Flying with the One Power-- It can be done

[clensedsource]

If you rember, the weave can stop anything short of balefire, so why wouldn't it stop you.

[drakhon]

If you rember, the weave can stop anything short of balefire, so why wouldn't it stop you.

 

It would stop you, sure, but it's irrelevant. In order for it to stop you, you have to touch it, which would be standing on the bottom of the cocoon in this case. Shape it like a cocoon or a slab of steel and you're still trying to pick up something that you are standing on.

[Xeonicus]

Not sure if someone already mentioned it... but in The Great Hunt, Ch. "To The White Tower", the Amyrlin Seat says:

 

"The records say Aes Sedai could fly, in the Age of Legends, but they aren't clear on how, exactly. Not this way, though. It doesn't work like that. You might reach out with your hands and pick up a chest that weighs as much as you do; you look strong. But take hold of yourself however you will, you cannot pick yourself up."

 

The way its worded, it does not appear to me that she considers flying machines as a viable explanation. However, this is only her personal view perhaps, so she could be ignorant of the reality of things in the AoL.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The way its worded, it does not appear to me that she considers flying machines as a viable explanation. However, this is only her personal view perhaps, so she could be ignorant of the reality of things in the AoL.

 

Xeonicus, if you traveled to a distant place via airplane, you could say something like "I flew to Outer Mongolia yesterday." (I'm assuming your;s not from Ulaanbataar, or Dalandzadgad, if you are, I apologize.) My point is, contemporary records of the time would not have felt obligated to point out the use of technology, it was assumed, just as we would not think you flapped your arms to get to the Great Steppe, even though you may not have mentioned an airplane. So when the records mention "Aes Sedai flew", and Rand sees Sho-wings in his ancestors memories ... well, its not hard to see how those two reconcile. And you hit the other nail on the head, Siuan's ignorance of those facts is the reason for her failure to consider the use of Power-based technology.

 

If you rember, the weave can stop anything short of balefire, so why wouldn't it stop you.

 

Because balefire didn't channel it. The problem isn't flows contacting a human, it is contacting the channeler personally.

[clensedsource]

But the flows don't need to touch the user, they are made around you. Balefire is woven AT you not conected to you, that is why it dosen't home in on your target. Lifting someone off the ground only requires that the air AROUND them is hardened.

[drakhon]

The "hardened air" is the weave, but it doesn't matter. The reason you can't pick yourself up with the Power isn't because the weaves don't work on you (like Healing), it's simply a limitation of the Power.

 

You may be strong enough to lift a building, but walk inside that building and you can no longer pick it up.

 

You can't pick a piece of wood up with your arms while you're standing on it. Neither can you pick it up with the Power.

[clensedsource]

It is imposible to directly lift yourself, you could use heat to lift you if you were protected.

[Jedimuppet]

... but if you don't anchor it to YOURSELF somehow' date=' how is it going to PICK YOU UP so that you can FLY? How will the flows LIFT YOURSELF INTO THE AIR unless they TOUCH YOU somehow?

 

 

People, seriously, if it were that simple Aes Sedai would be zipping around left and right.[/quote']

 

The flows won't lift you, they'll push you.

J

[Xeonicus]

What if you used a variation on the air thickening method? Enclose yourself in air thickened as dense as water. Obviously you couldn't actually touch yourself, but you should be able to encase your basic body shape in a sphere around you. Then have it move with you and you "swim" through the air.

 

lol... maybe not

 

still... I don't know what the point would be. It wouldn't be a very quick way to travel... and if you wanted to get up somewhere high, you could just have one channeler air lift one person up, and vice versa.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The flows won't lift you, they'll push you.

 

 

 

I am truly agog. Jedimuppet .... lifting is pushing in an upward direction. If they can't lift you, they can't push you, each is an example of exerting force.

 

It is imposible to directly lift yourself, you could use heat to lift you if you were protected.

 

The heat would lift the weave, which would in turn have to lift you. If the heat is the only thing touching you, it would be like standing in a fire. If you have a shield you may not get burned, but you're not going to start floating either. There isn't enough of a surface area:mass ratio for heat to directly lift a human body.

[drakhon]

You could use weaves of Fire in place of the burner on a hot air balloon, but that's still a device powered by the Power.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Exactly my point ... you can use the Power on something outside yourself, and then that thing can affect you, but you cannot affect yourself with the Power in that way.

[drakhon]

Right. I think they're just trying to find ways around that rule.

 

You could potentially make a Power construct of a hot air balloon, but so far the constructs we've seen have all been metal-like. Moiraine's coin and wall, Rand and Siuan's swords and Nyneave's crowbar, all solid and heavy. Not the right material for a balloon.

 

At that point, though, I wouldn't consider it "flying with the Power". It's still a device.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yup.

[Jedimuppet]

Again, no reason to believe an air cocoon could not be made to provide lift with a fire/air thruster on it. It wouldn't be anchored to anything because it would be mobile, and push you along with it, just like any solid would. You would not be lifting yourself, as you would be pushed by a solid mass of air moving independently. Not sure why that's hard to understand.

 

J

[KaptainKaos]

Wow, somebody really needs to help out Robert with this discussion because I think he might end up doing some Forsaken like things soon if lightbulbs don't start to go on... I have tried in several of my earlier posts to help but it hasn't seemed to do much so I guess I better just keep going before we have a modern day Betrayer of Hope on our hands. There is only one thing I can say that will help that I haven't already posted on this topic. Trying to prove that there is a way to fly around like superman using the Source is like having a topic in these forums: Healing yourself with the One Power, it can be done or even better Impregnating with the One Power, it can be done (So if I use earth and fire and a little piece of grass comes out after 9 months can we use the fire that comes out next to smoke it?). Come on this is a pointless debate for those who are trying to prove that somehow in the last book Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Windfinders, Wise Women, and all the wilders are all going to become D.C. Comic book heroes and join the League of Justice. Personally I am glad that there are limitations to the Power in this regard. Why would anyone who can transport themselves instantaneously because of Traveling or Skimming want to fly around anyway, in the books I could only see it being used as a show for entertainment or intimidation similar to the Seanchan Sky Lights. Besides flying around in the air during a battle especially when the other side has powerful channelers on their side would be pretty much suicide no matter how fast you could fly. But since I spoke of what the Wheel of Time series would be like if the channelers could fly those of you who still haven't gotten the point and continue to insist there is some way for them to start flying around like Superman should just start at the top of my post again. And probably read all of my previous posts.

 

Seriously people, the title of this topic shouldn't even be in a Dragonmount Wheel of Time Forum. Flying with the One Power, it can NOT be done (in the conventional superman way at least).

 

Okay those of you still arguing that there must be some weave, some way just shhhh, yes, shhhhh. Take your arguments up with the author, it's his world, his rules and if every rule that is made needs to be debated why not debate the whole why can't Rand just discover a weave of all the five powers mixed that will erase the Dark One and everyone affliated with him in the blink of an eye.

[drakhon]

Again, no reason to believe an air cocoon could not be made to provide lift with a fire/air thruster on it. It wouldn't be anchored to anything because it would be mobile, and push you along with it, just like any solid would. You would not be lifting yourself, as you would be pushed by a solid mass of air moving independently. Not sure why that's hard to understand.

 

It's because you don't seem to understand that lifting "a solid mass of air" with you on it (or in it, in the case of a cocoon) is still lifting yourself.

 

If I put you in a wood box and tell you to lift it, you would not be able to. The same limitation exists if you could channel the Power in the attempt.

 

As for a cocoon with an Air/Fire thruster, real thrusters generate force by expelling mass in the opposite direction. Something like you describe would not expel mass because it has no mass to expel. The Power would be generating all the force and a force generated by the Power alone CAN NOT lift you if you are the one using the Power.

[RobertAlexWillis]

lol .... i'll be ok Kaptain, i'm used to it.

[OnePower-Napalm]

I could have sworn I've seen this topic somewhere before.... oh ya! on these very forums!

 

I'll just copy paste and make it easy on myself. I very clearly explain the problems with anchoring, flight and LoS.

 

"With that said i will continue. I believe it is well known that you cannot channel on something you cannot see, correct? (I.E. trying to lift a rock behind a hill while your on the other side) And because of this you cannot channel on yourself, because you cannot see yourself in entierty. (I am assuming you cannot reflect the power off a mirror ) By the same methods you cannot channel on something you are standing on (I.E. the aircraft carrier). The entire matter of line of sight issues are the cause of all of this.

 

You can lift the carrier (assuming you are strong enough in the power :shock: ) when you are not on it because you can see it. And obviously you can lift anything else, including other people. This goes back to the original theory of two people lifting each other.

 

Anchoring is not a problem with this theory. What you do is you have one of the channelers lift the other. The lifted one is now "anchored" to the power that is lifting him/her. Using the leverage, like the ground, you lift the other person. Thus you continue in this manner in "flight". The first channeler must, however, be strong enough to lift the both of them. Thier combined weight falls upon his/her channeling in the end.

 

Of course doing that is hardly worth all the effort but I certainly think you can do this. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a nice little picture of how this could be done in my mind. "

 

That part about the aircraft carrier is pertaining to the comments in the previous thread, but could mean anything from the door to a manhole like object. \

[OnePower-Napalm]

Forgive the dual posts but I also have another theory if people seem to think that one wrong. Once again I'll copy paste from the previous thread.

 

"With that said I will continue with my second post. I have another theory on flight. But first I need to re-emphasize a few points. I believe that talents, such as Dreaming and Foretelling do not use the OP, correct? And also, Didn't Moiraine say that Rand might have discovered the Talent of Flight? Perhaps it never used the OP at all and was misinterrpreted as having done so. In this way, not all Aes Sedai could fly, only those with the Talent."

 

Then, responding from critisism:

"I did not mean that you could do such things without the ability to channel. What I meant is that, like Dreaming and Foretelling, you may not directly channel the OP to fly. Perhaps it is more like those in the way that you don't use the OP to accomplish it, but must be a channeler to have access to this Talent.

 

It would actually make very good sense for this to be the case. Since things that can be accomplished with such Talents are not normaly thought of to be accomplishable with the OP alone, and don't neccesarily follow the same rules as channeling."

 

Personally I like this one better, for one reason only. I think that the two people flying each other would have been tried and accomplished by now, but hey!, you never know. :)

 

Edit: Fixed a couple spelling errors and what not, no change to actual post content.

[drakhon]

I think that it is just that whatever force you generate directly with the Power comes from you.

 

When you lift someone with your body, you exert a force on them but they also exert a force on you and you exert a force on the ground. When you use the Power to do this, due to its nature, you don't feel the force applied back on you and it only really comes into play when you try to lift yourself.

 

Say you were standing on a piece of metal, say 18" x 18". There is another piece directly above you. Whatever force is applied to the top piece is applied to the bottom piece as well through some mechanical means. You push UP on the piece above you which also pushes UP on the piece you are standing on (pushing on yourself with the Power). However, in pushing UP you are also applying a force DOWN through your feet into the bottom piece, which means you are pushing down on the top piece as well. These forces are equal, but opposite, and so cancel out.

 

When you try to lift yourself with the Power, you are applying an upward force on yourself. However, because that force originates from you, you are also applying an equal force in the opposite direction. These cancel out and you are unable to lift yourself. This goes for any case where the Power is generating the force directly. Obviously, turning a propeller that moves a plane to generate lift with its wings does not apply.