Why does Need bring Egwene to the Tinkers? (tGS spoilers)

[Dida]

When Egwene uses the need trick in the Gathering Storm, why does it take her to the Tinkers?

and why does the fire not change like it should?

 

  Why? 

 

  Might be a common connection Raen, Ila each hold between Perrin, Egwene, Verin, Two Rivers society and in the near future Empress Fortuona & Selucia.  Raen, Ila I suspect are important in tying together Fortuona and Egwene in the fight against the Shadow soon. 

 

 

 

Is it possible that what she needs to know is that violence and fighting is not the answer to winning the Last Battle?

Perhaps the Tinkers are the key to defeating the Dark One? Sounds a little hippie-ish to me.[/right]

 

  Rand did "envy" the Ogier way of life in 'The Great Hunt', and the Tinker's Way of the Leaf in tGS.  But no, some amount of fighting and sacrifice are going to be require to re-seal the Bore and rid the worlds of Shadowspawn in the Last Battle.  After the Last Battle, there should be a general move towards non-violence, yet even the Tinkers should change too.       

 

What role do you think the Tinkers will play in this whole thing? They haven't done much so far.

 

  That depends on who you consider a Tinker, and what definition your using. The Tinker's in Ebou Dar helped change Rand's heart for the worlds benefit. 

[Paerish Swar]

FarShainMael's comment got me thinking, so I guess I'll just throw this out there . . .

 

Earlier in tGS Min is reading Herid Fel's books and refers to Fel's little note to Rand that she uses as a book mark.  It reads:

 

Belief and order give strength.  Have to clear rubble before you can build.  Will explain when see you next.  Do not bring girl.  Too pretty.

 

We know that this has something to do with how Rand can defeat the DO, and is likely the reason why Fel was murdered, but we don't know exactly what all of it means.

 

The second sentence is likely about the Seals, but I wonder if the first sentence may be about something else entirely.

 

So, Egwene uses Need and is taken to a Tinker camp that has settled, presumably, in Seanchan lands, and Rand spends some time with a Tinker camp settled outside Ebou Dar.

 

Well, if there is any group in Randland that represents "Belief," it would be the Tinkers.  If there is any group that represents "order," it would be the Seanchan.

 

Maybe there's a direct correlation here to what Fel was trying to tell Rand about how to win the Last Battle.

 

I don't know what, exactly.  But like I said . . . just throwing it out there.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

So, Egwene uses Need and is taken to a Tinker camp that has settled, presumably, in Seanchan lands, and Rand spends some time with a Tinker camp settled outside Ebou Dar.

 

Well, if there is any group in Randland that represents "Belief," it would be the Tinkers.  If there is any group that represents "order," it would be the Seanchan.

 

Maybe there's a direct correlation here to what Fel was trying to tell Rand about how to win the Last Battle.

 

Hmm ... thats interesting, but strikes me as the wrong kind of symbolism for Herid Fel.  Fel's use of symbolism tends to be concrete (calling the failing Seals "rubble" is a perfect example).  Referring to the entire Seanchan way of life as "order" is the wrong kind of metaphysical symbolism: it would fit a little better with the Aelfinn, maybe.  Besides, we have no reason to believe that Herid Fel was at all familiar with the Seanchan Empire, much less that he would choose to characterize it almost metonymically as "order".

 

That is purely an opinion, though.

[FarShainMael]

Well, if there is any group in Randland that represents "Belief," it would be the Tinkers.  If there is any group that represents "order," it would be the Seanchan.

 

I was thinking the Seanchan as the source of both order and belief (in the Empress), but I like yours better.

 

 

[Dream]

So, Egwene uses Need and is taken to a Tinker camp that has settled, presumably, in Seanchan lands, and Rand spends some time with a Tinker camp settled outside Ebou Dar.

 

Well, if there is any group in Randland that represents "Belief," it would be the Tinkers.  If there is any group that represents "order," it would be the Seanchan.

 

Maybe there's a direct correlation here to what Fel was trying to tell Rand about how to win the Last Battle.

 

Hmm ... thats interesting, but strikes me as the wrong kind of symbolism for Herid Fel.  Fel's use of symbolism tends to be concrete (calling the failing Seals "rubble" is a perfect example).  Referring to the entire Seanchan way of life as "order" is the wrong kind of metaphysical symbolism: it would fit a little better with the Aelfinn, maybe.  Besides, we have no reason to believe that Herid Fel was at all familiar with the Seanchan Empire, much less that he would choose to characterize it almost metonymically as "order".

 

That is purely an opinion, though.

 

It's possible Herid Fel was only specifying what is needed to give strength without knowing where Rand would find these qualities.  So while he wasn't referring directly to the Seanchan and Tinkers it just so happens that these two societies already exists to aid Rand in whatever it is he must do.

 

Or he was just stating the obvious as chaos and resignation clearly won’t win any wars.

 

I tend to believe he was hinting at how to reseal the bore, though.

 

 

[Paerish Swar]

So, Egwene uses Need and is taken to a Tinker camp that has settled, presumably, in Seanchan lands, and Rand spends some time with a Tinker camp settled outside Ebou Dar.

 

Well, if there is any group in Randland that represents "Belief," it would be the Tinkers.  If there is any group that represents "order," it would be the Seanchan.

 

Maybe there's a direct correlation here to what Fel was trying to tell Rand about how to win the Last Battle.

 

Hmm ... thats interesting, but strikes me as the wrong kind of symbolism for Herid Fel.  Fel's use of symbolism tends to be concrete (calling the failing Seals "rubble" is a perfect example).  Referring to the entire Seanchan way of life as "order" is the wrong kind of metaphysical symbolism: it would fit a little better with the Aelfinn, maybe.  Besides, we have no reason to believe that Herid Fel was at all familiar with the Seanchan Empire, much less that he would choose to characterize it almost metonymically as "order".

 

That is purely an opinion, though.

 

It's possible Herid Fel was only specifying what is needed to give strength without knowing where Rand would find these qualities.  So while he wasn't referring directly to the Seanchan and Tinkers it just so happens that these two societies already exists to aid Rand in whatever it is he must do.

 

Or he was just stating the obvious as chaos and resignation clearly won’t win any wars.

 

I tend to believe he was hinting at how to reseal the bore, though.

 

That was what I meant.  I wasn't really thinking that Fel was directly commenting on the Seanchan or the Tinkers in his note.

 

I was just musing that there could be a correlation between what Rand experienced with the Tinkers near Ebou Dar and what Egwene saw in T'a'r to what Fel said about belief and order giving strength.

 

Maybe what they saw and what Fel was trying to say have between them a common thematic or philosophical thread.  That the Tinkers in Seanchan lands are representative some aspect of the type of reasoning and ideas that Fel was trying to impart to Rand.

 

That's all.

 

But I agree that the note definitely has something to do with resealing the Bore.  Maybe that's all it is about, but I think it could have been about more than just that.

 

Remember, Rand did talk to Fel about the answers he got from the Finns.  One of the questions he asked was about how he could unify the land to win TG, or something like that.  You know, "the north and east must be as one, the south and west must be as one.  The two must be as one," yadda, yadda.

 

Fel could have been referencing that stuff, too.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

That was what I meant.  I wasn't really thinking that Fel was directly commenting on the Seanchan or the Tinkers in his note.

 

I guess thats what I meant though.  As I read it, Fel had very concrete steps in mind when he wrote the note, applied general principles, not just the principles themselves.  Otherwise he wouldn't have had anything more to say to Rand after his fishing trip.  So, when he says that "Belief and order give strength," I think he does have something specific in mind, and that something is not the collective ways of life of the Tinkers and Seanchan.  The statement "Belief and order give strength," doesn't stand alone, it is an introduction to the idea that Rand "[Has] to clear rubble before [he] can build."

 

Again, that interpretation is merely my opinion.

[FarShainMael]

The concepts of 'belief' and 'order' aren't exactly concrete, though, are they? Whereas 'clear away rubble before you can build' sounds pretty concrete. But if the two statements are linked it may have been a metaphor, and may not refer to the Seals at all, but instead to something like the currently pretty chaotic political state that the Westlands are in.

 

It's just another interpretation. (Fun, this, isn't it!)

 

[Morsker]

The concepts of 'belief' and 'order' aren't exactly concrete, though, are they? Whereas 'clear away rubble before you can build' sounds pretty concrete. But if the two statements are linked it may have been a metaphor, and may not refer to the Seals at all, but instead to something like the currently pretty chaotic political state that the Westlands are in.

 

It's just another interpretation. (Fun, this, isn't it!)

 

Yeah "belief and order" is pretty vague. They're also both ways of strengthening T'A'R objects, by believing in them in the dream, or by having them more stable in the real world. I haven't yet found a theory I'm able to settle down on. tGS was pretty heavy into associating the Seanchen with order though, even putting it in Fortuona's PoV.

[DocBean]

The Tinkers Belief is what keeps them safe. They're no-one's enemy, therefor should never be at risk, like the Amish.

However, we have seen people take advantage of them, and fear their odd way of life (child thieves!); and Trollocs don't care what they believe.

Their belief; however, tie them together as strongly as any nation.

 

Seanchan are the perfect representation of Order, and how that makes for a strong society.

Then again, We've seen them rebel against themselves, and the Empress and her children are constantly at war with each other for Power.

 

We know in modern society that Monarch driven societies almost always fail.

So he could be saying, Believe and Order will create a strong society.

However, before you can achieve that then you have to clear away what we have now.

it's possible he's not talking about the seals at all, Which is what Min thinks, what I think, and what most people think.

how this could possibly help with the last battle is beyond me.

 

As much as the Seanchan seem stable, we know they've suffered from civil wars before, and the ability for them to control this much territory with people from such

mixed backgrounds, while keeping everyone happy, remains to be seen.

 

I think what we'll see is not a world that's ruled by a Monarch like the Seanchan empire, or what Rand has done.

I think what we'll see is a world that's tied to a belief of non-violence and technological advancement.

 

 

[Kaznen]

It was Rand's night with the Tinkers that led him to decide not to destroy the royal palace in Ebou Dar.  He thought about how they shared their food with him, at their expense, and didn't ask for anything in return.

[Auld Manriva]

I mentioned this somewhere months ago; this use of Need directing Eggy to The Tinkers camp. This was not the first instance either. Using NEED as a tool to find the Bowl of the Winds, Nyn and Elayne were also taken to the Tinkers, IIRC. And FIRST in both cases I think. I'll leave it to some bright light to inform me if I'm mistaken. Did Nyn and Elayne concentrate on "The Bowl" or a "powerful ter'angreal"? I can't recall that either. The second keeps floating about in my coconut, but it could be wishful thinking.

 

The Dai'shain who became Tinkers dropped a boatload of OoP's when they split. That does NOT however mean they dropped EVERYthing.

 

 

 

The Dragon Reborn also needs to know something the Tinkers have to tell, and that attempt was written in blood on the side of a wagon.

 

This is something concrete, tangible... whether knowledge or an object, I don't believe it will turn out to be something up for interpretation. Interpretation by characters... not by DM'ers, I'm not nearly that naive.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure Fels note has a link to these scenes in TAR. Seems to me Belief and Order (as Fel related it) concerned Rand's mental state (belief in himself and order to his thinking) more than worldly matters. So if that proves true, then the two sentences would be about the same thing. Sealing the Bore only.

[DocBean]

I mentioned this somewhere months ago; this use of Need directing Eggy to The Tinkers camp. This was not the first instance either. Using NEED as a tool to find the Bowl of the Winds, Nyn and Elayne were also taken to the Tinkers, IIRC. And FIRST in both cases I think. I'll leave it to some bright light to inform me if I'm mistaken. Did Nyn and Elayne concentrate on "The Bowl" or a "powerful ter'angreal"? I can't recall that either. The second keeps floating about in my coconut, but it could be wishful thinking.

 

 

I don't remember Need bringing them to Tinkers, but that does sound remotely familiar. Do you have any idea what book that would be in?

 

Maybe it's Peace that Slays the Beast.

[Decen]

She has some sort of talisman of growing, maybe they already know the song they seek and need the stone because it was on standing flows in the AOL.

 

oops Elayne has it, but still.

[FarShainMael]

Elayne and Nyn's first use of Need seems to be in LoC Ch13. They don't meet the Tinkers that time:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/loc/ch13.html

 

Much later, in tGSCh38, Egwene uses Need, and it takes her to the Tinkers first, then to stand in the shadow of the White Tower:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/tgs/ch38.html

 

That's all I've been able to pick out so far, by looking at the EWoT entries on Eg and Elayne.