How Will Rand Defeat the Dark One? (Full Spoilers)

[storywriter100]

At the end of TGS Rand turns the power of the cheodan kal *massive spelling fail* against itself, and destroys it. Prehaps he will be faced with a choice between siding with the Dark One or saving the World. He will start to choose the Drak One, and then will seize the TP and turn it against the Dark One, effectively putting the DO in a prison of himself, which would exist outside of the pattern.

 

Vaguely possible, prehaps???

[Dreamwalker]

 

his (Dragon Reborn) blood shall give us the Light

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation.

* the Royal House of Andor held(s) the key to winning the Last Battle.

 

  BLOOD. Nowhere is said death. Rand would be alive on Shayol Ghul and in the Pit of Doom, after... B. Sanderson knows what will happen after...

  Other thing, BLOOD also mean descendants. Two children from Elayne* (or the four of Aviendha). They could be born "on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" because Elayne and Aviendha will be with Rand in the LB. (Nothing is known about Aviendha's odd babies) but Elayne will give birth after approximately 6 months.

  ... Rand is... Tai'shar Andor...* ("true blood" of Andor).

 

If you would live, you must die.

 

  I think that Rand must not "would" (to...) "live". Accept that he should die or... NO life, NO "man's salvation". This means, he must be ready to sacrifice himself, else he'll sacrifice his children. His task should be more important than life - to do a better job than Therin - to seal the Bore using saidin and saidar. If i recall properly Therin has fought against the Shadow's forces and not directly with the DO. No one could fight directly with the counterpart (weaker) of the Creator. No one should destroy DO, not even the DO plans to destroy or to fight the Creator. Contain, seal... seem to be meant for the "yin" part.

 

 

 

Where does "He who is dead yet lives" come into this? And Rand with another face?

 

My theory on that: http://telaranrhiod-awheeloftimeblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/body-swap.html

[Sir Drake]

The Dark One means to stop the Wheel... there would be no more rebirth (no Wheel to spin them out again), and hence no more birth.  The Dark One's world would soon be... a desloate, lifeless remnant wherein the Dark One can spend eternity reveling in his victory.  Sounds boring to us, sure, but the Dark One's motivations are decidedly not antrhopic.

Indeed they are not.. but the DO can transmigrate souls, grabbing them as they die and giving them bodies (from where..?) so he could have an endless supply of sentient beings to play with, or at least a constantly renewed supply.

Ah, I'd neglected to consider that.  I'm not sure if the Dark One can do this for anyone*, but he can certainly do it for Darkfriends.  And this may be what the Chosen are counting on (save for Moridin) in the new world order.

 

 

In the conventional setup, the Dark One cannot touch the Pattern 'cause he's outside of it:

Dark One [Pattern]world, etc.[/Pattern]

 

If he also has a little prison house, it might look like this:

[other stuff] [prison]Dark One[/prison] [Pattern]world, etc.[/Pattern]

 

My loaded question goes like ths: Does that "other stuff" represent anything?  If so, what the heck is it?  If not, then why does the Dark One have a prison to keep him from touching it?

The 'other stuff' may be those parallel worlds Rand's party encountered when using the Portal Stones.

An argument against that: The Pattern is normally unaffected by things outside the Pattern.  But the parallel worlds can directly affect those who travel through them, and thus (when the travelers return) the "normal" world.

 

An argument for: Both Lanfear and Ishamael chose this as a place to mess with Rand's head.  The place could certainly be interpreted as showing evidence of the Dark One's touch.

 

The DO was sealed away in prison when the Creator made the Pattern, so clearly he can penetrate the Pattern if he is free.

"Clearly" he can penetrate the Pattern if he is free.  Sure-- but I'm nitpicking over what "free" means.  The statement could still be true if the Pattern is his only prison.

 

I understand that the description ("Imprisoned outside the Pattern) makes us imagine some prison "around" the Dark One; and what I am imagining would have been better described as "Locked out of the Pattern".

 

But...

 

We have to consider what it means to be outside of the Pattern.  The Pattern is "the whole of existence and reality."  Being outside of that is an apparent contradiction, made possible (I assume) by the actions of the Creator and the nature of the Dark One.  If I'm correct, and nothing else can exist outside the Pattern, then a separate prison is not only unnecessary, it is inconsistent.

 

From the Big White Book:

They had discovered a thin place in the Pattern that appeared to cover an undivided source of the One Power...

they had only to bore a small hole in the Pattern to tap it....

It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outisde of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation.

The emanations... were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison.

 

The second boldfaced section might imply a separate prison.  The first implies none.  I think the first is less ambiguous.

 

 

But let's assume I'm wrong because it happend before.  Once.  Or fifty times.

 

If the Dark One is locked outside of the Pattern and in a prison, then the Bore was drilled through two different things (the Pattern and the Prison) (It's still only one Bore, just like a hole that goes through two layers of drywall is only one hole in the wall).

 

Then LTT and his band of merry men might not have realized this, or thought to take advantage of it.  And it might provide a solution to Rand: He needs to seal the Dark One's prison separately and first.  The seal might be tainted and temporary, but that's okay; now that the Dark One is (at least for the moment) sealed away, Rand can set about repairing the Pattern with something that is free of taint. 

 

Cheers,

Jason

 

 

*Otherwise, it'd be a good strategy to nab as many souls as possible, particularly the likes of Rand Therin Telamon, and cripple their effectiveness by putting them into captive/enslaved bodies in the Blight.  Alternatively, the likes of Rand might be outside of his reach whereas the effort/resources required render the strategy ineffective for ordinary souls.

 

 

[mossman87]

The Wheel is made of the True Source, the only thing separating the DO from this world is the Pattern (True Source).  One such place that was thin in the Pattern Lanfear bored into.  That's basically it.

 

Bubbles of Evil are more thin points in the Pattern, think of it as an oil spill on a rug, and the thin points in the rug get penetrated first.

[FarShainMael]

Quote from Sir Drake:

 

We have to consider what it means to be outside of the Pattern.  The Pattern is "the whole of existence and reality."  Being outside of that is an apparent contradiction, made possible (I assume) by the actions of the Creator and the nature of the Dark One.  If I'm correct, and nothing else can exist outside the Pattern, then a separate prison is not only unnecessary, it is inconsistent.

 

Bear in mind that the Pattern was created and is maintained by the Creator, who is therefore outside it by his own nature. So is the DO. (Whether these two entities are the only two inhabiting that particular domain is an interesting speculation.) 'The whole of existence and reality' refers to the Randlanders concept of these things, it's their own 'existence and reality', not that of the external domain. Cf 'Tron', and the sentient programs' reality versus the Users' reality.

 

[mb]

Title question, I think by passing his information to other Light sided people some time before Tarmon Gaidon and letting/having those people finish whatever needs to be done.

 

[mossman87]

Quote from Sir Drake:

 

We have to consider what it means to be outside of the Pattern.  The Pattern is "the whole of existence and reality."  Being outside of that is an apparent contradiction, made possible (I assume) by the actions of the Creator and the nature of the Dark One.  If I'm correct, and nothing else can exist outside the Pattern, then a separate prison is not only unnecessary, it is inconsistent.

 

Bear in mind that the Pattern was created and is maintained by the Creator, who is therefore outside it by his own nature. So is the DO. (Whether these two entities are the only two inhabiting that particular domain is an interesting speculation.) 'The whole of existence and reality' refers to the Randlanders concept of these things, it's their own 'existence and reality', not that of the external domain. Cf 'Tron', and the sentient programs' reality versus the Users' reality.

 

 

Yeah a big problem is how RJ has said many times a lot of things we, and the characters take for fact isn't really, including the whole guide into that.  We'll never know for sure on anything until the Encyclopedia comes out probably.

[Grimtone]

Ok... I'm new as a poster here but I just finally finished a reread and finished tGS... and this is a point I've been bothered by as I've spoilered myself reading here.

 

One of the main theories is that the TP will be used as a buffer between the DO and either one half or all of the OP creating the seal.

 

Now.. Not having the gumption to dig through books and quote.. but the TP is considered basically coming directly from the DO himself right? A manifestation of his power if I recall correctly... how would this negate the effects suffered before with Saidin touching the DO in the AoL? I mean... whether its the DO or the DO's power how does that negate the possibility of tainting the source?

the DO cannot taint himself, but I think the TP holds a different purpose in this whole deal, as does fain. . . Besides I seem to recall someone quoting something that said the TP doesnt come from teh DO himself, he just holds it back like a dam, but it is still possible to reach without him or something, probably not right but if it is it explains alot

 

Ok so the second half got cleared up.. but no where did I speak of the DO tainting himself. My point was... before in the AoL LTT sealed the DO in and saidin touched the DO and was tainted as an effect. Now some people are advancing the idea of using the TP (the power comming from the dark one) as a buffer. I'm just curious how that would negate the tainting of either saidin or saidar? Thats like saying hey... i'm gonna buffer this cake icing... with more cake icing. Still curious to hear some opinions on this.

[mossman87]

Ok... I'm new as a poster here but I just finally finished a reread and finished tGS... and this is a point I've been bothered by as I've spoilered myself reading here.

 

One of the main theories is that the TP will be used as a buffer between the DO and either one half or all of the OP creating the seal.

 

Now.. Not having the gumption to dig through books and quote.. but the TP is considered basically coming directly from the DO himself right? A manifestation of his power if I recall correctly... how would this negate the effects suffered before with Saidin touching the DO in the AoL? I mean... whether its the DO or the DO's power how does that negate the possibility of tainting the source?

the DO cannot taint himself, but I think the TP holds a different purpose in this whole deal, as does fain. . . Besides I seem to recall someone quoting something that said the TP doesnt come from teh DO himself, he just holds it back like a dam, but it is still possible to reach without him or something, probably not right but if it is it explains alot

 

Ok so the second half got cleared up.. but no where did I speak of the DO tainting himself. My point was... before in the AoL LTT sealed the DO in and saidin touched the DO and was tainted as an effect. Now some people are advancing the idea of using the TP (the power comming from the dark one) as a buffer. I'm just curious how that would negate the tainting of either saidin or saidar? Thats like saying hey... i'm gonna buffer this cake icing... with more cake icing. Still curious to hear some opinions on this.

 

I think it's the use of the seals that tainted Saidin, if Rand finds some way to actually repair the Pattern I don't think they'll have anything to worry about concerning a new taint.

 

As to your analogy, I agree.  I think if there's going to be any use of the new TP link it'll be somehow to poison the DO with Fain's evil, I don't see how the buffer idea by itself would work, unless it's somehow possible to push back on the DO with his own power long enough to repair the threads in the Pattern at the Bore, dunno.

[Crossroad]

Rand will bind himself to the DO, allowing the rest of the channellers who follow him to lock down the bore.  The buffer between him and his followers will be a crucial part in the lock down procedure, the DO power will not be able to taint either saidin or saidar as they will not be connected to Rand.

 

Rand won't be able to maintain this buffer forever but will have to die to live or be totally consumed by the DO. 

 

This is where Alivia steps in to offer her assistants.

 

This will only happen if the Forsaken are all taken out.

[storywriter100]

 

I think it's the use of the seals that tainted Saidin, if Rand finds some way to actually repair the Pattern I don't think they'll have anything to worry about concerning a new taint.

 

As to your analogy, I agree.  I think if there's going to be any use of the new TP link it'll be somehow to poison the DO with Fain's evil, I don't see how the buffer idea by itself would work, unless it's somehow possible to push back on the DO with his own power long enough to repair the threads in the Pattern at the Bore, dunno.

 

 

What we are forgetting is that saidin wasnt tainted because it touched the DO, it was tainted because he actually attacked it and made it tainted. Prehaps if they took him completely by suprise, or else somehow overwhelmed him.

[Entreri]

"To live you must die".

 

Imo, either this means Rand will die and be reborn the next Age OR

 

 

Upon Rand's death, he will take over Moridin's body...By force or by Ishamael's choice.

 

Ishamael had said that sometimes the Creator's champion has betrayed the Light.  Would it not be ironic if the DO's champion betrayed him?  Ishamael essentially went over to Dark Side of the force only because he saw no way for the Jedi to win. What if Rand has found a way to defeat the DO for 'good'? 

[Durinax]

"To live you must die".

 

Imo, either this means Rand will die and be reborn the next Age OR

 

 

Upon Rand's death, he will take over Moridin's body...By force or by Ishamael's choice.

 

Ishamael had said that sometimes the Creator's champion has betrayed the Light.  Would it not be ironic if the DO's champion betrayed him?  Ishamael essentially went over to Dark Side of the force only because he saw no way for the Jedi to win. What if Rand has found a way to defeat the DO for 'good'? 

I personnally believe that Rand himself will become the seal, and through some device I cannot think of he will be reborn. After all the question he asked was "How can I win the last baattel and survive:

[storywriter100]

"To live you must die".

 

In all honesty i always thought this was refering to Lews Therin having to finally die if Rand wanted to live after the Last Battle.

[Crael123]

maybe rand will bitch stab the DO in DA FACE with callandor!

[nowwhat??]

Ok, normally I just read what everyone has to say, but this time I couldn't resist jumping in....

 

I  have seen a lot of this "True Power as a buffer to seal the Dark One in his prsion" idea. I don't think it works. How do you buffer against the DO with something that is the essence of the DO?!? I equate (very simplified) to grabbing somebody's arm and using their arm to hit them. ("stop hitting youself, stop hitting youself") It only works if you are quite a bit stronger then the other person. Sorry Rand, I think the DO has a bit more strength than you in terms of the True Powe, seeing as he IS the True Power and all.

 

Of course that leaves me baffled as to how the good guys are actually going to win. Vacuoles anyone?? or has that idea been trashed already too?? Funnel the DO into a vacuole (which exist outside the Pattern right?) somehow, exit said vacuole, and wait patiently, or come up with your own way to pop the vacuole into oblivion.... yes, no, maybe so?

[Crossroad]

Ok, normally I just read what everyone has to say, but this time I couldn't resist jumping in....

 

I  have seen a lot of this "True Power as a buffer to seal the Dark One in his prsion" idea. I don't think it works. How do you buffer against the DO with something that is the essence of the DO?!? I equate (very simplified) to grabbing somebody's arm and using their arm to hit them. ("stop hitting youself, stop hitting youself") It only works if you are quite a bit stronger then the other person. Sorry Rand, I think the DO has a bit more strength than you in terms of the True Powe, seeing as he IS the True Power and all.

 

Of course that leaves me baffled as to how the good guys are actually going to win. Vacuoles anyone?? or has that idea been trashed already too?? Funnel the DO into a vacuole (which exist outside the Pattern right?) somehow, exit said vacuole, and wait patiently, or come up with your own way to pop the vacuole into oblivion.... yes, no, maybe so?

 

I think Steven Segal will beg to differ  on your thoughts about hitting someone with their own arm.  Its not about strength its time and how much he can give the rest of the people who are trying to repair the damage to the pattern.

[Crael123]

still think rand is going to stab the DO in the face

[Entreri]

"To live you must die".

 

In all honesty i always thought this was refering to Lews Therin having to finally die if Rand wanted to live after the Last Battle.

 

LTT is just a voice in his head, even if real, not a different entity. 

 

The Dark One is able to transfer the souls of the dead to a different body.

 

Rand and Ishamael are linked...

 

It could be Nyaneve that does this.  Who knows.  But Rand is like Jesus, I expect to see him resurrected.

[mossman87]

"To live you must die".

 

Imo, either this means Rand will die and be reborn the next Age OR

 

 

Upon Rand's death, he will take over Moridin's body...By force or by Ishamael's choice.

 

Ishamael had said that sometimes the Creator's champion has betrayed the Light.  Would it not be ironic if the DO's champion betrayed him?  Ishamael essentially went over to Dark Side of the force only because he saw no way for the Jedi to win. What if Rand has found a way to defeat the DO for 'good'? 

 

For me I think Rand's body will be broken and bleeding in Shayol Ghul, Alivia will kill him somehow and Nynaeve will meet him in TAR and rip him out Birgitte style, bam resurrection.

[Just another pawn]

At some point someone has to break the wheel of time otherwise some idiot will just drill a hole in the DO's prison again. Rand breaks the wheel with the giant circles of male and female channelers, time changes it's flow from a circular one to a linear one, the DO is imprisoned for good, the Creator remains merely an observer and mankind is left to find it's own way.

Someone earlier in this thread posted the thought that the power is like water in that it is used and then replenishes itself, without the wheel to help in that cycle (since the power turns the wheel) the ability to channel is gone and we end up with today. Only today Merk and Mosk have thus far avoided throwing lightning at each other (thank you for that!) and we move on to a new future instead of pretty much the same old thing with some small tweaks... "What's with today, today?"

Just some musings on a Sunday night, time for more sleep....

[OptimusPrime]

Random idea...Random idea which is probably wrong.

 

Rand breaks the Seals and just as the Dark One begins to emerge he "moves a hairswidth" and touches Moridin. In breaking the Seals at Shayol Ghul Rand sacrifices himself as the Dark One possesses his body, but at that instant Rand touches Moridin and invades his body, leaving us with Rand-Moridin and Dark One-Rand.

 

Alivia is there linked with Narishma and Merise using Callandor. Padan Fain is also there. Fain stabs Dark One-Rand, Alivia finishes him off with Callandor, fulfilling the "help Rand die" thing, all the while Rand fulfills the "he who is dead yet lives" with the bodyswap. An eclipse happens, and when it clears Elayne goes into labour, and Min identifies Rand-Moridin as Rand wearing the mask-that-becomes-real. Dark One dead, the great battle won, but the world not yet done with battles, because humanity still exists.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I haven't but much thought into this(not my post but the subject) but I always figured that Fain is going to be used in some way to contain or be the thing that touches the dark one when Rand tries to defaet the dark one. Kinda like the wound in his side.

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah I think if Rand reseals the Dark One Fain will be the thing to touch the Dark One, but I also like the idea of Rand killing the Dark One like he said he would.

[Owayn The Traveller]

When did he say that?