A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[rane008]

I'm sure that note has been made of this, but I'd like to reiterate that A LOT is made in the writings about how AS get around the 1st oath through semantics and wordplay.  This is daily skirting of the Oath Rod by the majority of AS.  Thus, I'd think that the "logical" solution for beating the Rod is one that we will end up seeing in TOM or AMOL.

[dholm]

Then she would die of suffocation, like we almost saw Meidani die, when two Oaths collided in her.

I think you mean Zerah Dacan -- the White sister who was the first of the ferrets to be uncovered by the Black Ajah hunters. I'm pretty sure Meidani hasn't been caught in an Oath conflict.

[yoniy0]

I think you mean Zerah Dacan

Yes, yes. You got me. I had a feeling I should reread that scene before posting. Next time I'm going with my gut :).

[dholm]

I probably wouldn't have known to correct you if that's not exactly where I am in my own reread. ;) I thought it was Meidani too.

[saidarisnowtainted]

Then she would die of suffocation, like we almost saw Meidani die, when two Oaths collided in her.

I think you mean Zerah Dacan -- the White sister who was the first of the ferrets to be uncovered by the Black Ajah hunters. I'm pretty sure Meidani hasn't been caught in an Oath conflict.

 

But this would be different IMO because she would swear on the TAR rod in anticipation of the next oaths.  that's different (i think) than what happened when the BA sister was caught and the oaths conflicted.

 

Basically, would it be possible for Messy to swear in TAR on a rod in such a manner that the oaths she made in the real world would not be binding? (e.g. The next time i pick up an oath rod, the words that i speak will mean the opposite to me" or something?)

 

thoughts?

[Sharaman]

Nice idea - may work.

Might also mean that she collapses choking (AFAIK none of the AS did at the WT reswearing ball.

 

[yoniy0]

If she convinced herself the words actually meant the opposite, then yes, that would probably work. Only I think for that to happen she has to believe the people she's speaking with also understand what she's saying the other way around, and that's more tricky.

 

One other little thing - Zerah Dacan is definitely not Black, just one of the 'ferrets' sent by the rebel AS.

[Swithin]

But this would be different IMO because she would swear on the TAR rod in anticipation of the next oaths.  that's different (i think) than what happened when the BA sister was caught and the oaths conflicted.

 

Basically, would it be possible for Messy to swear in TAR on a rod in such a manner that the oaths she made in the real world would not be binding? (e.g. The next time i pick up an oath rod, the words that i speak will mean the opposite to me" or something?)

 

thoughts?

 

It's a nifty idea, and it could work, but we're dealing with very precise semantics. The Oath Rod works off one thing only: the perceived meaning of the words as spoken and understood by their own speaker. After that, it's like Compulsion, the mind polices itself.

[edit: I should be more clear, this is my assumption on how the Oath Rod works from my reading. Maybe I'm wrong and someone can correct me.]

 

I think you'd have to rephrase your premise slightly, from "the words I speak will mean the opposite to me", which is interpretive after having spoken the oath, to one in which the speaker is attempting to swear some actual oath, but is left with only one way to express it verbally, which happens to coincide with what is traditionally said. I can't come up with an elegant way to put it, but "I swear that the next time I swear upon an oath rod, my mind will restructure its entire conception of language so that the phrase 'I can lie all I want' is legitimately expressed as 'I shall not lie'," or something like that. So long as the speaker is still able to understand "I shall not lie" to mean that there won't be lying, I think the oath would go off as normal.

 

This could be accomplished without a second Oath Rod, btw, through Compulsion or some AoL trick on learning foreign languages or whatever.

 

[edit: btw, the absolute worst torture I can think of is to force someone to an an oath that says "I will never attempt to communicate to another person, or for the purpose of removing this oath, ever again." Ouch.]

[Sharaman]

How about " No oath I swear on another oath rod will be valid"? That should cover all eventualities.

 

[yoniy0]

How about " No oath I swear on another oath rod will be valid"? That should cover all eventualities.

Well, no, that's just what we talked about before. As long as she perceives the next Oath as it's usually meant, the OR will bind her to it, while the former Oath would stand in contradiction to that happening, at which point she'll die (or soon thereafter, anyway).

[Sharaman]

Hmm RAFO I guess but this is a nice line of speculation - preemptive use of TaR.

 

[mb]

1 Are you Mesaana?

2 Are you a Forsaken?

3 Do you serve the Dark One?

4 Have you ever been to Shayol Ghul?

5 Were you alive before the Trolloc Wars?

6 Did you live in the Age of Legends?

7 Are you impersonating an Aes Sedai?

8 Are you supporting the Shadow during the Last Battle?

9 Did you ever meet Lanfear?

10 Do you remember a time before Tar Valon was built/before Dragonmount was around/before Callandor was placed in the Stone of Tear/when the Aiel were pacifist?

Shayol Ghul, there could be a chance that even Light-sided sisters been there; and discover after the visit (or know at the time) that the place was/is Shayol Ghul.

Lanfear, even Light-sided sisters could have meet her; and discover after the encounter (or know at the time) that the person was/is Lanfear.

Last Battle, a number of sisters may choose to join the Shadow before then.  Serve the Dark One, a number of sisters might have joined before the question was asked.

 

impersonating, Mesaana may believe that she is not; and other sisters may believe that they are.

remember, Mesaana may believe that she does not; and other sisters may believe that they do.

 

Almost any question could be evaded if the speaker believes in something other than the truth.

 

 

The terangreal that can unmask Illusion, that would be the best chance to reveal Mesaana.

Or perhaps dosing each of the sisters with enough forkroot so that they cannot escape.

 

[yoniy0]

I don't know why you bother arguing with the list when number 1 is clearly good enough. I'd go with number 3, just to catch other paraiahs, but whatever.

 

You're right about the MoM, though. And you don't even need any tar'angreal. Egwene knows where the weaves would be, and what they would be. She could just cut them.

[saidarisnowtainted]

Nice idea - may work.

Might also mean that she collapses choking (AFAIK none of the AS did at the WT reswearing ball.

 

 

why would she die choking?  Under these circumstances she wouldnt be swearing to something that directly contradicted a prior standing oath and then told to do the very thing that the oaths conflict.

 

[Sharaman]

Nice idea - may work.

Might also mean that she collapses choking (AFAIK none of the AS did at the WT reswearing ball.

 

 

why would she die choking?  Under these circumstances she wouldnt be swearing to something that directly contradicted a prior standing oath and then told to do the very thing that the oaths conflict.

 

 

If it works, it works.

If it doesn't work, there's going to be a conflict of oaths.

 

[dholm]

Intention might be one way to wriggle out of it, if she can somehow convince herself the Oaths mean something else than what the others hear.

 

But that's iffy. How would you go about doing that?  Whisper something else in the middle of swearing? "I will speak no word..." *fakecough* "...tomorrow..." *clears throat* "... that is not true"? That's silly.

 

Though that's an interesting thing to think about. What happens if you swear something that has a time-limit? Would the Oath just... stop having an effect? Would it still contribute to an early death? Hmn.

[yoniy0]

My guess is yes. It would still shorten your life. The reason I think so is because for most AS, the Oaths don't really do anything after the first couple of months. If you would hypnotize them and make them remove the Oaths then forget they did, their life won't change (except that it would eventually turn out to be longer). If you accept my premise, then the Oaths shorten your life without playing an active role. That it, it's not that every time you try to do something and are interrupted by one of the Oaths that you lose time, but gradually over your whole life. Hence, an Oath made, however ineffective (like, if you swore never to utter a word if your heart isn't beating), would still shorten your life.

[gahngpey]

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

He doesn't come out and say it, but it does seem Brandon's pointing us away from the 'I'm not a Darkfriend, I be CHOSEN' explanation of how Mesaana overcame the Oaths.

 

So that's what this thread is for--ideas on how one might overcome the oaths. Feel free to go as wild outside the box as you want.

 

Here are my thoughts. The first issue is this--binders were used with great effectiveness during the Age of Legends, and Semirhage and Balthemel both feared being bound, so that combined with that Brandon's told us to start thinking about it suggests to me that its not as simple as Mesaana weaving around her an inverted anti-Oath weave or something.

 

 

Full disclosure: I'm just now reading this thread and don't have the patience to read through 14 pages (at least for now), so forgive me if this has been brought up before.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the inverted anti-Oath weave, as it could be a way around binders that safeguards were created against in the AOL of which Randlanders are simply unaware.  It certainly among the simplist explanations, and using a proxy to replace at will kind of ruins the fun of creating alternative personas, and I for one would be pretty darn disappointed at such an easy cop-out.

[gahngpey]

*simplest.  Ugh.

[ed2funy]

We really saw nothing of the reswearing, but I am sure they had everyone do it.

 

If they see the AS she is masquerading as a few days later, they will question her and make her reswear.

 

The Tower is known to keep track of things. I am sure that is so hard.

 

the assumption being that everyone re took them the same way that Egwene took them.

 

With Egwene and the Hall watching them. I am pretty sure they made sure no one mess them up!

 

That is all. :D

[Bobbun]

If we're looking for a weakness in the Oath Rod, rather than a weakness in the Oaths, then one glaring weakness stands out:  No one but the person swearing on the rod can discern whether the rod had any effect as far as we know.  In every case where we've seen it used, the person swearing felt a tightening or pressing down on the skin, but there's no mention of anyone else perceiving anything at all.  This weakness suggests the possibility of defeating the Oath Rod by holding it and swearing, but evading the effects.  I suggested earlier the possibility that, much like the ring-shaped dream ter'angreal, skin contact might be required for the Oath Rod to work (otherwise, why do people hold it?).  An inverted weave of air in the hand that allowed one to hold the Oath Rod without touching it might allow one to swear to no effect without anyone being the wiser.

 

Is this a lame solution?  Yes!  But no more so than another widely popular solution, and it has the advantage that Mesaana can know in advance if it will work or not, something that might not be a sure thing with simply stating "I am not a Darkfriend."  If I were in her position, I would at least want to practice before depending on word trickery to be sure.  Mesaana would know if the air trick worked, because in the Age of Legends they would have been knowledgeable enough both to detect it and guard against it as part of their usual procedure for binding criminals.

[mb]

The Oath Rod I think has no 'flaw'; it does what it was made to do (ie make oaths binding).

Like I posted earlier, the only way to evade the Oaths I think is through belief.

Mesaana saying 'I am not a Darkfriend'; she was able to say that because she believed the statement, I doubt because of any other reason.

 

[deathgate]

An inverted weave of air in the hand that allowed one to hold the Oath Rod without touching it might allow one to swear to no effect without anyone being the wiser.

 

Is this a lame solution?  Yes! 

 

OK, even lamer would be to get yourself stilled, swear on the rod (act like it tingles) then get healed!

[ed2funy]

The Oath Rod I think has no 'flaw'; it does what it was made to do (ie make oaths binding).

Like I posted earlier, the only way to evade the Oaths I think is through belief.

Mesaana saying 'I am not a Darkfriend'; she was able to say that because she believed the statement, I doubt because of any other reason.

 

 

We are trying to find more than Mesanna getting around that one.

We are trying to find a way to get around the Rod, not the Oath.

[Casabamelon]

The Oath Rod I think has no 'flaw'; it does what it was made to do (ie make oaths binding).

Like I posted earlier, the only way to evade the Oaths I think is through belief.

Mesaana saying 'I am not a Darkfriend'; she was able to say that because she believed the statement, I doubt because of any other reason.

 

 

We are trying to find more than Mesanna getting around that one.

We are trying to find a way to get around the Rod, not the Oath.

 

Agreed. There are a lot of people who dismiss the "Rod" part of BS's quote (which is perfectly OK). However, if she can defeat the ROD, then she can say "I am not Messana" and not worry about any negative repercussions.