Question About The 'Reality' of LTT in Rand's Head in Relation To Falme/Bk 2

[mossman87]

Again, I agree Yoniy0. There's a big difference between interraction with a voice that is marked in rand's voice as someone else, and him having his own thoughts that stem from LTT's memory's. I posted previously on the what I see as the difference, and how the turmoil and inner conflict created by those LTT influenced thoughts helped to create the fragmentation that cause the "voice." The memories were all there,but the voice was not.

 

The Death of moiraine pushed him farther down the path, and the voice became much more distinct and personified. Then Dumai's Wells happened and Rand accepted the voice as not just a foreign voice, but as somethin he could have a relationship with. From that point forward Rand accepted the voice as fully legitimate, albeit insane. A sometimes ally, sometimes Rival.

 

I'm not sure how you disagree at all, unless you're saying you don't agree the voice is just LTT's memories being internalized by Rand as a voice because of the insanity and stress?

[Calderis]

Again, I agree Yoniy0. There's a big difference between interraction with a voice that is marked in rand's voice as someone else, and him having his own thoughts that stem from LTT's memory's. I posted previously on the what I see as the difference, and how the turmoil and inner conflict created by those LTT influenced thoughts helped to create the fragmentation that cause the "voice." The memories were all there,but the voice was not.

 

The Death of moiraine pushed him farther down the path, and the voice became much more distinct and personified. Then Dumai's Wells happened and Rand accepted the voice as not just a foreign voice, but as somethin he could have a relationship with. From that point forward Rand accepted the voice as fully legitimate, albeit insane. A sometimes ally, sometimes Rival.

 

I'm not sure how you disagree at all, unless you're saying you don't agree the voice is just LTT's memories being internalized by Rand as a voice because of the insanity and stress?

 

I started the post with "I agree." I was just reinforcing his point.

 

Doesn't TGS end any speculation as to what Lews Therin is inside of Rand's head?  Rand was and is Lews Therin Telamon reborn, the voice in general anyway, was an imbalance dictated by the Pattern itself, most likely to suit its immediate as well as ultimate purposes.

 

To me and Yoniy0, yeah it's pretty obvious. Other peoples opinions don't sync up with that tho.. Not sayin they're wrong, I just don't understand the viewpoint. Hell, half of my argument here is pointing out my opinion in an attempt to see some new evidence to understand their viewpoint. Cause I don't. At all.

[yoniy0]

To mossman87, no, I guess I was oversimplifying, trying to pin everything down to a single point in Rand's life. I totally agree with what Calderis said in response, that it was a gradual thing. I wouldn't want to ignore the importance of Dumai's Wells on that process, but I was thinking more about the trauma. Now that Calderis put it like he has, again, I agree, the legitimacy it gave LTT's 'voice' in Rand's mind is more important. By the way, it's what originally convinced me that LTT was real, as well. I guess RJ did a number on me there :)

[morkhon]

Just finished a reread of CoS, and it struck me overwhelmingly that LTT's voice doesn't make many (if any) appearances in this book. And it has me wondering why. The second half of TFoH it became fairly frequent, and in LoC Rand was constantly hearing the voice and ramblings of the man. Yet in CoS...nothing. So what happened to silence LTT?

 

Maybe it'll pick back up in the next few books (I can't remember if it does), but something shut him up during this book.

[Calderis]

Just finished a reread of CoS, and it struck me overwhelmingly that LTT's voice doesn't make many (if any) appearances in this book. And it has me wondering why. The second half of TFoH it became fairly frequent, and in LoC Rand was constantly hearing the voice and ramblings of the man. Yet in CoS...nothing. So what happened to silence LTT?

 

Maybe it'll pick back up in the next few books (I can't remember if it does), but something shut him up during this book.

 

It does pick back up, almost immediately after Cadsuane mentions voices and Rand starts questioning his own sanity again.

[Samuel]

For the record, I most definitely agree with yoniy0 and Calderis. I found it very obvious by "Veins of Gold" that Lews Therin was indeed a coping mechanism created by a number of factors, used primarily by Rand's mind as something to feed all the insanity into. Notice that in more stressful scenes, Lews Therin talks? Even in LOC, when Rand is on edge and stressed out by Taim, the first strong male channeler (non-Forsaken, a "normal" male channeler) and I would even say irritated that he wasn't the only male channeler anymore (no, I don't believe Rand LIKED being a  male channeler, but I do believe he disliked their being others, at least at that point, to an extent), Lews Therin freaks out and voices Rand's inner, less acceptable thoughts-"Kill him!". Deep down, Rand didn't like Taim at all and didn't want him around, I certainly believe Rand liked the thought of Taim dead. And Lews Therin voiced such an unacceptable, even somewhat insane desire. There are numerous accounts in the series where Rand is in a stressful situation and Lews Therin voices Rand's buried, even primal desires (primarily killing or woe).

 

But, I digress. The point I want to make isn't of the evidence to be found in the text. The point I want to make is the feel of the series, the tone. Robert Jordan weaved an intricate magic system, yes, but his greatest strength was characterization, the depth and power of it. His characters may have been able to throw fireballs, but they weren't magical themselves-they were normal people, in abnormal circumstances. Does Rand actually having a long dead man in his head, voicing Rand's dark desires sound plausible, in the tonal context of the series? Does that not seem poor writing to you, Lews Therin being used soley as a device, meant to be taken literally, that voices what Rand is feeling deep down?? That is poor writing, using such a mechanism just to explain how a character feels. We all know Robert Jordan is a far better writer than to utilise such a sloppy mechanism-there are many instances in the series where we learn a characters deeper, more primal desires (whether through implication, dialouge or internal monolouges). Brandon Sanderson, though even more fond of internal monolouges than Robert Jordan, would never create a concrete, real supposed split personality in a characters head just to make clear that characters darker desires to the reader.

 

So what can we assume from this? We can assume what yoniy0 and Calderis have already put in far better terms that I can-that the memories Rand had of being Lews Therin were indeed genuine, but the supposed voice and personality of Lews Therin was not. The voice was an interface, a coping mechanism, a symptom of madness, however you would describe it-but it was not actually Lews Therin. There is no Lews Therin anymore, just Rand al'Thor. The memories for Lews Therin exist, but the man is long dead, Rand al'Thor is the personality of that soul now.

 

I do not wish to offend but really, within both the tonal and plotting context of the series, the nature of the supposed voice of Lews Therin is made clear.

 

Thankyou yoniy0 and Calderis for putting my thoughts into such clear writing by the way :)

[Durinax]

LTT was awesome, I wish he was real it would be awesome. although I didnt like how LTT was used as a device to cure rand of his hardness by LTT's first 'good' thought or positive thouguht

[tube_ee]

I think the existence of knowledge that Lews Therin had, that Rand Al'Thor could not have learned on his own comes as close to settling this as anything can.

 

The only way that Rand would have knowledge in his mind that only Lews Therin could have possibly known is if it was placed there by some outside agency. The only candidate that we have textual evidence for is the soul of Lews Therin Telamon. If Rand's mind was making it all up, it would be wrong more often that it was right, and so far, Lews Therin's memories are always right.

 

We also know from the Mordeth story that dead souls can occupy new bodies in this world, and even that they can do so by force.

 

We have direct textual evidence of Lews Therin (whatever he is) trying to take over Rand's body and mind.

 

We have Semirhage's observation that it's even worse if the voice is real... implying very directly that such voices can be real.

 

Basically, everything I've read leads me to the conclusion that the Lews Therin persona was as "real" as it's possible for a disembodied voice of a man dead for three thousand years to be, and that Rand Al'Thor was in very real danger of becoming Lews Therin Telamon. That danger has now passed, Rand won the fight. What access he now has to Lews Therin's memories (are they integrated, or are they gone, or something else?) will be spelled out in the last two books. I'll go ahead and bet that the answer to that will be "integrated", simply because we've had so much foreshadowing that only Lews Therin's knowledge can win the Last Battle.

 

I also still wonder about the way in which the Lews Therin / Rand Al'Thor dichotomy plays into the whole "to live you must die" thing. Maybe Rand's victory isn't as complete as we think it is.

 

--Shannon

[morkhon]

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. LTT was the Dragon. Rand is LTT Reborn. They share a soul. Was LTT's voice 'real' is a matter of perspective. Since Rand -is- LTT, any voice he constructs in his mind based on the memories and experiences of LTT is real, given that it's the same soul. I don't require any more criteria to consider the voide 'real'. It's one soul, two personalities. The memories and personality of LTT come through in the voice. To me, that IS LTT.

 

I don't really look at it like Rand is Rand and LTT was LTT. They're both the Dragon. They both share the Dragon's soul.

[yoniy0]

LTT was awesome, I wish he was real it would be awesome. although I didnt like how LTT was used as a device to cure rand of his hardness by LTT's first 'good' thought or positive thouguht

Thank you. I was itching to say how incredibly mushy and gooey I found that chapter to be. Give me a break, not the 'all you need is love' line again. It’s not that I don’t agree, necessarily, it’s just that it was SO corny, don’t you think?

 

I mean, thank god Rand got over himself, I just prefer to forget just exactly how that happened.

[randfandom]

Thank you. I was itching to say how incredibly mushy and gooey I found that chapter to be. Give me a break, not the 'all you need is love' line again. It’s not that I don’t agree, necessarily, it’s just that it was SO corny, don’t you think?

 

Okay, if not for your loved ones, what else is there to live for? What other reason would Rand have to sacrifice himself if not to provide the people he cared for (or their souls) with a future? Should he have done that for the sake of the world and the pattern? A bit cold and inhuman, wouldn't you say?

[yoniy0]

Thank you. I was itching to say how incredibly mushy and gooey I found that chapter to be. Give me a break, not the 'all you need is love' line again. It’s not that I don’t agree, necessarily, it’s just that it was SO corny, don’t you think?

 

Okay, if not for your loved ones, what else is there to live for? What other reason would Rand have to sacrifice himself if not to provide the people he cared for (or their souls) with a future? Should he have done that for the sake of the world and the pattern? A bit cold and inhuman, wouldn't you say?

It’s not that I don’t agree, necessarily, it’s just that it was SO corny, don’t you think? :)

[Durinax]

Thank you. I was itching to say how incredibly mushy and gooey I found that chapter to be. Give me a break, not the 'all you need is love' line again. Its not that I dont agree, necessarily, its just that it was SO corny, dont you think?

 

Okay, if not for your loved ones, what else is there to live for? What other reason would Rand have to sacrifice himself if not to provide the people he cared for (or their souls) with a future? Should he have done that for the sake of the world and the pattern? A bit cold and inhuman, wouldn't you say?

Its not that I dont agree, necessarily, its just that it was SO corny, dont you think? :)

like come on it is such a sappy thing, a 'voice' that wishes to absolutely destroy a lot of stuff, and all we have seen or heard from him is destructive all of a sudden says lets do it so we can love in a moment of selfreflection its too much of a gimmick

[jemron]

It makes me wonder how RJ would've written it.  Obviously this was meant to happen, but BS has a tendency to write in a much more straighforward, less metaphoric way.  I wonder how it would've turned out with RJ behind the wheel (no pun intended).

 

I liked it, but also felt is a bit of a cop-out.  Still, what better reasons to save the world than love and redemption?

[Axon]

It would not shock me if we saw or heard from LTT at the last battle.  I'd love to see Rand and LTT team up on the Dark One, even if it's a stretch with one being the reborn version of the other.  Rand is clearly a distinct person, however. He's only the Dragon Reborn because the legend of LTT echoes into every age...if LTT was forgotten, he'd just be the Dragon.

[OneDragon]

I see it this way, Rand IS LTT and if he speaks to himself in his head the voice is his own (also LTT´s, since he himself is LTT) and therefore the voice in his head is real. He just didnt realise it until veins of gold.

[Durinax]

It makes me wonder how RJ would've written it.  Obviously this was meant to happen, but BS has a tendency to write in a much more straighforward, less metaphoric way.  I wonder how it would've turned out with RJ behind the wheel (no pun intended).

 

I liked it, but also felt is a bit of a cop-out.  Still, what better reasons to save the world than love and redemption?

alcohol and lust?

[sdelu]

It makes me wonder how RJ would've written it.  Obviously this was meant to happen, but BS has a tendency to write in a much more straighforward, less metaphoric way.  I wonder how it would've turned out with RJ behind the wheel (no pun intended).

 

I liked it, but also felt is a bit of a cop-out.  Still, what better reasons to save the world than love and redemption?

 

How do we even know RJ didn't write it? I believe Harriet said most people were getting their guesses wrong on which parts who wrote.

 

Either way, while it is a little "out of left field" if you will, it does make a certain amount of sense. I'm not going to argue that it isn't corny as heck, but it's not complete bs at least.  Consider that "LTT" as we know him is essentially Rand's way of dealing with his memories of LTT's life and that that is the reason the LTT in Rand's head is mad, it makes sense that Rand would also have access to the memories of love and LTT's sane moments.  Why, then, could "LTT" not save Rand, if he is a mechanism to help preserve Rand's sanity?  Maybe LTT had this same epiphany in his life, and the answer was there all along?  In his moment of need he reaches out for the answer, any answer, and finds he had been hiding it from himself all along.  I don't think that's too random, really.

 

Or, it could just be hokey bs.  Either way, I didn't mind it too much.  Nothing like that can make me near as sick as the ending to Tad Williams's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.  Yuck!

[Calderis]

Oh god, seriously. That series was awesome. Build up, build up, build up... Wait. What???? Damn you Tad Williams

[Beer Rot]

It makes me wonder how RJ would've written it.  Obviously this was meant to happen, but BS has a tendency to write in a much more straighforward, less metaphoric way.  I wonder how it would've turned out with RJ behind the wheel (no pun intended).

 

You're assuming RJ didn't write it.

[FarShainMael]

It makes me wonder how RJ would've written it.  Obviously this was meant to happen, but BS has a tendency to write in a much more straighforward, less metaphoric way.  I wonder how it would've turned out with RJ behind the wheel (no pun intended).

 

I liked it, but also felt is a bit of a cop-out.  Still, what better reasons to save the world than love and redemption?

 

How do we even know RJ didn't write it? I believe Harriet said most people were getting their guesses wrong on which parts who wrote.

 

Either way, while it is a little "out of left field" if you will, it does make a certain amount of sense. I'm not going to argue that it isn't corny as heck, but it's not complete bs at least.  Consider that "LTT" as we know him is essentially Rand's way of dealing with his memories of LTT's life and that that is the reason the LTT in Rand's head is mad, it makes sense that Rand would also have access to the memories of love and LTT's sane moments.  Why, then, could "LTT" not save Rand, if he is a mechanism to help preserve Rand's sanity?  Maybe LTT had this same epiphany in his life, and the answer was there all along?  In his moment of need he reaches out for the answer, any answer, and finds he had been hiding it from himself all along.  I don't think that's too random, really.

 

Hmm, I wonder.. In those last few chapters, the distinction between the two voices is blurring. At one point we have Rand saying 'why have we come here' and Rand answering 'because this is where we died'. Were the two personalities meeting, swapping, changing places? At the end there, was it LTT who was preparing to use the CK to destroy everything, and Rand, the saner of the two, whose 'veins of gold' were still shining in him, the one giving the answer?

 

[Calderis]

It makes me wonder how RJ would've written it.  Obviously this was meant to happen, but BS has a tendency to write in a much more straighforward, less metaphoric way.  I wonder how it would've turned out with RJ behind the wheel (no pun intended).

 

I liked it, but also felt is a bit of a cop-out.  Still, what better reasons to save the world than love and redemption?

 

How do we even know RJ didn't write it? I believe Harriet said most people were getting their guesses wrong on which parts who wrote.

 

Either way, while it is a little "out of left field" if you will, it does make a certain amount of sense. I'm not going to argue that it isn't corny as heck, but it's not complete bs at least.  Consider that "LTT" as we know him is essentially Rand's way of dealing with his memories of LTT's life and that that is the reason the LTT in Rand's head is mad, it makes sense that Rand would also have access to the memories of love and LTT's sane moments.  Why, then, could "LTT" not save Rand, if he is a mechanism to help preserve Rand's sanity?  Maybe LTT had this same epiphany in his life, and the answer was there all along?  In his moment of need he reaches out for the answer, any answer, and finds he had been hiding it from himself all along.  I don't think that's too random, really.

 

Hmm, I wonder.. In those last few chapters, the distinction between the two voices is blurring. At one point we have Rand saying 'why have we come here' and Rand answering 'because this is where we died'. Were the two personalities meeting, swapping, changing places? At the end there, was it LTT who was preparing to use the CK to destroy everything, and Rand, the saner of the two, whose 'veins of gold' were still shining in him, the one giving the answer?

 

 

Your still trying to view them as two seperate people and that's the problem. Rand's use of the word we shows the advancementy of Rand's accetance of LTT as a part of himself, and a step towards the reintegration we see.

[sdelu]

Hmm, I wonder.. In those last few chapters, the distinction between the two voices is blurring. At one point we have Rand saying 'why have we come here' and Rand answering 'because this is where we died'. Were the two personalities meeting, swapping, changing places? At the end there, was it LTT who was preparing to use the CK to destroy everything, and Rand, the saner of the two, whose 'veins of gold' were still shining in him, the one giving the answer?

 

 

Your still trying to view them as two seperate people and that's the problem. Rand's use of the word we shows the advancementy of Rand's accetance of LTT as a part of himself, and a step towards the reintegration we see.

 

Yeah. Rand and LTT are not two separate people in one head, they are just two personalities, one real and one "artificial". But at the same time, the fact that they are the same soul reborn does not mean that Rand IS LTT -- Rand is Rand, with access to LTT's memories. They are not separate, but are distinct. Which is exactly why it makes a certain amount of sense that Rand could have his epiphany via LTT -- LTT knew love in his life, and since it wasn't actually crazy-insane LTT saying those things (but the personality Rand used to "protect" himself from memories of his soul's previous incarnation), the answer was "there" all along.

 

The entire series built up to this point, in a way. We see LTT constantly moaning about Ilyena, then Rand not hurting women, and Rand afraid to love because he doesn't want to hurt anyone, and Rand pushing people away constantly. The entire time he thinks it's so unfair that this burden has been placed on him and only wants to get it over with, but the fact is that he had to realize what meaning his life had, and what value there was in living it. Perhaps it was done a bit quickly, but for him to ever heal that was a pretty logical step.

 

And there was no way that LTT was the "mad" one at the end, really. That was Rand's conflict.

[FarShainMael]

From sdelu:

Yeah. Rand and LTT are not two separate people in one head, they are just two personalities, one real and one "artificial". But at the same time, the fact that they are the same soul reborn does not mean that Rand IS LTT -- Rand is Rand, with access to LTT's memories. They are not separate, but are distinct.

 

I agree entirely, and that's why I called them 'personalities', NOT people.

 

I was trying to explore what was going on within the Dragon Reborn's mind at the end of tGS, using BS's own convention - calling one of these personalities Rand and the other LTT. To date 'Rand' has been the label given to the apparently sane personality, while LTT is the label given to the apparently mad one. It seemed to me that these labels had changed places. The madman had become dominant-Rand; what was left of the sane one, the 'quiet voice in his heart', had surfaced as the construct-LTT. Which is in agreement with your closing sentence.

 

[Calderis]

From sdelu:

Yeah. Rand and LTT are not two separate people in one head, they are just two personalities, one real and one "artificial". But at the same time, the fact that they are the same soul reborn does not mean that Rand IS LTT -- Rand is Rand, with access to LTT's memories. They are not separate, but are distinct.

 

I agree entirely, and that's why I called them 'personalities', NOT people.

 

I was trying to explore what was going on within the Dragon Reborn's mind at the end of tGS, using BS's own convention - calling one of these personalities Rand and the other LTT. To date 'Rand' has been the label given to the apparently sane personality, while LTT is the label given to the apparently mad one. It seemed to me that these labels had changed places. The madman had become dominant-Rand; what was left of the sane one, the 'quiet voice in his heart', had surfaced as the construct-LTT. Which is in agreement with your closing sentence.

 

 

And I do agree with that. the wording you used painted a very different picture in my brain, though.