Rand and The Black Tower

[Owayn The Traveller]

???

Is anyone else to a slight bit miffed how Rand could establish an organisation and then not really be that concerned with it afterwards.

Its like he shows up gets pissed off with Taim, watches Taim blungeon someone with the power so hard the poor soul is knocked out and no healing is offered to the guy. Okay that would make be stop and think that 'mmmm maybe Taim isn't suited for leading and training new and impressable channellers'. The ecessive use of force and the apparent lack of discipline doesnt inspire confidence. Lack of discipline in a fighting unit isnt ideal either.

Next time he shows up he hands out badges to them and Taim isn't exactly impressed and oh ya Taim is now the M'Hael (spelt correctly?). Kinda looks like he's trying to usurp someones already pretty much non exsitent authority. He's attacked on two separate occasions, in two locations by rogue ashaman. Finally Logain is telling him thats not all is well.

I know Rand is busy and all that but his handling of The Black Tower is pretty reckless and stupid. What does anyone else think? How can Rand be so blind to the problem there when in other places he is quite astute?

[Impressive Bosom]

???

Is anyone else to a slight bit miffed how Rand could establish an organisation and then not really be that concerned with it afterwards.

Its like he shows up gets pissed off with Taim, watches Taim blungeon someone with the power so hard the poor soul is knocked out and no healing is offered to the guy. Okay that would make be stop and think that 'mmmm maybe Taim isn't suited for leading and training new and impressable channellers'. The ecessive use of force and the apparent lack of discipline doesnt inspire confidence. Lack of discipline in a fighting unit isnt ideal either.

Next time he shows up he hands out badges to them and Taim isn't exactly impressed and oh ya Taim is now the M'Hael (spelt correctly?). Kinda looks like he's trying to usurp someones already pretty much non exsitent authority. He's attacked on two separate occasions, in two locations by rogue ashaman. Finally Logain is telling him thats not all is well.

I know Rand is busy and all that but his handling of The Black Tower is pretty reckless and stupid. What does anyone else think? How can Rand be so blind to the problem there when in other places he is quite astute?

 

I've personally found it rather bizarre that so little attention has been paid by him to this group that he founded, knows he will desperately need in the final battle and has every reason to believe there are problems with.

 

I get that things like cleansing Saidin were a bigger priority, but he DOES have Travelling and random appearances there every couple of days would have gone a long way towards keeping members loyal to him rather than 'The Ma'Hael' and would have kept Taim much more on his toes at the very least.

 

I get crazy busy at work, but I still manage to look in here at least 2-3 times a day (as the internet requires about as much effort as Travelling would for someone like Rand)... and this site is a far lower priority to me than the Black Tower is to him. At least we know we have that little resolution to look forward to in ToM.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I couldn't agree more with you there. Travelling makes it so handy. It just beggars me beyond belief how he could let it go so far. It actually kinda annoys me now when I'm reading it.

[Saguin Venart]

He trusts Taim to mold the Asha'man into weapons, Hes got nations to conquer.

[Owayn The Traveller]

He first appears at the tower after setting it up and one of the black coats back talks to Rand and Taim clonks him on the head and doesnt bother with the blackcoat after that. First sigh of no discpline and excessively harsh teaching methods. Both of these would contribute to this weapon turning or breaking on you and it has turned and broken. Assasination attepmts and deserters are the results of this. Blackcoats are potentially to dangerous to be this reckless with their training and hello dreadlords surely Rand must of considered this.

I know he needed weapons but since they tried to kill him twice he should of sorted out the cause of the problem aswell as the effect. Rand is being reckless and more so than he is in other areas. I just don't understand it.

[OptimusPrime]

Why does nobody remember the conversation between Rand Logain and Taim?

 

Bashere says "People are after the Seals again."

 

Logain says "Taim is bad."

 

Rand says "If your enemy presents two targets..." leaving it open

 

and Bashere says "...strike a third."

 

and so Rand tries dealing with the Seanchan. Taim and the attempts on the Seals are targets the Shadow EXPECT Rand to aim at, and thats exactly why he wont do anything yet.

[Impressive Bosom]

Why does nobody remember the conversation between Rand Logain and Taim?

 

Bashere says "People are after the Seals again."

 

Logain says "Taim is bad."

 

Rand says "If your enemy presents two targets..." leaving it open

 

and Bashere says "...strike a third."

 

and so Rand tries dealing with the Seanchan. Taim and the attempts on the Seals are targets the Shadow EXPECT Rand to aim at, and thats exactly why he wont do anything yet.

 

So he is basically acknowledging that he believes/suspects Taim is his enemy, the man he has left in charge of shaping and controlling the most powerful and useful weapon(s) in his arsenal for the Final Battle and his general attitude towards the situation is 'meh'?

[OptimusPrime]

No, Im saying its "Well Taim is EXPECTING me to come so he probably has an ambush or ten planned, I could take any Ashaman and probably have them turn against me, plus if I channel I will become sick and theyll see, basically I'll be walking into a room of men with guns aimed at my genitals, saying "IM NOT LOOKING BOYS, SHOOT NOW." "

[Manel Rochaid]

I don't know how popular this will be, but has anyone ever considered whether Rand is, now quite afraid, but certainly worried about confronting Taim? We see many times Lews Therin is desperate to kill him, or at least get very far away. It just seems like Rand is putting it off, hoping it'll somehow all work itself out.

 

One thing I've wondered about too, if the BT is getting sorted in the next book, what will make Rand sit up and take notice? Logain doesn't seem able to persuade him, so what will? Taim publically renouncing the Dragon? Proof Taim is a Darkfriend?

[Majsju]

 

One thing I've wondered about too, if the BT is getting sorted in the next book, what will make Rand sit up and take notice? Logain doesn't seem able to persuade him, so what will? Taim publically renouncing the Dragon? Proof Taim is a Darkfriend?

 

Who says Rand must be involved in sorting the BT out? It could be something as simple as Rand telling Logain to go there and do something, Logain decides he wants some serious back-up if he is to go anywhere near Taim (He hinted in KOD that relations between the two are not exactly the best), and once Logain and his posse arrives at the BT, they catch Taim doing something naughty, and then it is on.

 

[Myyrth]

I love RJ but this is an example of something that always infuriated me about the story.  He spent so many books dealing with Mat and Perrin, admittedly important characters but left such a hugely interesting part of tale out almost completely.  At this point I literally have no idea whats going on at the BT, no idea if the construction on their facility has been progressing, what if anything they have learned or discovered.  For all I know when they get back to the BT it's going to be a happily bustling fortress of darkfriends and dreadlords.

 

Same with his lack of focus on Rand.  I feel like the Asha'man need to be addressed in a major way in the next book.

[OptimusPrime]

I love RJ but this is an example of something that always infuriated me about the story.  He spent so many books dealing with Mat and Perrin, admittedly important characters but left such a hugely interesting part of tale out almost completely.  At this point I literally have no idea whats going on at the BT, no idea if the construction on their facility has been progressing, what if anything they have they learned or discovered.  For all I know when they get back to the BT it's going to be a happily bustling fortress of darkfriends and dreadlords.

 

Same with his lack of focus on Rand.  I feel like the Asha'man need to be addressed in a major way in the next book.

 

I agree 100%. When I reread now I am waiting for the amnesty. Rands PoV is fantastic throughout all of that, the fact that you see him push aside the wishes of Bashere and his nine thousand horsemen so he can have one man serve him was a massive thing.

 

You know what? I reckon the Borderlander army might end up fighting the Black Tower.

[Manel Rochaid]

I think Rand will have to have something to do with the BT, else he'll just be in the same position, no authority over the Asha'man, no respect, though with Logain at least there's a certain measure of trust. Logains shown restraint though so far, so can be relied upon to wait for Rand to move against Taim

[eric84]

Completely agree that there was a lost of focus on some important things, especially the BT.  If I recall correctly, Logain bonded 2 AS right?  Rand "loans" him callandor and he takes his 2 AS to help clean out the riff raff from the BT, and is then placed in charge of it. 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Can't see Rand lending callandor. Definitly don't think he is afraid of Taim, come on Ishy twice was it, Aginor, Asmodean, Sammaul, that other chap and the rogue blackcoats. I don't think he is afraid.

 

Also Sammaul was expecting him and have plenty of ambushes waiting. I just think Rand screwed up with Taim.

 

Also can see Rand having nothing to do with Black Tower clean up. Does anyone think Taim might win that one agaisnt Logain. Taim I reckon has more understanding of the power, might have some limited forsaken training (I stress limited going Alvarin gifts of training) and hey he might even have Rands old fat man angreal. What ever happened to that? What if logain lost?

 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Oh ya Rand also has some very powerful angreal in his wardrobe. They might tipp the scales in Al'Thors way

[mhael784]

Rand could defeat Taim because there are supposedly three male sa'angreal equal to or greater then Callandor's power and if Rand links with a woman (Nynaeve) again then he can wipe Taim's sorry face off the world of channelers and darkfiends.

[Samuel]

I love how through the first few books with Asha'man, we knew a lot about the Black Tower and saw it growing and then just as it was getting really big and formidable...bam. Extremely limited knowledge of the Black Tower. We saw hardly anything, all we get is rumour and some sparse POV's from Logain's female Warders. I really appreciated that and thought it was clever storytelling, very suggestive, very forboding.

 

Kudos to OptimusPrime's post, I completely agree.

 

When the Black Tower plotline is thrust in the open again in the next book (I assume it will be TOM...the title suggests and it and I can't see something like this being shoved in the very last book) I think we will all be shocked by what happens. I expect a big twist will occur. I'm still not buying Taim being a stock Darkfriend/Dreadlord, I think it's too obvious and Robert Jordan didn't write obvious plotlines. Something unexpected will happen and I for one look forward to it!

[OptimusPrime]

Rand isnt necessarily scared, he just doesnt have a solution. If he goes in with Callandor he will likely kill people that need to be alive. If he goes in at all its going to be a big fight and he cant handle that. If he sends people in, he has the chance of some of those people being enemies and that would mean Taim is aware that Rand is aware there is a problem.

 

Rand knows theres a problem, but Taim doesnt know Rand knows. Get it? The Choeden Kal itself would not solve the problem without leaving Rand as the only male channeler once more, it would show the Forsaken where he was again, and would most likely be another big point people would put down to his insane paranoia.

 

No solution has presented itself, and hes hardly had time to think about it

[Owayn The Traveller]

I get that to solve the problem now it will require a lot of effect and time to do it to the best possible conclusion but he had chances to nip it in the butt earlier. Its a mess now and it does look like it will be difficult to clear it to say the least.

 

I do agree with you Samuel there is defo a twist or something more than meets the eye.

[OptimusPrime]

I cant shake off a gut feeling that Taim is Moridin. If its true it will be a massive waste of a character

[Owayn The Traveller]

Do you mean Moridin using a mask of mirrors or that its Ishy in Taims body. There was some discussion that I think debunked that. But what about Moridin body being the mask of mirrors and Taim being the real body. Although when Rand sees the face its not Taim, the one when he channels.

Although ,the same use of colour scheme and Taims rescue and Ishys death aren't they close and the whole black towers stuff, all lead to have a feeling about it.

Its pretty tame evidence. Do you have stronger hints that lead you to your gut feeling?

[Owayn The Traveller]

Do you mean Moridin using a mask of mirrors or that its Ishy in Taims body. There was some discussion that I think debunked that. But what about Moridin body being the mask of mirrors and Taim being the real body. Although when Rand sees the face its not Taim, the one when he channels.

Although ,the same use of colour scheme and Taims rescue and Ishys death aren't they close and the whole black towers stuff, all lead to have a feeling about it.

Its pretty tame evidence. Do you have stronger hints that lead you to your gut feeling?

[Impressive Bosom]

No, Im saying its "Well Taim is EXPECTING me to come so he probably has an ambush or ten planned, I could take any Ashaman and probably have them turn against me, plus if I channel I will become sick and theyll see, basically I'll be walking into a room of men with guns aimed at my genitals, saying "IM NOT LOOKING BOYS, SHOOT NOW." "

 

Sorry, my friend, but I don't see Rand cowering away from dealing with Taim if he believes that there is that real of a threat to what may well be his most critical force in the Final Battle. That's never been in his nature. Moreover, we see little to any plotting, discussion, speculation or even concern over what might be going on in the Black Tower at all. At the very least I expected him to make an appearance after cleansing Saidin.

 

Had Rand actually been active in the Black Tower's development, like say peeking in even once a week, things may not have gotten so bad... and his detachment and lack of involvement even now seems out of place with regards to what we know of him. Its not just Rand hiding from an expected ambush, believe me.

[Impressive Bosom]

I cant shake off a gut feeling that Taim is Moridin. If its true it will be a massive waste of a character

The only possible Forsaken that Taim could possibly be is Damandred... and supposedly, we all know that he's not (supposedly). I'll be very upset if he turns out to be Moridin for more than one reason.