[DPR Mafia] Call-Your-Shot Mafia- Points being posted...

[Kivam]

I disagree and I think we have enough to go on here. Pete? Do you want my vote now?

 

And I don't THINK Pete is innocent. I KNOW he is. We never fool each other for long.

 

 

Lily, unless you're the finder (which you aren't), or on a team with the player in question - and if you are a mason with Pete, you should say so - you can never know someone is innocent.

 

How do you know she isn't the finder, unless you are in a mason group with the finder, or you have that role.

 

Its clear from her posts and the way she's approaching this whole Barm theory that she isn't the finder.  If you don't see it . . . well, there's nothing more I can tell you.

 

Maybe she's the town doc, maybe she's the tree stump, whatever . . . but there's no chance at all she's the finder.  I'd be willing to make a side bet on that, if you want - 10 to 1 odds on 200 SG points? (you put up 20 points, I'll put up 200)?

[LilyElizabeth]

Kiv, I'm not revealing, but nice try there. I'll reveal when I'm at L-3, if I need to, but not before. Well, unless I have useful info, of course.  ;)

 

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

I wouldn't expect anything less from Lily, and I can easily tell you Rey's play Kiv. He isn't as experienced as you, or Barm so you decided to use him as cannon fodder to give you something to argue around so you could avoid suspicoun

 

Kivam sacrificed Reyoru?  It was Kivam who advised keeping Reyoru around until Alys came out with her own reveal -- and you were the one who called him out on it:

 

Well Kivam I may have interpreted it wrong, but from what I saw anytime people wanted to lynch Rey you said we should keep him around and anyone he actually vies as being scum equates to being 66% accurate versus 50% accurate. I may be connecting too many dots but that is how I see it.

 

That's a rather strange 180 on the matter.  How coincidental that it came when Kivam backed up Barm's "hunch" that you were scum.

 

Funny, I was just about to make the same exact post.  I'm not sure what Lily's seeing, but Pete's exhibiting the typical signs of a scum caught dead to rights - rapid spinning, outright contradiction to previous theories, desperately reaching for any possible lifeline he can find.

 

I'm fine with voting you right now, but I agree that we should see what Barm has to say before we hammer DS.

 

EDIT WHILE POSTING: Lily just voted for DS.  I'm not going to vote just yet until we get a vote count.  I'm not too worried about the double voter, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

 

Lily puts DS at 8.

 

Kiv I am not contradicting myself, I am stating your plot as I see it spin out.

[Kivam]

Kiv, I'm not revealing, but nice try there. I'll reveal when I'm at L-3, if I need to, but not before. Well, unless I have useful info, of course.  ;)

 

 

Not fishing; I don't need to fish when I have so much food on my plate.  It wasn't a coincidence, btw.  Does that make you rethink your opinion of me?

[Kivam]

Kiv I am not contradicting myself, I am stating your plot as I see it spin out.

 

So . . .

 

Last night, heading into today, trying to drum up a lynch on me, I was scum because (you claimed) I tried to keep Rey from getting lynched

 

Today, trying to save yourself from a lynch, I'm scum who wanted to sacrifice Rey

 

No, not contradicting yourself at all  ::)

 

Come on, Pete . . . put your opinion out there.  Your theory is I'm scum with Rey.  So . . . did I want Rey to get lynched day 1 or not?

[ed2funy]

Not sure, but I think he was thinking you pretended to fight for Rey, but you really put him up for a sacrifice...

 

I don't necessarily believe it..but I think that is what he means.

[Kivam]

Not sure, but I think he was thinking you pretended to fight for Rey, but you really put him up for a sacrifice...

 

I don't necessarily believe it..but I think that is what he means.

 

Yep, I think that's his new claim too . . . but it would be useful to have him nail himself to it.  So come on, Pete, lets go.  No staying nicely vague.  Proclaim your theory and stand by it - did I want Rey dead day 1 or not?

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

Not publicly but that was your plan all along.

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

I can sign it in blood if you want. I have no problem posting my convictions and beliefs. Rey was your sacrificial lamb which you and your scum team could build your innocence around. Kinda of like an epic gambit.

[Kivam]

Not publicly but that was your plan all along.

 

OK.  Good.  That's settled then.

 

Now, after Rey flipped guilty, you said this:

 

Now Kivam's backing of him looks scummy.  

 

Then, after I asked you what you meant by that, you elaborated:

 

Well your instantaneous belief in his role claim, and the backing him with your numbers and trying to overly validate him as more than just a stab in the dark finder, seems scummy to me.

 

Barm also called you on it, and you dug in:

 

Well Kivam I may have interpreted it wrong, but from what I saw anytime people wanted to lynch Rey you said we should keep him around and anyone he actually vies as being scum equates to being 66% accurate versus 50% accurate. I may be connecting too many dots but that is how I see it.

 

Did you believe that at the time, or not?

 

[Kivam]

I can sign it in blood if you want. I have no problem posting my convictions and beliefs. Rey was your sacrificial lamb which you and your scum team could build your innocence around. Kinda of like an epic gambit.

 

Could you explain to me how I (or anyone else) have "built my innocence" around Rey?  Has anyone said "look what I did with Rey, therefore I must be innocent" (or even "therefore I'm likely innocent")?

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

No you haven't, nor would anyone expect you to say that, that is to out in the open for anyone especially you kiv and it would make finding the scum to easy.

 

It isn't so much as your language, but the way you applied your thinking and the direction you are trying to lead the town.

[Kivam]

No you haven't, nor would anyone expect you to say that, that is to out in the open for anyone especially you kiv and it would make finding the scum to easy.

 

It isn't so much as your language, but the way you applied your thinking and the direction you are trying to lead the town.

 

Which is . . . where, exactly?  Testing Barm by lynching you?  How exactly is that disastrous at this point in the game?

 

And again, you were pretty vehement in claiming I fought to save Rey.

 

Now, you're just as vehement in claiming I wanted Rey to die.  I'll ask again - were you telling the truth when you said you believed I was fighting to keep Rey alive, or were you lying?  It's a simple enough question, Pete . . . why not answer it?

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

I believe you wanted Rey dead from the start. You wanted to make him a scapegoat for the mafia to hide behind.

[Kivam]

I believe you wanted Rey dead from the start. You wanted to make him a scapegoat for the mafia to hide behind.

 

Again, not my question.  We've already nailed down what you're now claiming.

 

Did you, at the time you made those earlier posts I quoted, actually believe I wanted Rey alive?  Or were you lying?

 

Not hard to answer, yet you keep refusing to.  Why is that, Dragonscum?

[ed2funy]

lol...Dragonscum....

 

*gets popcorn and watches*

Really...I am not sure what to make of this...

[LilyElizabeth]

Kiv, you are trying too hard here. How many times, as part of a mafia team, have you had to change plans in mid-stream? I've been playing less than a year, and I've certainly had it happen numerous times. Why is it so hard to believe that both could be true? That Pete believes that you tried to save your teammate at first, then sacrificed him for the good of the team for whatever reason? Either things weren't going according to plan or you had an inspiration? Makes perfect sense to me. I've done it myself.

 

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

I believe you wanted Rey dead from the start. You wanted to make him a scapegoat for the mafia to hide behind.

 

Again, not my question.  We've already nailed down what you're now claiming.

 

Did you, at the time you made those earlier posts I quoted, actually believe I wanted Rey alive?  Or were you lying?

 

Not hard to answer, yet you keep refusing to.  Why is that, Dragonscum?

 

as a lawyer you know things are never as black and white as you are trying to make them there are shades of gray. I believe you wanted to keep him alive longe then you did but you always wanted him dead to set your plans into motion.

 

Why kiv have you decide. To start going after me after I told everyone I was sending the game into night? Why did you choose to ignore my other posts directed at you? Are you setting me up for a nk, that way you can say the scum is setting you up to be lynched? Or are you going guns blazin now that you know your scum partner barm doesn't have to claim anything now that we are goin into night?

[Kivam]

Kiv, you are trying too hard here. How many times, as part of a mafia team, have you had to change plans in mid-stream? I've been playing less than a year, and I've certainly had it happen numerous times. Why is it so hard to believe that both could be true? That Pete believes that you tried to save your teammate at first, then sacrificed him for the good of the team for whatever reason? Either things weren't going according to plan or you had an inspiration? Makes perfect sense to me. I've done it myself.

 

Lily, that would be a valid explanation if he had taken those positions during day 1 (i.e. midway through Day 1 accused me of trying to save Rey, then said "you're switching tactics and busing him" later in the day - or that night).  

 

That's not what Pete did.

 

He claimed I tried to save Rey after the day was over.  Everything to do with my interactions with Rey was already complete by the time he accused me of trying to save him.  Nothing I did after Pete's initial accusation could conceivably be "me changing the plan" - because Rey was already dead by that point.

 

Which is the reason Pete is trying soooo hard not to answer my question - the follow up is obvious: What did I do in between your posts at 10:27pm on February 3rd and your posts tonight that changed your opinion.

 

And the problem (for Pete) is that question is unanswerable.  Nothing I did today could possibly shed new light on whether I wanted Rey dead Day 1 - because not only was Rey already dead, but the only time he's come up at all is when Pete's brought him up.  There's nothing Pete can point to to say "Yes, on the 3rd I believed you were fighting for Rey, but then you did XYZ and that showed you really were sacrificing him".

 

And then, here's the secondary problem with that explanation (i.e. that Pete is saying I changed plans midstream) - that's expressly not what Pete is saying:

 

I believe you wanted Rey dead from the start. You wanted to make him a scapegoat for the mafia to hide behind.

 

Note the bolded.  Not "you started out trying to save him, then switched plans" - "you wanted him dead from the start."

 

Sorry, Lily - he's openly contradicting himself.  You may have to consider that your instinct on Pete is wrong this game.

[Lavinya]

I don't know if I believe Kivam is innocent, but I can't fault his logic regarding DS. I don't know if it makes him scum though, and I still don't think it makes Barm's actions any less suspicious. If DS is who he says he is, there will be no lynch and night will come. And if he isn't...well we may have our 3rd mafioso down in three days. It's a heady prospect.

 

[glow=red,2,300]Dragonsworn[/glow]

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

Your vote doent coun lavinya I sent in the rollback already as soon as dpr is on then we are in night

[ed2funy]

I already had my vote...but I think I can understand him. Doesn't make him innocent...but I have changed how I personally looked at things even after the fact.

He is suspicious for not answering...but if it is just the case of changing what he thought....Kivam then looks suspicious.

 

But then, Kivs looks innocent, because he could really be seeing scum actions....

 

Basically...I am still confused. :P

[Kivam]

I believe you wanted Rey dead from the start. You wanted to make him a scapegoat for the mafia to hide behind.

 

Again, not my question.  We've already nailed down what you're now claiming.

 

Did you, at the time you made those earlier posts I quoted, actually believe I wanted Rey alive?  Or were you lying?

 

Not hard to answer, yet you keep refusing to.  Why is that, Dragonscum?

 

as a lawyer you know things are never as black and white as you are trying to make them there are shades of gray. I believe you wanted to keep him alive longe then you did but you always wanted him dead to set your plans into motion.

 

And yet you didn't seem to consider that a possibility when you were first accusing me of fighting for him.  So . . . what exactly was it, in the interim, that "tipped you off" to my supposed plan?  Anything other than "I need to argue that Kiv is scum, so I have to say so"?

 

Why kiv have you decide. To start going after me after I told everyone I was sending the game into night?

 

I'll believe you can do that when DPR sends the game to night.  Until then, I want you lynched.  And if we do go to night, I want you lynched tomorrow.  Not that hard to figure out.

Why did you choose to ignore my other posts directed at you?

 

I have no idea which posts you're talking about.

 

Are you setting me up for a nk, that way you can say the scum is setting you up to be lynched? Or are you going guns blazin now that you know your scum partner barm doesn't have to claim anything now that we are goin into night?

 

Now that's pure random babbling.  First of all, you have 8 lynch votes on you.  Even if we go to night, you're the likely lynch tomorrow.  If you're innocent and scum kills you, they're doing us a favor, since we won't waste a lynch on a townie.

 

More, you seem to think that scum would have a reason to desperately want you dead.  But if you are what you claim to be - an innocent governor - then by going to night you've used up your abilities and become a roleless townie.  Yet in your hypothesis two members (me and Barm) of a scum team that already has 2 members down (Rey and Tynaal) are going for your throat at risk to themselves.  Does that make any sense at all?

 

Oh, and on the "scum partner Barm" theory . . . I've already said that if Barm doesn't deny being the finder and you flip innocent, he'll be my next lynch target.  If you're innocent, as you claim, that means that either Barm will deny being the finder (since the finder obviously would not be gunning for a townie) or he'll get lynched (since you'll flip innocent).  So, again - your theory is that I'm scum who's looking to be down 3 teammates by day 3?  In the words of the immortal Ace Ventura - aaaaallrighty then  :D

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

::) @ kiv, how are you going to explain away your semi rolefishing with Lily?

 

So . . . what exactly was it, in the interim, that "tipped you off" to my supposed plan?  Anything other than "I need to argue that Kiv is scum, so I have to say so"?

 

I don't have to argue with anyone. I am actually a little insulted.

[Kivam]

::) @ kiv, how are you going to explain away your semi rolefishing with Lily?

 

Don't need to, because there was no rolefishing.  Seriously, Don Pete, aren't you worried you'll hyperextend something reaching that far?

 

So . . . what exactly was it, in the interim, that "tipped you off" to my supposed plan?  Anything other than "I need to argue that Kiv is scum, so I have to say so"?

 

I don't have to argue with anyone. I am actually a little insulted.

 

In other words, the answer to "what changed your mind" is "nothing"