It Begger's Belief:

[Genesis_XVI]

I'm a firm believer that Rand will spend time as a begger. I have many wacky theories that extend onto this - all of which have very little supporting evidence - but believe that Rand spending a portion of aMol as a poor, blind derro is almost certain, even if my unlikely theories aren't. As such, I'd just like to know what all of you think. Do you agree that Rand will spend time as a begger? Do you think it's a metaphor for something else (poverty of spirit perhaps)? If you do think he will, how will it fit into the story? What will he learn/accomplish?

 

-Genesis_XVI, the freshmaker.

 

:)

 

PS- "There's not enough room in the story for it", is an unimaginative response. Although entirely possible.

[Gandaal]

He's already used it as a disguise so I assume he'll be using it again for some reason. He's far too important in the grand scheme of things for him to spend his time sitting on the side of the street begging for spare change like a real begger, unless its his destined future post Last Battle.

[TheDiceAgain...]

I think the Rand/beggar conection is more symbolic than anything else. We know that Perrin had a wolf dream of of Rand as a blind beggar and we also know that Moridin puts great importance on the "Fisher" peice in his AoL chess game because of its unique strengths and weaknesses (I know it's not chess, but follow me here...) The connection of these two images makes me think its not a prediction for his monetary future but rather a comment of his state of being.

 

My thought is that the Fisher is symbolic of Rand and his importance to the coming events. You might say that it's more a comment on Rand's current state of mind and body than anything else. WIth all of his physical injuries and what I consider the extraordinarily brittle shell that he has built up around anythig resembling normal emotions while trying to be hard enough to survive, Rand is in a very bad place now. If he doesn't get help soon, from an emotional point of view especially, he's going to fly apart and be about as useful as a pile of dung when the Last Battle fianlly rears its ugly head.

 

Actually, it fits well with the state of the world at the moment and is very reminiscent of the Arthiurian legend of the Fisher King who suffered or prospered in sympathy with the land. So, no I don't think Rand is going to get turned out on the doorstep in a tunic of sack cloth with a moldy crust of bread, but I do think that in order to win he has to realize that the Battle is not the reason to living, but rather what happens afterwards that he is fighting for.

[rochaid]

i think he could become a begar,as was already said it does fit in with arthurian legend.in these legends various objects were needed to restore power to the equivalent of the fisher king.the WoT equivalents would be callandor(the sword),the bowl of winds(the cauldren),the crown of swords(the crown),and the last (the spear)could be the seanchan sceptre,mat's spear,maybe even the aiel.

 

so u can make what u like out of this,but rand does seem to be very similar to out own fisher king legends

[Luckers]

Ther simply isn't time for such a plot. Nah, its just symbolic.

[rochaid]

i don't think it will actually happen,i was just saying it could.there does seem to be too little time though,that said,i don't see how a lot of things are going to fit into even a larger than average book

[HighLordXanthus]

It is my belief that Rand as a begger probably already happened. When rand went AWOL to far madding and elsewhere he was for all purpuses gone from the world, and the visions and viewings to such affect were meant to symbolize this withdrawl from the world for a time. To prepare for the cleansing he did of saidin. The only other option, one that would kill two ravens with on stone would be for rand to pose as a begger to gain entrance to the court of the nine moons to see tuon. He could then bend knee, as any begger would have to do, then some how gain her ear, perhaps through mat and reveal who is actually is.

[TheDiceAgain...]

THe Prophecy of the Dragon Reborn bending a knee to the Crystal Throne isn't true. I don't have the source right now, but that was inserted into the Seanchan verision of the K Cycle by Ishy. It's a false prophecy. To my mind at least, Mat has alreay tied the Court of the Nine Moons to Rand.

 

P.S - I'll try and find the source of this and post it in a second...

 

Edit:

Ah, here it is:

 

We know from the BWB that Ishy was Hawkwing's advisor and that he convinced Hawkwing to send Lothair across the Aryth Ocean, thereby "sealing two dooms" from TEoTW.

In Ch. 24 of POD, the Seanchan General Miraj comments in his POV:

 

The prophecies of the dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the consolidation. in corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of the Karaethon cyle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too-not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!

 

So if the two versions are different and Ishy was in a position that would allow him to change them, doesn't it make sense that the Seanchan Prophecies are false?

 

In the Randland version, Rand will "bind the none moons to serve him". It only takes a bit of creative linguistics to chamge that to "he will be bound to serve the nine moons" or as Tuon says, "The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost."

 

She and all the Seanchan are laboring under a misinterpretation fostered by a Forsaken.

[Genesis_XVI]

I have to disagree Dice. I don't think it's false at all. While I realise the sources are potenitally corrupted, I don't think that one particular reference would have been brought up at all, without it having some significance.

 

I think it will happen something more along the lines of how HLX said it would:

 

gain entrance to the court of the nine moons to see tuon. He could then bend knee, as any begger would have to do, then some how gain her ear, perhaps through mat and reveal who is actually is.

 

-Genesis_XVI

[Luckers]

We know its false for one very specific reason,other then the obvious ones. RJ has said that he will never go back to Seanchan again in the main sequence novels. That would mean that the prophecy would have to be symbolic... refering to Rand actually serving the seanchan... which wont happen.

 

The propecy was false... the way RJ gave it to us makes that more then obvious.

[Aviendha]

While respecting your pov Genesis - you could have the right of it - I have to agree with TheDice. The way I've always read it was that the Seanchan version had been deliberately doctored. The bit about kneeling before the Crystal Throne had been added by the Foresaken to cause trouble.

 

About the Beggar ... I don't think has happened yet. References like this are usually easy to spot - like the crown of swords - and (most of?) the other things that Min viewed at the time have happened . I like to think it will happen literally but I haven't yet figured out how it would. Rand would have to hit rock bottom again (and then come out of it before the LB) and time is running short (only 1 book to wrap it all up!). I do like the idea of Rand dressing up as a Beggar to get entry somewhere but somehow this doesn't feel right unless I've missed/forgotten some reference to Beggars having special access to some place.

[HighLordXanthus]

could not the seanchan prophosies be simply twisted by dark prophesy? If that is the case, we know for fact that dark prophesies also have a way of coming true. Remember the one found when fain was rescued.

[nescedral]

On a different note, when Rand entered Cold Rocks Hold in The Shadow Rising, he asked to enter as if he were a beggar rather than asking as if he were the chief of chiefs. I don't expect everyone to jump up and say "that settles it, he was already a beggar," but hey, he was, at least according to Aiel custom.

It is interesting to note, however, that just before Rand does so, Avienda equates a beggar to "one friendless and alone", something Rand has increasingly become throughout the series as he uses his friends and tries to push everyone away. So I guess I'm in the camp that believes in metaphorical beggarhood. If RJ is using the beggar portion of the Fisher legend, then I believe it is likely to be in this fashion, Rand pushing everyone away and becoming alone and cold, and, as per the Fisher legend, he needs to be restored to be effective at Tarmon Gaidon. "Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love." (the little prophetic bit at the beggining of A Crown of Swords).

 

Besides, even if Rand were to disguise himself as a beggar in A Memory of Light to do something, he wouldn't really 'be' a beggar. And he hardly seems likely to fall into really being a beggar while he has several countries snug and conquered.

 

Also, I'm not inclined to think that the trip to Far Madding counts as him being a beggar. He didn't go around dressed as a beggar, and he took money with him and stayed in comfort (at least until he was tossed into jail).

[Genesis_XVI]

I thought it was Couladin who asked for accomodation as if he were a chief, then was answered as if he were a begger. Then Avi says about the treatment of one who is friendless and alone?? I might be mistaken.

 

So I'm alone on the thinking that Rand will bend knee huh? Oh well. I stubbornly hold on to it :) I'm not proposing he will swear fealty or actually serve, just be seen to be permissive, before k-pow: he's bound her to his will.

 

-Genesis_XVI

[Old Skool]

Well the begger idea is strangely familiar...

 

anyone else know of a messiah that turns into a beggar?...

 

Dune anyone?

[Luckers]

Yeah Old Skool is right, its a fairly common thread... especially in Religion. People have an innate liking for seeing the mighty layed low, and in general when they are and manage to recover from it, they do a much better job as the mighty.

[Linither]

I don't understand why you think that he will become a beggar but if it were to happen I think it will be after TG. He will then travel to Caemlyn, where as a beggar he will beg for food from the palace. If I remember correctly during holidays and festivals the Queen herself help hand out food to the homeless. Thus providing Rand with a chance to contact Elayne.

[Luckers]

Min had a vision about Rand being a beggar. Thats why its discussed. There are a couple of other inidications too.

 

Personally i think it will be Moridin that experiences this in Rands body. And that that will be the last bit of the last book. Alivia finding Moridin who has been living in squalor and the like, and killing him.

[TheDiceAgain...]

It always comes back to the body switching thing with you doesn't it Luckers? (j/k)

 

Oh, and Perrin saw Rand drressed as a "blind" beggar in one of his early wolf dreams...

[Aviendha]

I reckon we'll see both the Rand/Moridin body swap (I really like this idea - it's solves so many problems!!) as well as Rand as a Beggar (you don't put in two references (Min & Perin) & then not follow through). I have NO idea how all this will happen but I love dreaming up ways that is could!

 

I can't wait until we get our hands on that book (yes, it will happen! RJ WILL get through this thing) and find out how RJ has it coming together :)

[Luckers]

It always comes back to the body switching thing with you doesn't it Luckers? (j/k)

 

 

Lol. Yup, pretty much. How horrible. I'm predictable.

[n00l3y]

arh yes Luckers, u really are getting predictable.

 

Anyway, I agree with the idea that Rand would become a beggar after TG, but I think it would be more of a self-imposed exile. A real beggar but at the same time the figurative "hardened heart, lonely soul", not trying to talk to Elayne, or in fact anyone else (if they're still alive, that is).

[Lilbaz]

2 things, why do people think that the war is going to end in the next few months of Randland? I know RJ crams everything into a few years but couldn't he just skip a few to a few years down the line and the battle is going badly?

 

Anyway back to the beggar. I think that the war will go badly and that Rand will decide to go to Shayol Gull to fight the DO and end it once and for all. Ofcourse being Rand he wont want to risk anyone else so off he goes by himself. Ofcourse he can't "travel" there because it has already been said that the power doesn't work properly there (and thats without the DO free). Traveling as close as he can get then foot patrol, big dirty scar in his side, can't see properly, feeling sick everytime he touches the power and fighting LTT all the way he's in pretty bad shape when he gets there (like a beggar) maybe even Alivia turns up to help him along (fullfilling Mins viewing).

The timeline will give Elayne time to give birth (just as Rand dies) and maybe even Gaidal Cain can turn up.

Who cares, RJ will write a brilliant ending (says he known it for years) but I can't wait.

Everyone sure RJ isn't on a wind up about being sick? All those prophesies ,"to live you must die" keeps playing in my head. Hope it is a wind up as the man writes a terrific story, if not good luck mate, hope you had a good innings.

[Lilbaz]

Hoo hoo, I'm on a roll here. Rand dies, then his soul rises up, but he can remember all of his past lives and is the Dragon. He and the DO battle on another plane of existence and Rand forces him back. Maybe he will even take the form of a Dragon, who knows.

But Jordan blends in a alot of Myths and legends. It wasn't until Merlin was dead that he beat Morgan le Fey and going alone to fight the big bad guy who lives in a mountain, and the only person with you is someone you don't really trust remind you of anything?

[Light Warrior]

I don't buy the body switch thing. :?

 

It just doesn't seem very likely to me at all. I tend to think it might be something that takes place after TG. I don't believe Rand will die, I think "the dragon's blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" will be nothing more than a wound, or the deaths of a lot of Aiel. I think Rand will still have his current body, possibly in even worse shape than it is now... not that being lame in a few physical areas will truly hinder the most powerful channeler on the planet...