Rand and Moiraine. How will it go down?

[Guest BaLefireP]

I'm just waiting for Rand to drop the binding like criminals comment on the AS.

I would so LOVE him to do that in ToM!!!

 

 

That would single handedly make the book a good read.  ;)

[Mr. Micawber]

Rand: "You? No!"

 

Moiraine: "Oh, sorry, sometimes I forget to wear pants"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shamelessly stolen from ISAM's FoH summary.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

I think there should be a scene where Mat brings Moiraine to Rand, who hopefully is with Perrin.  There needs to be a moment when she and the three ta'veren are together again once more before the Last Battle.  It would do wonders for the whole idea of coming full circle...  she leads them to be who they are destined to be, then gets in a jam and does 2 years less a day trapped in Tel'Aran'Rhiod (sp?... I've been reading Erikson) then gets let out by Mat, the least likely of the three to be doing any Aes Sedai a favor... Then they all meet up before the big blow out and have a tender moment...  One last sweet tender moment.  Like the final huddle of Superbowl XXXICIVM, the Last Superbowl Ever.  Cue the trollocs.

 

So that had nothing to do with the actual scene.  I can't even begin to imagine what that'll go like.  I have been trolling these boards for a few years now, reading the wheel for about 8 years, and i have to say, no matter what brained up theory we forum-rats come up with, the books are always a suprise.

 

I wrote a poem

 

Trollocs mauradering the BORDERLANDS!

THE BORDERLANDS!!

THE BORDERLANDS!!

TROLLOCS ON MASS IN THE BORDERLANDS!!

FORSAKEN, MYRDRAAL AND TROLLOCS!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

TAR'MON GAIDON!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

TARMON GAI'DON!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

TARMON GAI'DON!

CAEMLYN IS UNDER SEIGE!

DON'T USE THE TRUE POWER DRAGON MAN!

BLACK FLECKS IN YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!

DON'T FORGET TO LAUGH MR.DRAGON MAN!

OR YOU'LL GET BLACK FLECKS IN YOUR EYES!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

SEAL THE BORE!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

SHEATH THE SWORD!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

I'M SO BORED!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

TARMON GAI'DON IS WHERE IT ALL GOES DOWN IN THE LAST FUGGIN BOOK!!!!

[cortezthekiller]

I think there should be a scene where Mat brings Moiraine to Rand, who hopefully is with Perrin.  There needs to be a moment when she and the three ta'veren are together again once more before the Last Battle.  It would do wonders for the whole idea of coming full circle...  she leads them to be who they are destined to be, then gets in a jam and does 2 years less a day trapped in Tel'Aran'Rhiod (sp?... I've been reading Erikson) then gets let out by Mat, the least likely of the three to be doing any Aes Sedai a favor... Then they all meet up before the big blow out and have a tender moment...  One last sweet tender moment.  Like the final huddle of Superbowl XXXICIVM, the Last Superbowl Ever.  Cue the trollocs.

 

So that had nothing to do with the actual scene.  I can't even begin to imagine what that'll go like.  I have been trolling these boards for a few years now, reading the wheel for about 8 years, and i have to say, no matter what brained up theory we forum-rats come up with, the books are always a suprise.

 

I wrote a poem

 

Trollocs mauradering the BORDERLANDS!

THE BORDERLANDS!!

THE BORDERLANDS!!

TROLLOCS ON MASS IN THE BORDERLANDS!!

FORSAKEN, MYRDRAAL AND TROLLOCS!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

TAR'MON GAIDON!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

TARMON GAI'DON!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

TARMON GAI'DON!

CAEMLYN IS UNDER SEIGE!

DON'T USE THE TRUE POWER DRAGON MAN!

BLACK FLECKS IN YOUR EYES!!!!!!!!!!!

DON'T FORGET TO LAUGH MR.DRAGON MAN!

OR YOU'LL GET BLACK FLECKS IN YOUR EYES!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

SEAL THE BORE!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

SHEATH THE SWORD!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

I'M SO BORED!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

DEMANDRED!!!!!!

TARMON GAI'DON IS WHERE IT ALL GOES DOWN IN THE LAST FUGGIN BOOK!!!!

 

ummm....

[Terez]

Sooo....I have been thinking about this a lot actually, and I have been posting about it on tor.com the last few days. 

 

Moiraine was pegged by most people (including me) for having something to do with Rand's laughter and tears before TGS, and I noticed in this thread that some people still have her pegged for that role.  I'm glad that it was Tam rather than Moiraine because we have been waiting for that reunion for a long time.  But it was not quite what we expected, was it?  It started out predictably enough, but the way that it ended was I think a shock to everyone.

 

I am thinking that Moiraine's reunion with Rand will be much the same.

 

Specifically, I believe that the Seanchan will attack Caemlyn while Mat is at Ghenjei.  It may also be that Caemlyn is attacked by Shadowspawn, the Black Tower, Murandy led by Demandred, etc., but I'm pretty sure the Seanchan will be central to the Battle of Caemlyn, for many reasons.  And of course, there is an Arthurian parallel here (Seanchan vs Randland is essentially King Arthur vs King Arthur), and at the Battle of Camlann, King Arthur was mortally wounded by Mordred, and then carried to the island of Avalon on a boat to be healed of his wounds.  In some of the legends, he was carried on the boat by three queens, and sometimes Morgan Le Fay (a Moiraine parallel) was one of them; in some, he is carried by four enchantresses of which she is one; and sometimes she carried him by herself.  In one of the earliest accounts of Arthur, she was an enchantress; in another, she was a queen.  In Malory, Morgause is her sister and Morgause is the mother of Gawain and Mordred.  As with Moiraine, there is some confusion sometimes as to whether Le Fay was friend or foe, though I think it is more certain with Moiraine that she is a friend.

 

I think that in RJ's view, Mordred (who fatally wounded Arthur at Camlann) is a non-existent character who was fabricated by combining several different characters: Moridin, Mordeth, Demandred, and Gawyn (Morgase+Damodred).  Gawyn became Gawain, Mordred's brother.

 

I think that Gawyn will fatally wound Rand at the Battle of Caemlyn, and that there will be no one to Heal him.  I also think that Mat and Moiraine will show up just in time for Moiraine to fulfill a promise that she made to Rand way back in TEOTW:

 

TITLE - The Eye of the World

CHAPTER: 13 - Choices

 

"A few days respite, and you are ready to give up." Her calm, level voice contrasted sharply with her eyes. "A day or two of quiet, and already you have forgotten Winternight."

 

  "We haven't forgotten," Perrin said. "It's just – " Still not raising her voice, the Aes Sedai treated him as she had the gleeman.

 

  "Is that the way you all feel? You are all eager to run off to Illian and forget about Trollocs, and Halfmen, and Draghkar?" She ran her eyes over them – that stony glint playing against the everyday tone of voice made Rand uneasy – but she gave no one a chance to speak. "The Dark One is after you three, one or all, and if I let you go running off wherever you want to so, he will take you. Whatever the Dark One wants, I oppose, so hear this and know it true. Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself."

 

  It was her voice, so matter-of-fact, that convinced Rand. The Aes Sedai would do exactly what she said, if she thought it was necessary. He had a hard time sleeping that night, and he was not the only one. Even the gleeman did not begin snoring till long after the last coals died. For once, Moiraine offered no help.

 

She will do this to save him from the Shadow, probably in a scene much like Egwene's Accepted test, when she found Rand trapped under a beam, begging her to kill him because they could turn him to the Shadow if the smallest spark of life remained.  Egwene could not bring herself to do it, and when the arch came, she left him there begging, but I believe Moiraine could do it, and she will, fulfilling Min's viewing that Rand would almost surely fail without her.  It might have something to do with the 13x13 thing, but I am betting it has more to do with Rand's link with Moridin.  I also believe Moridin will believe he's won as Rand dies, and that Rand will hear the words 'I have won again, Lews Therin' at some point while he lays dying.  Moridin will probably save himself from dying also with the True Power, as he has saved himself before.  This will fulfill Min's viewing that the end result of the merge is that one of them dies, and the other doesn't.

 

They will burn Rand's body, no doubt at Moiraine's behest.  This will fulfill Min's viewings of three women before Rand's funeral bier, and him on it, and also the three women before the pyre.  It might also have something to do with Egwene's Dream of the man on a narrow cot.  It is important that he not die, but the pyre is already being prepared.

 

The body on the boat from Nicola's Foretelling and the Dream shared by Melaine and Bair - that is the body that is ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod by Nynaeve.  The three women are important because they are needed to bond him when he is ripped out, to save his life as Elayne saved Birgitte.  The world depends on his return - the future teeters on the edge of a blade, a scale tilting first one way and then the other - because the Last Battle is not yet won.  The 'great battle' was the Battle of Caemlyn, rather than the Last Battle.

 

The dream of Logain stepping over Rand's body...I believe this indicates he will lead the Asha'man against Taim after Rand is dead.  The 'paper puppet' nature of the body indicates that Rand's death is not permanent, and that he will be coming back in a different body than the one that was burned.

 

Somewhere in the mix, Elayne will have body-watching duty and Moiraine will no doubt claim the Sun Throne.  :)  I don't see that developing really until AMOL though. 

 

Oh yeah.  I also think Rand will die on Sunday at noon.  Sunday is the summer solstice, and the longest day of the year, supposedly when the Shadow's powers are the weakest, and Gawain's powers are the strongest.  Sunday is near the end of June; Rand's and Egwene's POVs ended at the beginning of June in TGS.  Half of the book at least will probably be catching up to that with Mat and Perrin; the other half I think will march on toward Sunday, ending the book with the Battle of Caemlyn and Rand's death.

[FarShainMael]

According to Min's Viewing, Alivia will 'help Rand die', not Moiraine.

 

[Shard]

I say Rand will fake his death, that's my Theory and I'm sticking to it. Alivia will help in faking said death.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I say Rand will fake his death, that's my Theory and I'm sticking to it. Alivia will help in faking said death.

 

To promote this theory (im undecided, but ill add to it) it would fit in with the Finn "to live you must die"

 

meaning, to actually do Dragon Reborn stuff, fake your own death so you dont have people following you round and you can actually get into the good stuff.

[Luckers]

The Finns were pretty clear. They said Rand must die--not look dead. Die.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The Finns were pretty clear. They said Rand must die--not look dead. Die.

 

I havent ever heard "Finns" and "Clear" in the same sentance before, unless there is an un before clear  :D :D

I donno though, as i said, im impartial to the Rand=death theories, i really dont mind.

 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

The Finns were pretty clear. They said Rand must die--not look dead. Die.

 

According to their interpreter, anyway..

 

[Shard]

The Finns were pretty clear. They said Rand must die--not look dead. Die.

 

Well Toun died and became Fortuna.

 

I don't think what the Finns said was clear how can you live if you die? Yes I know your answer is Bodyswap theory. There's apparently also Raised from the Dead and I think I rather see Bodyswap happen.

[Luckers]

The Finns were pretty clear. They said Rand must die--not look dead. Die.

 

According to their interpreter, anyway..

 

 

And Min? Nicola? All speak of Rand as dead.

 

Well Toun died and became Fortuna.

 

Not prophetically she didn't. People can wax lyrical all they want, they are not speaking with the distinctions of fate--and we have this from three seperate sources.

 

I'm sorry, I just genuinely cannot see how a faked death could possibly occur.

 

I don't think what the Finns said was clear how can you live if you die? Yes I know your answer is Bodyswap theory. There's apparently also Raised from the Dead and I think I rather see Bodyswap happen.

 

They weren't clear on how one can live after death--hence the various theories--but they were clear on death.

[Juggler]

I don't think a fake death either. however they did not say how long he had to die for, remember Matt's already died and lived again and (apart from rands panic) it was resolved in a pretty mundane CPR scenario. I don't see why Rand's has to be more complicated than this.

 

hang on isn't this the moiraine thread...

 

I'll be interested to find out about the following aaspects of moiraines stay in Finnland.

 

is she stilled? (probably but no harm their)

Did she get anything out of the Finn like matt

and Importantly - How long has her time in the tower been TO HER.

 

Would be interesing if she was stilled (which made her younger) but time passed differently inside so it felt like she was there for years so came out looking exactly the same.

[Shard]

And what about Egwene's vision of Rand laying as if dead, Logain stepping over him, and when Egwene touched Rand he fell apart like paper. Seemed to be indicating FAKE death to me. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

And what about Egwene's vision of Rand laying as if dead, Logain stepping over him, and when Egwene touched Rand he fell apart like paper. Seemed to be indicating FAKE death to me. 

 

I take taht to be Logain V Taim

 

The paper Rand because Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

 

Taim was a False Dragon. Taim seems to now be acting very much like the Dragon Reborn again. (blue dragons M'hael etc...)

 

Also, remember what the Black Sister said in Tear, they wanted to use Taim to do crazy crap in the name of the Dragon Reborn. I know that we havent actually seen this happen, and she may well have been lying. But... Isnt that what he is doing now?

[Shard]

Why would Egwene see Rand laying there if it's Taim that is the one dead? That seems like a big stretch to me, if RJ wanted to hide the identy of the man on the ground there are better ways to do that. Like the Faceless Seachan woman that offered to help Egwene climb Dragonmount.

[Luckers]

And what about Egwene's vision of Rand laying as if dead, Logain stepping over him, and when Egwene touched Rand he fell apart like paper. Seemed to be indicating FAKE death to me.  

 

That implies simply that when Rand is seen as dead, Logain will supplant him--yet despite that perception he lives. Alone I would also take it to mean that Rand may fake his death, however it is not alone. The other prophecies speak of him living beyond his death--but they DO speak of his death. Therefore this is subsumed to their interpretation--Rand dies, yet lives. When he dies Logain supplants him--yet he lives.

 

This contradiction, incidentally, is why I first wrote the Body Swap. And its why I sustain that the Body Swap is the only theory that addresses all the various prophecies surrounding Rand's death.

[Val Mickey]

Who interpreted for Rand in Finnland? Was that a Finn or a human?

[Terez]

According to Min's Viewing, Alivia will 'help Rand die', not Moiraine.

 

Min's viewing about Alivia doesn't mention Moiraine at all.  ;)  I think several Lightfriends will contribute to Rand's death, including Mat, Elayne, Alivia, Gawyn, and Moiraine.

 

Also, IMO the Logain dream indicates that Rand's death is not permanent, and that he won't be coming back in that body.  Instead he'll have a brand new body ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

[featherxquill]

Also, IMO the Logain dream indicates that Rand's death is not permanent, and that he won't be coming back in that body.  Instead he'll have a brand new body ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

That's an interesting thought, because if he does die and come back via being ripped out of <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>, that will mean he's no longer a part of the Pattern who can be reborn in future. No more Dragon for future turns of the wheel.

[Luckers]

Also, IMO the Logain dream indicates that Rand's death is not permanent, and that he won't be coming back in that body.  Instead he'll have a brand new body ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

I interpret it the same way, except obviously body swap not TAR-rip. But still, it's good to know we can at least agree on aspects.

[Terez]

We have agreed before, Luckers.  ;D

 

Also, IMO the Logain dream indicates that Rand's death is not permanent, and that he won't be coming back in that body.  Instead he'll have a brand new body ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

That's an interesting thought, because if he does die and come back via being ripped out of <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>, that will mean he's no longer a part of the Pattern who can be reborn in future. No more Dragon for future turns of the wheel.

 

I'm not sure why everyone assumes this.  According to Min's viewings, Birgitte is still very much tied to the Wheel, and to Gaidal.  Her cycle of birth was disrupted, so now she'll be older than Gaidal, but Min's viewings confirm that Birgitte's fears about whether she will find Gaidal again are unfounded.

[FarShainMael]

The Finns were pretty clear. They said Rand must die--not look dead. Die.

 

According to their interpreter, anyway..

 

 

And Min? Nicola? All speak of Rand as dead.

 

We haven't actually seen Min's viewing, but we know that she's re-interpreted it as 'Alivia's going to kill Rand' from 'she's going to help Rand die'. At least that's what she originally told Rand, apparently. I would really have liked to have had a Min PoV on the actual Viewing.. but that was withheld. Hmm.

 

As for Nicola and 'he who is dead yet lives'.. that one is as ambiguous as the 'finns answer, even if it was about Rand, which we aren't certain about.. though it seems highly likely.

 

Actually, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if Rand actually dies, but I can't atm see how the 'finns answer and Nicola's prophecy will play out.

 

[Terez]

Here's another thing I agree with Luckers on: we know from three sources that Rand will die:

 

1.  The Aelfinn: 'to live you must DIE'

2.  Min: 'Alivia is going to help you DIE'

3.  Nicola: 'he who is DEAD yet lives'

 

Maybe one of them could be passed off as representing a fake death...though I think even Nicola says it plain enough...but all three together seem to make it certain that Rand will indeed die.  Min was only really wishy-washy on whether or not Alivia will deliberately kill Rand.  She wants to believe that Rand won't die, but the words come with the viewing, and the words are always true; if she didn't really believe that Alivia was going to help Rand actually die, then she would not have a problem with Alivia.  The Aelfinn's answers are always true, so long as they are in relation to your own future.

 

Luckers has his own explanation for how Rand can be dead and alive at the same time.  My explanation derives from Birgitte: Heroes are 'not dead as others are dead', precisely because they wait between lives in a place where it is possible to observe the living and interact with them.  They are dead, but they are also alive, and they can even be brought back to the world of the living like Birgitte.