Rand and Moiraine. How will it go down?

[Shard]

Here's another thing I agree with Luckers on: we know from three sources that Rand will die:

 

1.  The Aelfinn: 'to live you must DIE'

2.  Min: 'Alivia is going to help you DIE'

3.  Nicola: 'he who is DEAD yet lives'

 

Maybe one of them could be passed off as representing a fake death...though I think even Nicola says it plain enough...but all three together seem to make it certain that Rand will indeed die.  Min was only really wishy-washy on whether or not Alivia will deliberately kill Rand.  She wants to believe that Rand won't die, but the words come with the viewing, and the words are always true; if she didn't really believe that Alivia was going to help Rand actually die, then she would not have a problem with Alivia.  The Aelfinn's answers are always true, so long as they are in relation to your own future.

 

Luckers has his own explanation for how Rand can be dead and alive at the same time.  My explanation derives from Birgitte: Heroes are 'not dead as others are dead', precisely because they wait between lives in a place where it is possible to observe the living and interact with them.  They are dead, but they are also alive, and they can even be brought back to the world of the living like Birgitte.

 

All three sound like fake deaths to me. Or that is my interpretation at least.

 

1) To live you must let the world and the DO think you are dead.

2) Alivia will help Rand fake his death.

3) The world thinks Rand dead, yet he lives.

 

That's one way to interpret all three.

 

Let me put it another way, Romeo and the whole world thought Juliet dead, yet she lived. Until she found Romeo dead and stabbed herself. *sigh* Teenagers.

[Terez]

The Aelfinn didn't say 'to live you must fake your death'.  They said 'to live you must DIE'.  They give true answers, and if Rand was only required to fake his death, then their answer would be untrue.  Therefore, your interpretation is invalid.

[SqueeEGA]

I have always assumed that 'to live you must die' referred to "The Dragon" being bound to the wheel, and that Rand will have to sacrifice himself to win the last battle, but in doing so he gets to live on in T'A'R and be spun out again when needed.  If the DO wins the wheel is broken and the pattern is unmade.  No more dragon, no more heroes of the horn, no more world.  Rand has been set up as not only an Arthurian character, but as a christlike character.  Christ sacrificed himself for the rest of the world.  So must Rand, but in doing so he allows the wheel to continue turning.

 

Some have questioned how and/or why Rand became so dark in TGS.  The answer seems pretty plain to me.  He touched the true power!  It was after that that he became that dark.  I dont think it has anything to do with all that has happened to him, or even Semi forcing him to choke Min.  Its the fact that he touched the DO.  This is an angle that I've not seen anyone else pose, but it seems the simplest and most blatantly obvious conclusion.

 

Rand and Moraines reunion is going to be amazing, but I dont think he'll think her a forsaken in disguise, or think she anyone other than who she appears to be.  The end of TGS depicts Rand laughing and crying genuinely which is the result of Cadsuanes plans.  That is all accomplished.  I would agree that a huge weight will be lifted off of Rands shoulders seeing her return since she is the first name on his list of dead women.  Her "catchphrase" is 'the wheel weaves as the wheel wills', and perhaps seeing her again will remind Rand of that statement, and he will recognize that it was not him that killed all of those women, it was the wheel.  The wheel willed it so it is...was...whatever.  I expect this to be an incredibly powerful seen, but I dont have the fears that some of the other posters seem to have.  He's not going to balefire her.  I just dont see that at all.

 

I'm also not buying the whole body swap idea, or the merging having anything to do with Moridin.  Rand and LTT were two people in one, and as Rand notes at the end of TGS he doesnt think he'll hear from LTT again.  He seemed to have the Zen moment that I expected.  Rand and LTT merged together to become one.  LTT is dead.  I will consider this 100% confirmed if Rand starts referring to himself as 'The Dragon', not 'The Dragon Reborn'.  I really hope this happens b/c it'll validate a 'crazy theory' I've had for years.  My thought was that "The Dragon" is spun out the fight the DO.  LTT was "The Dragon" so the rebirth of LTT would be "The Dragon Reborn"...but, in essence, they're just "The Dragon".  LTT would've been the rebirth of a previous Dragon who was the rebirth of an even more previous Dragon...etc.

 

We'll see.  If it doesnt happen in ToM then I'm probably wrong.  *shrug*  I've got my fingers crossed.

[Millon]

See. the whole Dragon Reborn thing kind of messes with me a little. I mean, if the dragon has been reborn timw without end as the DO and Ishy have said, why do we ONLY see glimpses of TAL and ONLY LTT? Shouldn't there be a little something of the 'original' dragon in there. I  honestly think it is NOT a beginning of time thing but just an LTT AOL thing. Probably way off but that sticks out to me that we only hear from LTT.

[farthammer]

Birgitte's memories are fading after being ripped out of TAR, eventually she will barely remember much more than her own legend, that doesn't mean she suddenly never existed before the AoL.

[FarShainMael]

According to Min's Viewing, Alivia will 'help Rand die', not Moiraine.

 

Min's viewing about Alivia doesn't mention Moiraine at all.  ;)  I think several Lightfriends will contribute to Rand's death, including Mat, Elayne, Alivia, Gawyn, and Moiraine.

 

You misread my post, so I'll restate it to clear up any ambiguity:

 

'According to Min's Viewing, Alivia, not Moiraine, will 'help Rand die'.'

 

Also, IMO the Logain dream indicates that Rand's death is not permanent, and that he won't be coming back in that body.  Instead he'll have a brand new body ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

I'm also leaning towards this view.

 

Another possibility that occurred to me is that Rand may already have 'died' on Dragonmount; that is, his old self no longer exists since he has now recalled all his past lives, and regained his sanity. Unfortunately I don't think Alivia had any part in that..

 

[farthammer]

Why bother taking him out of TAR?

 

Rand did not physically die on DM, if anything that scene was the exact opposite of death.

[Terez]

I have always assumed that 'to live you must die' referred to "The Dragon" being bound to the wheel, and that Rand will have to sacrifice himself to win the last battle, but in doing so he gets to live on in T'A'R and be spun out again when needed.  If the DO wins the wheel is broken and the pattern is unmade.

 

This is exactly what I assumed before TGS.  In my opinion, TGS made it pretty clear that Rand is not going to end the series dead.  That he had given up on it was portrayed as an aspect of the darkening of his character, but his friends were still determined that he could live. This is a good example, and has some foreshadowing in it:

 

TITLE - The Gathering Storm

CHAPTER: 33 - A Conversation with the Dragon

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

 

She opened her mouth to object again, but he gave her a sharp glance. "That is how it must be, Nynaeve."

 

She closed her mouth.

 

"You did well tonight," Rand said. "You have saved us all a lot of trouble."

 

"I did it because I want you to trust me," Nynaeve said, then immediately cursed herself. Why had she said that? Was she really so tired that she blabbed the first thing that came to her mind?

 

Rand just nodded. "I do trust you, Nynaeve. As much as I trust anyone; more than I trust most. You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept. The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me. She only cares about my place in her plans. She wants me to be part of the Last Battle. You want me to live. For that, you have my thanks. Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can."

 

Also...Lews Therin didn't die on Dragonmount.  At least, not this time.  He did 3500 years ago.  In fact, this time, 'Lews Therin' found a reason to live.  And the reason why Rand knows he won't hear 'Lews Therin's voice' any more is because he realized that they were one and the same all along.  Lews Therin didn't even 'go away', much less die; he is just as much a part of Rand as he was before, and more since Rand is no longer fighting the memories, and the truth. 

 

Min:  "You, and another man..."  Rand:  "...for they were not two men, and never had been."  It doesn't fit.  Min: "You touched, and seemed to merge..."  Rand:  "It had been a strange sensation, as if he were...touching...the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair’s breadth, in any direction, to touch him again."  Moridin:  "I feel so tired...Is that you, or is it me? I could throttle Semirhage for what she did."

 

I am not a proponent of the body-swap theory; aside from the fact that I think it would be a little creepy for Rand to end the series in Moridin's body, I think that Min's viewing indicates that the end result of the link will be the death of one but not the other.  If this is to count as Rand's death, then Moridin would have to survive, and the body-swap theory tends to assert that Moridin will not survive.  But I think it's clear that Min's viewing refers to the Rand-Moridin phenomenon, partly because of the language, and partly because it was mentioned just before Rand decided to kill Sammael, at which time he met Moridin and they crossed the streams.  Also partly because Rand's immediate assurance that the viewing concerned Lews Therin had the character of a red herring.

 

I can see Rand stealing Moridin's body (though I think it fairly unlikely), but I don't think he will end the series that way. 

 

You misread my post, so I'll restate it to clear up any ambiguity:

 

'According to Min's Viewing, Alivia, not Moiraine, will 'help Rand die'.'

 

I didn't misread it.  The viewing about Alivia does not mention Moiraine, so your observation is irrelevant.  In case it's not clear why:

 

Winter's Heart book tour 12 December 2000, Atlanta Chapter II - Br00se reporting

 

The next lady asked some question about one of Min's viewing of Rand with three women.  She was confused because Min didn't recognize someone in the viewing that she should have known.  RJ had to repeat three or four times that the viewing wasn't clear at the time.  He seemed to be stressing that Min's inability to recognize the person didn't mean anything important.  Her viewings don't always tell everything.  This is only important because it means that you can't use anything that was missing from Min's viewings as proof of anything.

 

Min's viewing concerned Alivia and Alivia only.  I believe that Alivia's contribution to Rand's death will be entirely different from Moiraine's, and I don't think it will be anything premeditated like most people seem to believe.  It doesn't have any thematic significance for Alivia's character, unlike it has for Moiraine, but the role that I have theorized for Alivia does have thematic significance for her character (that she will be given Mat's medallion to fight the Seanchan, and that she will be the means by which Gawyn gains the medallion and is able to attack Rand).  Everyone seems to think that theory is random, but it really does have a good bit of circumstantial evidence going for it, none of it too obvious of course, and the thematic bit is only part of it.

[FarShainMael]

In your post #79 on this thread, you discussed Moiraine, and you stated:

 

I think that Gawyn will fatally wound Rand at the Battle of Caemlyn, and that there will be no one to Heal him.  I also think that Mat and Moiraine will show up just in time for Moiraine to fulfill a promise that she made to Rand way back in TEOTW:

 

"Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself."

 

She will do this to save him from the Shadow, probably in a scene much like Egwene's Accepted test, when she found Rand trapped under a beam, begging her to kill him because they could turn him to the Shadow if the smallest spark of life remained.

 

You are clearly suggesting that Moiraine will help Rand die. But, as you say and as I tried to point out, according to Min's Viewing, it is Alivia who will do that. Moiraine will NOT help Rand die; Alivia, apparently, will. Your post #79 did not mention Alivia at all.

 

Does this clear up the matter?

 

I think we must agree to differ about this!

 

 

[Terez]

In your post #79 on this thread, you discussed Moiraine, and you stated:

 

I think that Gawyn will fatally wound Rand at the Battle of Caemlyn, and that there will be no one to Heal him.  I also think that Mat and Moiraine will show up just in time for Moiraine to fulfill a promise that she made to Rand way back in TEOTW:

 

"Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself."

 

She will do this to save him from the Shadow, probably in a scene much like Egwene's Accepted test, when she found Rand trapped under a beam, begging her to kill him because they could turn him to the Shadow if the smallest spark of life remained.

 

You are clearly suggesting that Moiraine will help Rand die. But, as you say and as I tried to point out, according to Min's Viewing, it is Alivia who will do that. Moiraine will NOT help Rand die; Alivia, apparently, will. Your post #79 did not mention Alivia at all.

 

Does this clear up the matter?

 

I think we must agree to differ about this!

 

It doesn't clear it up, because Min's viewing doesn't suggest that Moiraine can't help Rand die.  It only suggests that Alivia will.  You are assuming that only one person can help him die, but I'm not sure why you would assume that.

[farthammer]

That is true logically but by the same token, the entire planet can help Rand die, and that doesn't fit so well with the vision Min gave because when she names someone specific involved in an act it tends towards being a situation unique to that person.  Including Moiraine seems unnecessary.

[FarShainMael]

If Min had viewed anyone else as being involved, don't you think she would have told Rand? She was pretty fierce about it because she was afraid for him. She openly considers Alivia a threat. If she had viewed Moiraine in particular, it would have puzzled and confused her because she believes Moiraine is dead, and there was no sign of that in her attitude.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

In your post #79 on this thread, you discussed Moiraine, and you stated:

 

I think that Gawyn will fatally wound Rand at the Battle of Caemlyn, and that there will be no one to Heal him.  I also think that Mat and Moiraine will show up just in time for Moiraine to fulfill a promise that she made to Rand way back in TEOTW:

 

"Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself."

 

She will do this to save him from the Shadow, probably in a scene much like Egwene's Accepted test, when she found Rand trapped under a beam, begging her to kill him because they could turn him to the Shadow if the smallest spark of life remained.

 

You are clearly suggesting that Moiraine will help Rand die. But, as you say and as I tried to point out, according to Min's Viewing, it is Alivia who will do that. Moiraine will NOT help Rand die; Alivia, apparently, will. Your post #79 did not mention Alivia at all.

 

Does this clear up the matter?

 

I think we must agree to differ about this!

 

It doesn't clear it up, because Min's viewing doesn't suggest that Moiraine can't help Rand die.  It only suggests that Alivia will.  You are assuming that only one person can help him die, but I'm not sure why you would assume that.

 

Why would the Wheel dish out false visions about something as important as the conditions of the Dragon Reborns sacrfice, arguably the most important event in this entire turning?

 

Moiraine isnt going to help Rand die, shes going to help Rand resist becoming a second Ishamael, and she will do that by taking Alannas bond to Rand from her.

[Terez]

That is true logically but by the same token, the entire planet can help Rand die, and that doesn't fit so well with the vision Min gave because when she names someone specific involved in an act it tends towards being a situation unique to that person.  Including Moiraine seems unnecessary.

 

Moiraine's part is suggested by aspects of her character.  It's not necessary for Min's viewing of Alivia, but the viewing does not rule it out.

 

If Min had viewed anyone else as being involved' date=' don't you think she would have told Rand? She was pretty fierce about it because she was afraid for him. She openly considers Alivia a threat. If she had viewed Moiraine in particular, it would have puzzled and confused her because she believes Moiraine is dead, and there was no sign of that in her attitude.[/quote']

 

I never said she viewed anyone else being involved in Rand's death.  Like RJ said, she doesn't see everything.  I'm guessing she saw it around Alivia because it's the most important thing that Alivia will ever do.

 

Why would the Wheel dish out false visions about something as important as the conditions of the Dragon Reborns sacrfice' date=' arguably the most important event in this entire turning?[/quote']

 

I never said Min's viewing was false.

[farthammer]

You simply restate what I say and miss the point, no one is ruled out, and any of the details that suggest Moiraine might be in any way involved in this viewing are so weak that again you are still stuck with an enormous set of characters that could also be included based on the same criteria.  To our knowledge, Alivia's only reason to exist in the story at all is for this viewing, it is unique to her and that uniqueness is the only reason for her character to exist at all.

[Terez]

I don't particularly care if you believe it or not; this discussion has been about what can and cannot be determined from the viewing(s).  Hopefully by now I have made the point, but we will see.