Aes Sedai self defense from the Seanchan and the Three Oaths.

[TrueDark]

it is off-topic but complety acurate for instance a sword hung on a wall is a decoration. so if you were to have abunch of aes sedai make sword to decorate a wall in theory they could since what they intend them as( decoration) is not a waepon and there fore they can use the power to make it

[jsbrads]

what if there are no chairs nearby (or other objects)

the AS would have to let him murder an innocent rather than bring down the ceiling on Daved

(that scene with Elayne stretches the imagination, she must have just reacted really late)

As I already said, they could bring down the ceiling in a non-fatal way. Also, nothing stops them from intervening in a way that doesn't involve the OP.

 

Of course why didn't I think of that? because they can't, break something and you can't predict where the cracks will form.

The whole reason for dropping the ceiling on him is to stop him, that requires force and force can (more likely than not) kill

[FarShainMael]

How about making a hole in the floor underneath him instead?

[Mr Ares]

what if there are no chairs nearby (or other objects)

the AS would have to let him murder an innocent rather than bring down the ceiling on Daved

(that scene with Elayne stretches the imagination, she must have just reacted really late)

As I already said, they could bring down the ceiling in a non-fatal way. Also, nothing stops them from intervening in a way that doesn't involve the OP.

 

Of course why didn't I think of that? because they can't, break something and you can't predict where the cracks will form.

The whole reason for dropping the ceiling on him is to stop him, that requires force and force can (more likely than not) kill

You put up a shield between ceiling and person, and only let through enough to use to incapacitate him. Or you do as FSM says and puch through the floor. Or you cut through a section of ceiling and so don't bring down the whole thing in an uncontrolled way. Really, at worst you posit a situation where AS are no more incapable of helping the non-AS, and usually will be able to help a damn site more even with the oaths and the medallion, unless you pile on an absurd number of restrictions, to the point where you wonder what they could have done even unbound and against someone with no protection from channeling.

[Mandro]

Also keep in mind that they dont actually have to be in danger, they just have to think they are.

 

So if, say, the White Tower was being attacked and blown to pieces by damane wielding the OP, Aes Sedai would be free to fight back because they would feel danger from explosions and what not.

 

In addition, everyone in Randland thinks that raken are Shadowspawn when they first see them. So in this way AS would also be able to fight.

 

Most AS still havent seen Seanchan personally, so in the event of a Seanchan attack they probably wouldnt make the immediate connection to being leashed as opposed to being killed because they wouldn't recognize the attackers as Seanchan.

 

The above point about the name changes is very important to. If Teslyn gets captured she becomes Tessi and traces of Teslyn are erased (can't remember the name of Tuon's damane (Mylen maybe?) who had been AS, but its clear that person no longer exists). This could be construed as the AS's life in danger.

 

In short, I don't think AS are going to be stopped by the Oaths from defending themselves against Seanchan.

 

Exactly, the flaws with the oath are that they are all bent on perception. What one thinks would be a violation of the 3 oaths, might not be to another. Take Elaida's brutality. Elaida's insanity drove her to use the power to beat and bloody a bound person so badly her peers were worried about her being black ajah, yet they ultimately decided it wasn't a violation of the oaths. In response, I say, get beaten with a cudgel a blackjack a staff, a cane, a lepipe and tell me it's not a weapon.

[baalsmistress]

what if there are no chairs nearby (or other objects)

the AS would have to let him murder an innocent rather than bring down the ceiling on Daved

(that scene with Elayne stretches the imagination, she must have just reacted really late)

As I already said, they could bring down the ceiling in a non-fatal way. Also, nothing stops them from intervening in a way that doesn't involve the OP.

 

Of course why didn't I think of that? because they can't, break something and you can't predict where the cracks will form.

The whole reason for dropping the ceiling on him is to stop him, that requires force and force can (more likely than not) kill

You put up a shield between ceiling and person, and only let through enough to use to incapacitate him. Or you do as FSM says and puch through the floor. Or you cut through a section of ceiling and so don't bring down the whole thing in an uncontrolled way. Really, at worst you posit a situation where AS are no more incapable of helping the non-AS, and usually will be able to help a damn site more even with the oaths and the medallion, unless you pile on an absurd number of restrictions, to the point where you wonder what they could have done even unbound and against someone with no protection from channeling.

 

Easier still -

 

he's got a sword and isn't someone I recognise as having the right to one here. I'll snare him in air and ask questions

what??? the weaves don't touch him? shit,

 

At that point, I'd have thought that any channeller, used to having absolute dominance over silly men with their swords, would feel in mortal peril. Facing an armed intruder that she can't touch with the one power.

[Mr Ares]

Also keep in mind that they dont actually have to be in danger, they just have to think they are.

 

So if, say, the White Tower was being attacked and blown to pieces by damane wielding the OP, Aes Sedai would be free to fight back because they would feel danger from explosions and what not.

 

In addition, everyone in Randland thinks that raken are Shadowspawn when they first see them. So in this way AS would also be able to fight.

 

Most AS still havent seen Seanchan personally, so in the event of a Seanchan attack they probably wouldnt make the immediate connection to being leashed as opposed to being killed because they wouldn't recognize the attackers as Seanchan.

 

The above point about the name changes is very important to. If Teslyn gets captured she becomes Tessi and traces of Teslyn are erased (can't remember the name of Tuon's damane (Mylen maybe?) who had been AS, but its clear that person no longer exists). This could be construed as the AS's life in danger.

 

In short, I don't think AS are going to be stopped by the Oaths from defending themselves against Seanchan.

 

Exactly, the flaws with the oath are that they are all bent on perception. What one thinks would be a violation of the 3 oaths, might not be to another. Take Elaida's brutality. Elaida's insanity drove her to use the power to beat and bloody a bound person so badly her peers were worried about her being black ajah, yet they ultimately decided it wasn't a violation of the oaths. In response, I say, get beaten with a cudgel a blackjack a staff, a cane, a lepipe and tell me it's not a weapon.

It's not a weapon, it's a tool of discipline.

 

 

what if there are no chairs nearby (or other objects)

the AS would have to let him murder an innocent rather than bring down the ceiling on Daved

(that scene with Elayne stretches the imagination, she must have just reacted really late)

As I already said, they could bring down the ceiling in a non-fatal way. Also, nothing stops them from intervening in a way that doesn't involve the OP.

 

Of course why didn't I think of that? because they can't, break something and you can't predict where the cracks will form.

The whole reason for dropping the ceiling on him is to stop him, that requires force and force can (more likely than not) kill

You put up a shield between ceiling and person, and only let through enough to use to incapacitate him. Or you do as FSM says and puch through the floor. Or you cut through a section of ceiling and so don't bring down the whole thing in an uncontrolled way. Really, at worst you posit a situation where AS are no more incapable of helping the non-AS, and usually will be able to help a damn site more even with the oaths and the medallion, unless you pile on an absurd number of restrictions, to the point where you wonder what they could have done even unbound and against someone with no protection from channeling.

 

Easier still -

 

he's got a sword and isn't someone I recognise as having the right to one here. I'll snare him in air and ask questions

what??? the weaves don't touch him? shit,

 

At that point, I'd have thought that any channeller, used to having absolute dominance over silly men with their swords, would feel in mortal peril. Facing an armed intruder that she can't touch with the one power.

Given the initial scenario involved Daved Hanlon announcing that he was going to murder a servant, I feel that this is perhaps changing the rules of the game a little, although granted they might feel that he won't stop with servants and feel in danger anyway. Simple fact is, even within the Oaths there are numerous ways to stop him save in exceedingly rare situations, from feeling threatened enough to use the Power as a weapon, to using nearby items to pin him in place, to blowing holes in the floor or collapsing the ceiling in a controlled manner, or ripping masonry from the walls to hit him with, and so on and so forth. And failing that they can always just tackle him or call for the guards. The oaths are pointless, but they are not a massive handicap in this situation.

[jsbrads]

Thanks Mr. Ares I couldn't say it better myself

"to blowing holes in the floor or collapsing the ceiling in a controlled manner,"

this should be very doable [sic] in the few seconds they have, between his announcement to kill a servant and the death of the servant...

[Mandro]

I think that is just idiotic Ares, I have take NUMEROUS hits in my life, those effing thing are weapons. I used to carry a lepipe, I KNEW I could kill the person I struck. It's a weapon, I have been hit with a cudgel, and I know that if was placed just so, I could have died, I know it's a weapon. Weapons are not always lethal, weapons do damage, and harm and threaten, Elaida, because of YOUR bastardized understanding of the oaths PROVES my point.

[Mr Ares]

Thanks Mr. Ares I couldn't say it better myself

"to blowing holes in the floor or collapsing the ceiling in a controlled manner,"

this should be very doable [sic] in the few seconds they have, between his announcement to kill a servant and the death of the servant...

Actually, it should be possible. And if the time constraints are too much, simply interpose yourself between muderer and servant - if you are in danger, use the Power. If you are not, neither is the servant. Problem solved. And the more confused you make the situation, the less time the AS has to react, the greater the chance that a murderer running around waving a sword and threatening to kill someone is something you would see as a threat. The quicker it is, the greater the chances of them feeling threatened, the slower it is, the greater the chance of a solution being found that doesn't need the OP to be used as a weapon.

 

 

I think that is just idiotic Ares, I have take NUMEROUS hits in my life, those effing thing are weapons. I used to carry a lepipe, I KNEW I could kill the person I struck. It's a weapon, I have been hit with a cudgel, and I know that if was placed just so, I could have died, I know it's a weapon. Weapons are not always lethal, weapons do damage, and harm and threaten, Elaida, because of YOUR bastardized understanding of the oaths PROVES my point.

Context is important, Mandro. Something can be a weapon in one context, and not in another. Once upon a time, caning was legal in schools. The cane was a tool of discipline, not a weapon. If someone jumped out at you in the street and attacked you, that would be using it as a weapon. I have hit people with chairs - that's using a chair as a weapon. But a chair is not a weapon, it is something that can be used as such. If we applied your definition of a weapon, no AS could ever make anything, ever. Just because most people disagree with your absurd definition doesn't make the Oaths a lie. It means you have an absurd definition. Using the OP to hit someone does not mean that it is being used as a weapon. It is certainly possible that hitting someone with the OP is using it as a weapon, but it is not automatically true. It can be punishment, training, discipline, and possibly other things besides. That doesn't make the Oaths a lie. The Oaths are pointless, but not for the reasons you suggest.

[jsbrads]

Mr Ares, ignoring the question doesn't change anything.

 

let me describe it better (note:this is my scenario, it exposes a flaw in the oaths)

 

Daved Hanlon is standing in an empty room (no furniture) there are many Aes Sedai standing ten feet to his left (and they all can't run faster than him and there are no warders in the room) to his right a few feet away is a servant and the only way to stop him is to bring down the ceiling on his head now (there is no more time for conversation, running about, threats, calling 911, walking in front of him, there isn't even time to think of options) you either strike him down with stones large enough to kill him right now or you let him kill the servant (there isn't a third option) by the oaths they can't, end of story. thus there is a flaw in the oaths as they do not allow AS to be servant of all.

[Sharaman]

They could raise a barrier between him and the servant by pulling down the ceiling in-between.

Or snatch the servant up and out of the way with a flow.

Or cause a disruptive vacuum in the air that leaves Hanlon breathless. Like with lightning, he wouldn't be immune from the effect of the OP

Or cause a potential difference in-between that gives Hanlon a taser-level shock.

Or open a Gateway that lets the servant escape.

Or open a Gate that allows an AS to transfer in-between Hanlon and the servant. Then she's in danger and can use killing force.

[Mats Spare Hat]

They could raise a barrier between him and the servant by pulling down the ceiling in-between.

Or snatch the servant up and out of the way with a flow.

Or cause a disruptive vacuum in the air that leaves Hanlon breathless. Like with lightning, he wouldn't be immune from the effect of the OP

Or cause a potential difference in-between that gives Hanlon a taser-level shock.

Or open a Gateway that lets the servant escape.

Or open a Gate that allows an AS to transfer in-between Hanlon and the servant. Then she's in danger and can use killing force.

 

 

Or, make like Siuan in book 2 and freeze so-and-so in place - Nynaeve & Egwene, in Siuan's instance. On screen, bound by the oaths too...

 

*homer simpson style giggles

[Suttree]

They could raise a barrier between him and the servant by pulling down the ceiling in-between.

Or snatch the servant up and out of the way with a flow.

Or cause a disruptive vacuum in the air that leaves Hanlon breathless. Like with lightning, he wouldn't be immune from the effect of the OP

Or cause a potential difference in-between that gives Hanlon a taser-level shock.

Or open a Gateway that lets the servant escape.

Or open a Gate that allows an AS to transfer in-between Hanlon and the servant. Then she's in danger and can use killing force.

 

 

Or, make like Siuan in book 2 and freeze so-and-so in place - Nynaeve & Egwene, in Siuan's instance. On screen, bound by the oaths too...

 

*homer simpson style giggles

 

Believe the point was Hanlon has the foxhead copy. Regardless there are ways to stop him. The oaths are flawed but nor for this reason.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Fair point Suttree, though jsbrads' concocted scenario seems more in the norm as far a generic supposed circumstance... .. . Yeah, I laughed because it's a total bubble scenario where it would seem the one who thought it up tried to severely limit a persons choice of action, as though anything's that black and white.

 

Anyway you'd have to say having a silver foxhead would be a pretty big outlier to take into account, in the greater realm of 'what would yo do to stop xyz from happening' instances. You could say the same for a gholam too, considering their scarcity.

 

...I mean if there's less than say 20 silver foxheads in the world, and at this point even fewer gholam assuming there's even one, odds are you aren't going to run into somebody having one of those like you would say, encountering someone who has two thumbs.

 

Meh

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, ignoring the question doesn't change anything.

 

let me describe it better (note:this is my scenario, it exposes a flaw in the oaths)

 

Daved Hanlon is standing in an empty room (no furniture) there are many Aes Sedai standing ten feet to his left (and they all can't run faster than him and there are no warders in the room) to his right a few feet away is a servant and the only way to stop him is to bring down the ceiling on his head now (there is no more time for conversation, running about, threats, calling 911, walking in front of him, there isn't even time to think of options) you either strike him down with stones large enough to kill him right now or you let him kill the servant (there isn't a third option) by the oaths they can't, end of story. thus there is a flaw in the oaths as they do not allow AS to be servant of all.

Positing such unlikely situations hardly exposes a flaw in the Oaths. The OP is a very versatile tool, and your scenario is not nearly specific enough to rule out all the other possible solutions that might occur - solutions such as those already outlined by Sharaman, for example. I didn't ignore the question, you ignored the answer. Also, I don't think that that would really prevent them being a "Servant of All" even if killing him was the only solution. That Oaths is there to stop them killing people. If it's stopping them killing him, then it's working just fine. The problem is that the Oaths are a bad idea to begin with. Most people don't need mystical restraint to keep from killing or lying, and nor do the AS. They serve no useful benefit to the AS, and that is why they should be done away with. Further, as the other groups aren't bound by the Oaths, it makes the AS needlessly handicapped against the competition to no benefit. Another reason to do away with them.

[jsbrads]

I find it hard to understand some of your responses.

 

The world would benefited by the incarceration (or if that option is off the table, the death) of a murderer. Restricting the AS from using force to serve all reflects on bad wording in the oath. They would be better served with a looser oath, and anyone found to be violating the spirit of it by using bad judgement, etc. could be further restricted by tighter oaths (or better yet they could have gone without an oath like real AoL AS and binding could be a punishment.

 

also note a simple change to one of the oaths could have made my argument moot eg "Except in the last protection of my life or another's life" (no need to place a sister or warder above the general population)

[Mr Ares]

I find it hard to understand some of your responses.

 

The world would benefited by the incarceration (or if that option is off the table, the death) of a murderer. Restricting the AS from using force to serve all reflects on bad wording in the oath. They would be better served with a looser oath, and anyone found to be violating the spirit of it by using bad judgement, etc. could be further restricted by tighter oaths (or better yet they could have gone without an oath like real AoL AS and binding could be a punishment.

 

also note a simple change to one of the oaths could have made my argument moot eg "Except in the last protection of my life or another's life" (no need to place a sister or warder above the general population)

Is it really the place of the AS to carry out summary executions on people? No. In most cases (every case, before Mat's medallion was on the scene) the AS are capable of restraining anyone using non-lethal force. Even someone with a medallion could be restrained most of the time, except in incredibly specific circumstances. Once the murderer in question has been restrained, an AS can serve all by handing said murderer over to the correct authorities. Let justice be served, not repaying bloodshed with more bloodshed. When is the incarceration option off the table? Almost never. Yes, they should have gone without Oaths. But you have failed to pick up on a real flaw in the Oaths.