Moiraine and Lan's bond.

[Myrelle]

I dont know if this has been discused before but its just something i was wondering.

 

when Moiraine pushes Lanfear through the ter'angreal doorway in TFOH Lan says

 

"shes gone. i cannot feel her presence." the words sounded ripped out of Lan's chest. He turned and began walking down the line of waggons without a backward glance.

 

we know from KOD(i think!?) that Moiraine isn't dead as Thom is on his way to rescue her (cant remember exactally how tis phrased sorry, i dont have the book infront of me.),though we think she is on first reading the series.

 

So, did she release Lan's bond as she fell through the doorway or did falling through the doorway cut the bond they had?

 

Because we know a warders bond can be passed on to others, as Myrelle (i think?!?) will have to pass Lan's bond onto Nyneave eventually, while the aes sedai holding the bond is still alive.

 

Though Lan does seem very upset at Moiraine falling through the doorway,

His voice was as hard as it had ever been, but those cold blue eyes were red-rimmed.

.

 

But is this because she is dead or because she has released the bond and with that he assumes that because he can no longer feel her presence that she is dead?

 

any thoughts?

[Mashiara]

I think that the doorway cut the bond, but i don't have any proof to back that up...maybe rj said something about it 8)

[gak]

i think the door way is in another dimension sorta and the bond dosent work..... i think it will create an interesting scene when she comes back.... because maybe teh bond will come back too!?!

[Myrelle]

yerh that sounds like it could be right Gak. that will be intersteing if thats true when she comes back. because we know men can be bonded more then once. hmm...

[gak]

there is so much that has to happen in this next book .... sometimes i wonder if it is going to be like 1000 pages or more.... though it would be a neat scene to see moraine with the bond back handing the bond to nynave .. that would be a great scene...

[Myrelle]

yer it would. i've been wondering whether it will be Moiraine that will give Lan's bond to Nyneave or Myrelle. Or of course, if Nyneave even gets the bond, Which i realy hope she does.

[Guest Egwene]

I don't think that the Bond is going to take over a lot of pages because I believe that it has been cut and won't be restored.

 

If however it isn't cut, there might be a tie-in with Lan coming to Moiraine with his army. At the moment, he is still bonded to Myrelle... the bond would go back to Moiraine and there would be the same need for a formal handover. It would probably happen during a break in one of the battles and will be resolved in a few sentences.

[Myrelle]

I dont know. I really hope its more then a few sentances, though with all the other things that need to be fit in the last book, it may have to be.

i really dont know how it is all going to be resolved in one book!

[Rational_Solutions]

i think the door way is in another dimension sorta and the bond dosent work..... i think it will create an interesting scene when she comes back.... because maybe teh bond will come back too!?!

 

The problem i see with that is that what happened when she went through the red stone door frame in Tear? The bond didn't pass then. So i think that she had to of done something maybe with the terangreal destroying its self it severed the entrance to the finn's and with it the bond who knows but it will be interesting to see the exchange between Lan and Moiraine when she comes back.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

Moiraine probably altered the bond so that she could release it and have it passed to Myrelle while making it seem to Lan like she died.

[Lorya]

I've heard and liked the possibility that the bond was in a way severed when the portal was melted in the same way that it would be in death. Since Moiraine kinda no longer "exists" in Randland but on some other plane or dimension, her bonds to reality were split when the portal was melted. So, in theory, it is the same thing that would happen if she died.

[EnderWarrior]

I think with that is when she and lanfear go through the ter'angreal. the place has to be were lanfear cant even enter the world of dreams so maybe it severes any connection to the actuall world. also does Lan always know were she is when she goes to Rhuidan and enters the ter'angreal? also remember that she and lanfear are held captive by the snakes and foxes.

and only mat can rescue her how about that...

i do beleive when she comes back she will get lan back by the bond being passed back and then she will in turn pass the bond to nynvene and stay close to rand

[Luckers]

Firstly, the bond was not intentionally released. We know this since the intentional releasing of the bond does not cause the 'death-absortion' effect. Evidence: RJ has said Aes Sedai who know they are going to die intentionally release the bond to save their warder from this fate.

 

Secondly, it seems unlikely that it is simply Moiraines location that is interfereing with the bond--aside from the fact that i doubt that this would cause the 'death-absortion' effect, there is other evidence. For one she has been in Finnland before without it severing the bond, and before you say its because the pathway was destroyed... there are still pathways open to Finnland through the Tower of Genjii and the other door.

 

To me, it seems most likely that what occured was that Moiraine (and likely Lanfear) were severed from the True Source when they fell through the doorway. Aside fromt the fact that this seems likely given the circumstances of what occured (them both drawing as deeply of the One Power as they could, near a ter'angreal that was destroyed by what they were doing...) we also know some other things.

 

1. Lan's bond was severed in a way that caused the death-absortion, which to date we have only seen result from death of the Aes Sedai, and the stilling or burning out of the Aes Sedai (which we saw through one of the three Rand stilled).

 

2. Lanfear is now weaker in the power. Again, we have only ever seen this happen as a result of being stilled and healed.

 

3. Both Lanfear and Moiraine are reasonably strong channelers, Lanfear extremely so, and there were two angreal with them at the time (the bracelet Lanfear was holding, and Moiraines angreal, which i assume she still had though it wasn't mentioned for quite some time). We have seen that channeling does effect the Finns, so it simply does not make sense that the Finns could hold either Lanfear or Moiraine prisoner... which we know they did through Cyndanes POV.

 

So yeah, i think the bond was severed because Moiraine was stilled... and i doubt it will return again.

[algspkr]

The bond may have been cut when the door collapsed. The door in Tear was no longer a valid entrance to Finnland for Moiraine, and the Tower of Gangie has to be opened, but I would have to say that Luckers is probably correct in his ascestment that she was stilled. Lets hope that she is Healed by a man.

[Mangin]

What happened to the 3 Oaths for Moiraine? If her Warder bond was cut because of either death or the removal from Randland, then to me it would be a credible idea that her Oaths were cut, although this idea is not without its faults. (The Aes Sedai who were forced to retake the Oaths when tested for the Black Ajah and also the Black Ajah themselves had their 3 Oaths removed, so the agelessness isn't completely a byproduct of the 3 Oaths). If that is the case, what will that do to her agelessness. If she has indeed been stilled, then the point is moot as her agelessness would be indeed gone, ala Siuan Sanche.

 

What I am leading to is this: If Moiraine becomes as a very young woman like Siuan, what would that do to the probable relationship to Thom? I am sure most would not approve of the perceived age difference.....

[cannon]

I find the idea of Moiraine being stilled to be an interesting one, and Luckers puts up a good argument. However, I'm not convinced that it's the only explanation.

 

I still think that the destruction of the doorway could have severed her link to Randland, and thusly to Lan. I also still believe that she could have intentionally cut the bond in such a way as to make Lan believe she was dead.

 

Luckers mentioned about releasing the bond before they die, but Moiraine has done plenty of things over the course of this series that were considered taboo or outright forbidden. Just because no one intentionally "cuts" the bond doesn't mean it can't be done. And with her already setting up the transfer to Myrelle, I still think it's possible she did it on purpose.

 

A final possibility is that it was one of her wishes the Eelfinn granted her. She learned a lot in Ruiedan and she was definitely playing her game with that knowledge. Most of the journeys the characters have made since she left would not have happened with her presence. She knew she had to be out of the picture for events to move forward, so she sacrificed herself.

 

Either way, I don't believe the bond will come back when she returns, regardless of the reason behind it being cut. It was cut and that's that. And I don't believe we'll ever see the transfer of Lan's bond from Myrelle to Nynaeve. It is in no way critical to the story or their relationship. It's just not going to happen.

 

As for the three Oaths question above, the Agelessness is indeed a product of the oaths and having them "tightening" around you. The Black Ajah still has the ageless look because, if I remember correctly, they took a new oath on the rod to serve the Dark One or something to that effect.

[Maverick8088]

What I am leading to is this: If Moiraine becomes as a very young woman like Siuan, what would that do to the probable relationship to Thom? I am sure most would not approve of the perceived age difference.....

 

I don't think that will be a problem, look at Siuan and Gareth Bryne. Perceived difference would have Gareth old enough to be her Grandfather, but other than Siuan not knowing what to do with the emotion of being in love there doesn't seem to be any difficulty. Besides, if anybody gives Moiraine a problem about her marrying an older man she will probably wrap the in Air and toss them in the nearest body of water. :lol: (after Flinn heals her of course)

 

To me, it seems most likely that what occured was that Moiraine (and likely Lanfear) were severed from the True Source when they fell through the doorway. Aside fromt the fact that this seems likely given the circumstances of what occured (them both drawing as deeply of the One Power as they could, near a ter'angreal that was destroyed by what they were doing...) we also know some other things.

 

1. Lan's bond was severed in a way that caused the death-absortion, which to date we have only seen result from death of the Aes Sedai, and the stilling or burning out of the Aes Sedai (which we saw through one of the three Rand stilled).

 

2. Lanfear is now weaker in the power. Again, we have only ever seen this happen as a result of being stilled and healed.

 

3. Both Lanfear and Moiraine are reasonably strong channelers, Lanfear extremely so, and there were two angreal with them at the time (the bracelet Lanfear was holding, and Moiraines angreal, which i assume she still had though it wasn't mentioned for quite some time). We have seen that channeling does effect the Finns, so it simply does not make sense that the Finns could hold either Lanfear or Moiraine prisoner... which we know they did through Cyndanes POV.

 

So yeah, i think the bond was severed because Moiraine was stilled... and i doubt it will return again.[\quote]

 

Beautiful, Luckers, almost poetic in logic. I agree completely. Let me add that we know that several Ter'angreal have the effect of stilling when used improperly. What Moiraine and Lanfear were up to definitely counts as improper use. I really feel this may be the best explanation for what happened to the bond. One other possibility is that Moiraine will not be healed upon her return. Thom never was very comfortable around Aes Sedai. (for good reason considering what happened to his nephew) Not likely perhaps, but possible

[Mangin]

As for the three Oaths question above, the Agelessness is indeed a product of the oaths and having them "tightening" around you. The Black Ajah still has the ageless look because, if I remember correctly, they took a new oath on the rod to serve the Dark One or something to that effect.

 

Some of the evidence I think of to bolster my claim that the Oaths do not make up all of the Agelessness is circumstantial. The Wise Ones and the Kin both have some agelessness. Look at how old they are. Slowing from being able to channel itself gives some of the agelessness. When the Aes Sedai who tested on the Oath Rod were cut from the Oaths (and this next is the circumstantial evidence), no mention was made as to them looking different or losing their Agelessness. Granted, the time of being free was very small, but I would have thought others would have noticed and mentioned it. Against this claim is the seriousness of the situation making the other Aes Sedai not even notice the Agelessness going.

 

As to Lucker's theory on both Moraine and Lanfear being stilled. I agree with most of this, but stilling wouldn't explain what happened to Lanfear to make her look so different? If she was recycled by the DO that would explain the new body. But, RJ has stated the ability to channel is linked to the soul and IIRC he mentioned that if someone was stilled and died, when they are reborn they can channel. I don't think the effect of being healed by the same side of the OP and its subsequent lessening of the OP ability would carry over to the new incarnation.

[rochaid]

no,i think your wrong.there is a difference between agelessness and the slowing the power invokes.agelessness makes it almost impossoble to hazard at guess at age,first glance its 20,then 40,this is the discription we're given in the books.but you could take a guess at a channeler who is slowing.while ur guess would be wrong it would not change,the person would actually look like the age you guesse.while slowing,you gradually look older as the years go on.while with agelessness the only sign of age we've seen is the gray in the odd aes sedai's hair.

 

and the aes sedai who were released from the oaths,they were resworn with oaths almost immeadiately.(as u said)

[Lucivar SaDiablo]

Suian and Leane both lost their ageless look after they were stilled. They were then healed and did not regain the ageless face. The ageless face is the tightening caused by the Oath Rod. The Wise ones have a slowing which is due to OP usage but they do look older. the knitting circle look like grandmas by their descriptions. Sure they are WAY older than the oldest AS, but they do not display the ageless face because none of them were subjected to the Oath rod.

[vikingdriver]

Isn't she now somewhere in the dream world? the Tower that was described is the same tower that was used by Slayer in Perrin's dreams. I seem to remember that Birgette described that place as being in another existance, another world if I'm not completely mistaken. So in Lan's case, she more or less winked out of existance and is no longer alive in the real world. Thom, Mat, and one other will have to enter the dream world to find and rescue her.

[Zardi]

No, they won't. The Tower of Ghengei exists in the real world, too. Mat and Rand saw it when they were on Domon's boat in EotW.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

I agree with most of this, but stilling wouldn't explain what happened to Lanfear to make her look so different? If she was recycled by the DO that would explain the new body. But, RJ has stated the ability to channel is linked to the soul and IIRC he mentioned that if someone was stilled and died, when they are reborn they can channel. I don't think the effect of being healed by the same side of the OP and its subsequent lessening of the OP ability would carry over to the new incarnation.

 

Lanfear did get recycled, and the DO (or maybe an effect of the mindtrap) used his link to make her weaker. The DO can make it as if they were severed (through shaidar haran), so he can probably go halfway and make them weaker.

[Luckers]

Lanfear did get recycled, and the DO (or maybe an effect of the mindtrap) used his link to make her weaker. The DO can make it as if they were severed (through shaidar haran), so he can probably go halfway and make them weaker.

 

Aside from the fact that you are stating this very certainly considering their is ABSOLUTELY no proof anywhere in the series that this is the case, you are also wrong. What Shadar Haren does is not like severing, since when you are severed you can still sense the True Source.

 

Moreover, why would he? Why would he weaken one of his tools when he has already bound her in a mind-trap. It makes literally no sense. You don't chastise an underling in a way that makes then less useful to you when you can do it in a way that still slaps them, but leaves them completely ready to be used by you again.

 

Some of the evidence I think of to bolster my claim that the Oaths do not make up all of the Agelessness is circumstantial. The Wise Ones and the Kin both have some agelessness. Look at how old they are. Slowing from being able to channel itself gives some of the agelessness. When the Aes Sedai who tested on the Oath Rod were cut from the Oaths (and this next is the circumstantial evidence), no mention was made as to them looking different or losing their Agelessness. Granted, the time of being free was very small, but I would have thought others would have noticed and mentioned it.

 

No, the Agelessness is a function of the oath rod. It disrupts the slowing you mentioned previously (likely it taps into it to sustain the binding in some way). As to why none of the black sister de-aged in the brief time they were free, it takes time. We have seen this with Suine and Leane, as well as the three sister Rand stilled in LoC... they retain the agelessness for a brief period, maybe several days, and then it fades away.

 

but stilling wouldn't explain what happened to Lanfear to make her look so different? If she was recycled by the DO that would explain the new body. But, RJ has stated the ability to channel is linked to the soul and IIRC he mentioned that if someone was stilled and died, when they are reborn they can channel. I don't think the effect of being healed by the same side of the OP and its subsequent lessening of the OP ability would carry over to the new incarnation.

 

What the Dark One does is not rebirth, its recycling. It does not match in description at all in that the same personality, the same memories and so forth still manifest. If that much of the soul retains its current manifestation, then so would that souls ability to channel, at least to my mind.

 

My suspicion is that Cyndane was not healed until AFTER she was put in her new body. It even makes sense, if she was put back and the Dark One discovered she could no longer channel, do you think he would discard her out of hand? He would summon an Aes Sedai to heal her, and at one stage Egwene even notes how many Aes Sedai in the rebels camp are travelling about with no one knowing where they went or what they did.

 

I still think that the destruction of the doorway could have severed her link to Randland, and thusly to Lan.

 

Is there any evidence for this?

 

I also still believe that she could have intentionally cut the bond in such a way as to make Lan believe she was dead.

 

Luckers mentioned about releasing the bond before they die, but Moiraine has done plenty of things over the course of this series that were considered taboo or outright forbidden. Just because no one intentionally "cuts" the bond doesn't mean it can't be done. And with her already setting up the transfer to Myrelle, I still think it's possible she did it on purpose.

 

1. Why would Moiraine intentionally cut the bond? Are you forgetting the death-absortion effect? The likelihood of a warder surviving it is very, very low. Why would she do that to Lan? Why not just release it if she were going to do anything at all.

 

2. When would she do it. She was drawing every ounce of the power she could to try and fight Lanfear. She fell into a doorway that subsequently exploded. When particularily was she going to have the power to spare and the concideration to cut the bond?

 

3. Despite your assertion that just because we havn't seen it, it isn't impossible, there is quite a bit of logic against it. One, it seems unlikely the Aes sedai would EVER have thought up something like this, given the unpleasent effects for them. Two, given that they can control or release a warder on will, it also seems unlikely they would have any reason to even concider it. Three, treatment of a warder is held to high moral standards. There are reasons that at one stage the passing of the bond and the releasing of the bond were thought up, there is no reason to cut the bond, therefore the moral ambiguity of such an action (concidering it would more then probably kill the warder) would put it equal with murder or using the One Power as a weapon. Four, spontaneous discovery is out to, since Moiraine would have been in no situation to do that, and if she had Lan would already have his bond severed. You can bet too they aint teaching that in the Tower too, even if another sister discovered it.

 

So, both spantaneuos and intentional reasons for cutting the bond seem void.

 

A final possibility is that it was one of her wishes the Eelfinn granted her. She learned a lot in Ruiedan and she was definitely playing her game with that knowledge. Most of the journeys the characters have made since she left would not have happened with her presence. She knew she had to be out of the picture for events to move forward, so she sacrificed herself.

 

Firstly, when did she have the time? We heard Lan less then a minute after she disapeared and it was already gone. And why would she wish the death-absortion on Lan?

[cannon]

Well in response to your question on when she would have time, I thought that time in fact moved differently between the two worlds? Didn't we establish that with the first doorway back in Tear?

 

And as for the rest of your arguments, you make no point to suggest it can't be done, you're rather arguing "Why would they?"

 

My argument to that point is that Moiraine has done a lot of things that would be considered wrong by most Aes Sedai. My assertion goes something along the lines that:

 

Moiraine learned in Ruidean that she needs to be out of the picture for Rand's next part of his journey. Not to mention for each of the characters to move forward (ie: Lan and Nynaeve, and Lan feeling free to start his war in the Blight). What would she be doing for the past several books.

 

She knows that simply releasing the bond will be completely different. If she's alive, they will try to rescue her, which can only succeed with Mat, Thom and one other. So Lan and Rand in specific cannot try. She must make them believe that she died and the only way to do that is by cutting the bond.

 

Yes, this will cause Lan great grief, but maybe she knows that he can handle it. Or maybe she learned that as well in Ruidean. I'm starting to lean on the crutch of Ruidean a lot here, but we at least know based on the letter that she's aware her escape can only work one way, so she does have more knowledge of the future past the doorway then she immediately lets on.