.  Everything lines up for us perfectly, so maybe it did for here too?  But we don't have any proof of that.

 

It's kind of like RJ's comments on how we should know who Mesaana is.  He already knows who she is and knows how all the clues perfectly line up.  So we must too, right?  But we don't.

 

It may not have actually been that obvious to Graendal either. (Not the Mesaana thing, but the Rand thing  ::))

 

Who knows what she was thinking at that moment, or what she was playing at?

[Sharaman]

Occam's razor is how I'd look at it.

G knows for sure that Rand has located her.

She knows that he's going to, one way or another, try to kill her.

Her instinct would be to run.

The fact that she doesn't bother to place either his stalking horse or his open gate under surveillance makes it more likely that she has already run even as she dismisses Ramshalam.

 

The compulsion fading can be explained in several ways. As I already pointed out, Rand didn't use a rigorous method of testing exactly when the compulsion faded.

The text makes it clear that a significant period elapses between the first examination of Ramshalam and the second; it's not a matter of mere seconds, more like 15 minutes to a half-hour.

Nyn tests Ramshalam in the late afternoon. Then the sun sets, then Rand has another conversation with Nyn-Min, then he balefires the castle, has another argument with Nyn and only then, she tests for the Compulsion again.

 

[Paerish Swar]

I'm staring at the scene right now.  The dialogue moves quickly, and there are only two time markers in the narration - the first is vague and the second is concrete.

 

The sun appears to already be about to start setting when Ramshalan comes back up the ridge.  And then, very poetically, the sun officially set right before Rand began to explain what he planned to do.  He made his explanation in a minute or two.  Then he did the deed. 

 

Nynaeve tested the second time about 1 minute after the balefire.  It was pretty quick and pretty easy to estimate.  Nynaeve's first test happened several minutes before the balefire.  Maybe more than several, because this one is actually very hard to estimate.  But 30 minutes, to me, seems to be the absolute upper limit for this.

 

Still, she would absolutely have had to time it perfectly.  Because, I ask, through what conceivable thought process might Graendal have assumed that Rand would wait any length of time before making his move?  If she had the foresight to deduce that Rand was going to balefire the entire palace, that he had changed so drastically as to flippantly make the decision to do something that practically borders on being evil, why would she also think that he would wait around any longer than he had to?

 

Wouldn't that have been embarrassing for Graendal if the very second after Nynaeve tested Ramshalan, Rand had just unleashed his fury.  Then ten seconds later Nynaeve tests again, and . . . the compulsion hadn't unraveled yet!  Whoops!

 

I guess Graendal is just lucky that Rand took his sweet time.

 

Realistically, she would have had to know the exact amount of time it would take for Ramshalan to get back to Rand.  Then she would have had to estimate very accurately the length of time it would take for Rand to appropriately test for the compulsion.  Then she would have had to add no more than a minute or two to that total just in case Rand was overeager, jumped the gun and immediately unleashed the balefire and did a quick second testing.

 

And that is all assuming that Graendal, or anyone for that matter, could actually be exactly that accurate when setting a web to unravel.

 

To ensure the success of her ruse she would have had to have aimed for the compulsion to disappear in mere seconds after Nynaeve tested for it.  Every second she let it go longer, the greater the risk of it not working.  Her window for success is so narrow as to be impossible to make work.

 

Unless she got lucky.

 

Yeah, that's it.  This woman who is so darn smart, supposedly smart enough to deduce the intentions of someone she doesn't know - who isn't even acting like himself for that matter - pinned her hopes on a guestimation of time and got lucky.

 

Or maybe she is just so, so, so darn smart that she understood that Rand would be simultaneously ruthless on a level that even the Dreadlords during the War of Power eventually shied away from and . . . hesitant?

 

All this is just too much for me.  Until I see a Graendal pov in ToM, I am not going to presume to know what her though process was, what she may have done, or what the exact extent of her abilities are.

 

Call me a simpleton, but all the signs we have point to "dead."  No matter how much wiggle room there might be.  We've yet to be given any proof to the contrary.     

[Sharaman]

Why would a smart woman and a paranoid one to boot, not bother to put a guard on an open Gate, or to alert her defences, and have Ramshalam followed?

Maybe because she isn't there in Natrin's Barrow anymore.

 

G may not be playing a bluff-double bluff game at all. Since she intended to let Ramshalam go, she may have just used a tied off weave that evaporated soon. After all, suppose it evaporates before Ramshalam can be tested. Rand will be puzzled and wonder if it's actually G in Natrin's Barrow. No harm done.

Otherwise, what does she care anyway, she does a runner the moment Ramshalam got out her door.

 

It's Rand's own fault that he didn't tell Nyn to continuously monitor the Compulsion while he used the BF. Without continuous monitoring, there's no certainty if the Compulsion faded before, coincident to, or after BF.

Sloppy, if you're running an experiment that can't be repeated, do it with proper rigour.