Seals and Prophecy

[Shadow Rider]

I would like to here peoples views on the breaking Seals, it is my thought that every time Rand fulfills a prophecy of the Dragon a seal breaks....I think there is only one prophecy left and one seal...

it is my thought that the dark one has been herding Rand into fulfilling prophecy ultimately freeing the Darkone....any thoughts on this....dissagreements....all welcome

[J-Rad]

I think it's been confirmed that in order to re-seal the bore Rand would have to break the seals and start from scratch.  So what you claim can't really be true, because the Dark One can't be killed the only way to defeat him is to seal up the bore.  So ultimatley, he would have to destroy all the seals before he can fulfill teh final prophecy of defeating the Dark One.  Also I'm pretty sure there are more than 7 phrophecies.

[mb]

I take the 3 whole seals are still intact.  The books I think would have told if any of those 3 broke.

Rand might have checked them off-screen after the attacks on Bashere & Dobraine are reported to him.

 

To me there seems not a correlation between Rand fulfilling prophecy and a seal braking.

First seal that broke (first found seal) was in the Eye.  So far, the books do not tell whether or not the event there was prophecy.

Second and Third seals that broke (second and third found seals) were found at Falme.  One was intact sometime before it was found.  One prophecy was fulfilled around that time and location (5 ride forth, 4 return); slight chance of that seal breaking being related to that prophecy.  Other seal I take was long broken before it was found.

Fourth seal that broke (sixth found seal) found in Tanchico and broke on way to Salidar; no known prophecy was fulfilled near that path nor around that time.

 

Also, there are times when a Seal was still intact after Rand fulfilled a prophecy.  Drawing Callandor is one.  His birth is another.  If the Cleansing fulfilled a prophecy, that event is a third.

 

[Crael123]

what prophecy did the cleansing fufil?

[Nightstrike]

Prophecies of the Dragon:

He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf." He "shall bind the nine moons to serve him." He will heal "wounds of madness and cutting of hope." What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?

 

 

[Durinax]

I think that he cleansed saidin in order to save himself and everyone else, not for a prophecy. I think the wounds of madness and cutting of hope are the ones that are in his sides

[Shadow Rider]

I take the 3 whole seals are still intact.  The books I think would have told if any of those 3 broke.

Rand might have checked them off-screen after the attacks on Bashere & Dobraine are reported to him.

 

To me there seems not a correlation between Rand fulfilling prophecy and a seal braking.

First seal that broke (first found seal) was in the Eye.  So far, the books do not tell whether or not the event there was prophecy.

Second and Third seals that broke (second and third found seals) were found at Falme.  One was intact sometime before it was found.  One prophecy was fulfilled around that time and location (5 ride forth, 4 return); slight chance of that seal breaking being related to that prophecy.  Other seal I take was long broken before it was found.

Fourth seal that broke (sixth found seal) found in Tanchico and broke on way to Salidar; no known prophecy was fulfilled near that path nor around that time.

 

Also, there are times when a Seal was still intact after Rand fulfilled a prophecy.  Drawing Callandor is one.  His birth is another.  If the Cleansing fulfilled a prophecy, that event is a third.

 

 

 

 

The first seal became fragile The day of his birth....The last will break with the blood of the Dragon on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

[Agitel]

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,

born of a maiden wed to no man.

 

Check.

 

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.

 

Check.

 

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

Check.

 

Five ride forth, and four return.

Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,

bannered ‘cross the sky in fire.

 

Check.

 

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come.

 

Check.

 

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

 

Check.

 

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,

dances the sword in dreams and mist,

chains the Shadowsworn to his will,

from the city, lost and forsaken,

leads the spears to war once more,

breaks the spears and makes them see,

truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

 

Check.

 

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,

and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.

The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice,

and he shall wear a crown of swords.

 

Check?

 

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

 

Check.

 

I don't think the seals are tied to a single prophecy, there are too many. The seals seem to be based on the Seven Seals of the Apocalypse from Christian end times lore. According to Revelation, as each seal breaks, a horseman of the apocalypse will ride. And they will be Religious Conquest/False Prophets, Conflict War, Famine & Drought, and Death. I think we've actually followed those quite closely as each of the first four seals have broken. Also, I'd like to point out this prophecy from the Karaethon Cycle.

 

The Seals that hold back the night shall weaken,

and in the heart of winter shall winter’s heart be born,

amid the wailings of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,

for winter’s heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.

[Shadow Rider]

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,

born of a maiden wed to no man.

 

Check.

 

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.

 

Check.

 

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

Check.

 

Five ride forth, and four return.

Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,

bannered ‘cross the sky in fire.

 

Check.

 

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come.

 

Check.

 

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

 

Check.

 

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,

dances the sword in dreams and mist,

chains the Shadowsworn to his will,

from the city, lost and forsaken,

leads the spears to war once more,

breaks the spears and makes them see,

truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

 

Check.

 

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,

and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.

The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice,

and he shall wear a crown of swords.

 

Check?

 

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

 

Check.

 

I don't think the seals are tied to a single prophecy, there are too many. The seals seem to be based on the Seven Seals of the Apocalypse from Christian end times lore. According to Revelation, as each seal breaks, a horseman of the apocalypse will ride. And they will be Religious Conquest/False Prophets, Conflict War, Famine & Drought, and Death. I think we've actually followed those quite closely as each of the first four seals have broken. Also, I'd like to point out this prophecy from the Karaethon Cycle.

 

The Seals that hold back the night shall weaken,

and in the heart of winter shall winter’s heart be born,

amid the wailings of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,

for winter’s heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,

born of a maiden wed to no man.

 

Check.

 

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.

 

Check.

 

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

Check.

 

Five ride forth, and four return.

Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,

bannered ‘cross the sky in fire.

 

Check.

 

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come.

 

Check.

 

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

 

Check.

 

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,

dances the sword in dreams and mist,

chains the Shadowsworn to his will,

from the city, lost and forsaken,

leads the spears to war once more,

breaks the spears and makes them see,

truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

 

Check.

 

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,

and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.

The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice,

and he shall wear a crown of swords.

 

Check?

 

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

 

Check.

 

I don't think the seals are tied to a single prophecy, there are too many. The seals seem to be based on the Seven Seals of the Apocalypse from Christian end times lore. According to Revelation, as each seal breaks, a horseman of the apocalypse will ride. And they will be Religious Conquest/False Prophets, Conflict War, Famine & Drought, and Death. I think we've actually followed those quite closely as each of the first four seals have broken. Also, I'd like to point out this prophecy from the Karaethon Cycle.

 

The Seals that hold back the night shall weaken,

and in the heart of winter shall winter’s heart be born,

amid the wailings of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,

for winter’s heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.

 

 

Excellent...but The Prophecies aren't one liners...some of these prophecies are together part of other lines....is there somewhere we can view all prophecies in there intireity?

[Nightstrike]

BWB:

Interviews with imprisoned Darkfriends revealed that a number of them received instructions from Ishamael long before the other Forsaken were freed (an event generally agreed to have occured in 997 or 998 NE, and to have been caused by the gradual weakening of the seals).

BWB:

No one is certain why the population has declined, though some theorize that it has been caused by the Dark One's touch through the gradually weakening seals.

[Agitel]

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,

born of a maiden wed to no man.

 

Check.

 

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.

 

Check.

 

Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live, and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

 

Check.

 

Five ride forth, and four return.

Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,

bannered ‘cross the sky in fire.

 

Check.

 

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come.

 

Check.

 

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

 

Check.

 

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.

The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,

dances the sword in dreams and mist,

chains the Shadowsworn to his will,

from the city, lost and forsaken,

leads the spears to war once more,

breaks the spears and makes them see,

truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

 

Check.

 

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,

and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.

The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice,

and he shall wear a crown of swords.

 

Check?

 

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

 

Check.

 

I don't think the seals are tied to a single prophecy, there are too many. The seals seem to be based on the Seven Seals of the Apocalypse from Christian end times lore. According to Revelation, as each seal breaks, a horseman of the apocalypse will ride. And they will be Religious Conquest/False Prophets, Conflict War, Famine & Drought, and Death. I think we've actually followed those quite closely as each of the first four seals have broken. Also, I'd like to point out this prophecy from the Karaethon Cycle.

 

The Seals that hold back the night shall weaken,

and in the heart of winter shall winter’s heart be born,

amid the wailings of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,

for winter’s heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.

 

Excellent...but The Prophecies aren't one liners...some of these prophecies are together part of other lines....is there somewhere we can view all prophecies in there intireity?

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Karaethon_Cycle

[mb]

what prophecy did the cleansing fufil?

Nightstrike quoted it.  (Rand healing wounds of madness and cutting of hope)

 

I think that he cleansed saidin in order to save himself and everyone else, not for a prophecy.

Fulfilling a prophecy does not depend on the person's reason.

 

I think the wounds of madness and cutting of hope are the ones that are in his sides

Even if Rand comes up with a way to Heal self, neither wound on the side seems to cause madness or cut hope.

 

 

Also, there are times when a Seal was still intact after Rand fulfilled a prophecy.  Drawing Callandor is one.  His birth is another.  If the Cleansing fulfilled a prophecy, that event is a third.

Seals have also remained intact after he fulfilled a number of Viewings/Dreams.