How Will Rand Defeat the Dark One? (Full Spoilers)

[Aquarius]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure this turning will be any different.  I only mentioned Fain in the other thread because as of now it's the only thing we have author confirmation on that is unique to this Age, so with that I'm just throwing out ideas on how that'll be utilized.

I don't think I'll be satisfied with such an ending. Whatever the outcome I would very much like this tunring to be special.

[FarShainMael]

Unique to this Age (out of 7) or to this Turning?

 

[Aquarius]

Unique to this Age (out of 7) or to this Turning?

 

The quotes seem to say that he's not unique to this turning (he's part of the Pattern so comes back at every turning), but unique to this Age, i.e. he's not Someone-evil-from-AOL reborn.

[mb]

Title question; Rand might not, someone else might.

 

[Nightstrike]

True Power used near Shayol Ghul would fry you instantly. So it can't be used to help undo the Bore.

 

The amalgamated "Fain" concept is something that hasn't happened before. At least not exactly like it works for him now.

 

Edit: "Shadar Logoth" evil might have existed in other turnings. Although I still don't think it will have anything to do with undoing the Bore. (The Dagger isn't much of a threat to the DO, since he tainted saidin when the Bore was smaller than it will be in AMoL.)

 

 

 

 

[Crossroad]

I think Rand has no chance of Defeating the Dark One, but the next best thing is to lock him outside the pattern.

How?  I wish I knew for sure but once again its a bit of a hit an miss with me.

 

  I believe and think a good majority of us here know that Rand is the key. This key must be made to fit the lock using all the powers available to the people making this key, Saidar, Saidin and the DO True Power with the final ingrediant being Rands Blood.

 

I theorise that why the first attempt by LTT and his crew failed was not only did they not have the other half of the creaters power but also LTT did not use his own blood which at the time wasn't tainted with The TP.  That Taint is important now.

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

RJ has told us that the True Power used near Shayol Ghul would fry you instantly. But that wasn't what you meant?

 

His blood tainted with the True Power... Why would that work? Seems very strange to me.

 

 

[Aquarius]

In all twelve books, I don't remember any real link between one's blood and Saidin/Saidar/TP/whatever. I know what the prophecies say but it just seems out of place.

[storywriter100]

sorry, completely random but i hav just had a thought.

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

One of the questions Rand asks in the first book is how could a day dawn twice. Could it be possible that the day dawns, and then Rand travels to Shayol Ghul or somewhere where, (because the world is round) the sun hasn't come up yet.

Any thoughts???

[Sharaman]

Eclipse is the most obvious explanation.

In fact, I've seen something like the Popul Voh (or some other set of collected myths) where an eclipse was described in precisely those terms.

 

[mb]

I think the title of this thread needs to be changed since it assumes that Rand would be the one that defeats him.

One of these I think would be a better title for this thread:

-current with "Would" instead of "Will"

-"How will the Dark One be defeated"

 

[azrael.1289]

I think the title of this thread needs to be changed since it assumes that Rand would be the one that defeats him.

One of these I think would be a better title for this thread:

-current with "Would" instead of "Will"

-"How will the Dark One be defeated"

 

I think people took

 

"Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow...and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation. "

 

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

There had been a dream of him walking down into a great hole in a black mountain, a hole filled with a reddish glare as from vast fires below

 

Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step.

 

The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted - and had known enough even then to keep to herself - was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne...

 

Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

to mean he will be the one. But, prophecies being what it is in Randland, nothing can be taken for granted.

 

 

 

 

 

[Grimtone]

Ok... I'm new as a poster here but I just finally finished a reread and finished tGS... and this is a point I've been bothered by as I've spoilered myself reading here.

 

One of the main theories is that the TP will be used as a buffer between the DO and either one half or all of the OP creating the seal.

 

Now.. Not having the gumption to dig through books and quote.. but the TP is considered basically coming directly from the DO himself right? A manifestation of his power if I recall correctly... how would this negate the effects suffered before with Saidin touching the DO in the AoL? I mean... whether its the DO or the DO's power how does that negate the possibility of tainting the source?

[Durinax]

Ok... I'm new as a poster here but I just finally finished a reread and finished tGS... and this is a point I've been bothered by as I've spoilered myself reading here.

 

One of the main theories is that the TP will be used as a buffer between the DO and either one half or all of the OP creating the seal.

 

Now.. Not having the gumption to dig through books and quote.. but the TP is considered basically coming directly from the DO himself right? A manifestation of his power if I recall correctly... how would this negate the effects suffered before with Saidin touching the DO in the AoL? I mean... whether its the DO or the DO's power how does that negate the possibility of tainting the source?

the DO cannot taint himself, but I think the TP holds a different purpose in this whole deal, as does fain. . . Besides I seem to recall someone quoting something that said the TP doesnt come from teh DO himself, he just holds it back like a dam, but it is still possible to reach without him or something, probably not right but if it is it explains alot

[Nightstrike]

AOL chat #2 1996 ("The Two AOL chats after ACOS")

 

DayTripr1: And also is the Dark One the only source of the True Power?

RJ: Yes, the Dark One is the only source of the True Power.

 

AOL chat #1 1996 ("The Two AOL chats after ACOS")

 

Shosh001 asks: Mr. Jordan, you've outdone yourself with A Crown of Swords. My question concerns the True Power. How is it distinguishable from the One Power? 

RJ: It's fairly self-evident from the book. What can be done with the True Power is very similar to what can be done with the One Power. Except that where the One Power is drawn from the True Source and is the force that drives the Wheel of Time and powers the universe, the so-called True Power is drawn from the Dark One. There are limits in the same ways there are limits to the One Power. It would be very long if I went into it too much, but some of those limits and costs of drawing on the Dark One are shown in A Crown of Swords.

 

 

 

[Durinax]

thanks for clarifying for me

[mossman87]

I've always considered the True Power as the manifestation of Shai'tan's power like Mordeth's manifestation of his power.

 

Now true the DO is outside the Pattern, but if we consider the Creator made the DO, but had to trap him outside of the Pattern when he was causing too much damage to it, there's nothing saying it can't be an equal power, especially when we know the Mordeth evil is the polar opposite of the DO's.  Shai'tan's power seems to be the manifestation of selfishness while Mordeth's is of hate.

[mb]

"Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow...and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation. "

 

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

There had been a dream of him walking down into a great hole in a black mountain, a hole filled with a reddish glare as from vast fires below

 

Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step.

 

The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted - and had known enough even then to keep to herself - was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne...

 

Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

The most I get from those prophecies is that Rand would face the Dark One, not necessarily defeat him; and that Rand would save mankind, which may be possible with someone else defeating the Dark One.

I imagine that Rand would play a partial role in the defeat of the Dark One.

 

[azrael.1289]

I imagine that Rand would play a partial role in the defeat of the Dark One.

I think that a few people(Mat,Perrin atleast) will have their minor role, but Rand will be the actual one to defeat him.....Guess we'll just have to RAFO.

[firstfishman]

Rand will defeat the DO by besting him in a 2/3 rock-paper-scissors game.

[WolfTwins]

 

his (Dragon Reborn) blood shall give us the Light

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation.

* the Royal House of Andor held(s) the key to winning the Last Battle.

 

  BLOOD. Nowhere is said death. Rand would be alive on Shayol Ghul and in the Pit of Doom, after... B. Sanderson knows what will happen after...

  Other thing, BLOOD also mean descendants. Two children from Elayne* (or the four of Aviendha). They could be born "on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" because Elayne and Aviendha will be with Rand in the LB. (Nothing is known about Aviendha's odd babies) but Elayne will give birth after approximately 6 months.

  ... Rand is... Tai'shar Andor...* ("true blood" of Andor).

 

If you would live, you must die.

 

  I think that Rand must not "would" (to...) "live". Accept that he should die or... NO life, NO "man's salvation". This means, he must be ready to sacrifice himself, else he'll sacrifice his children. His task should be more important than life - to do a better job than Therin - to seal the Bore using saidin and saidar. If i recall properly Therin has fought against the Shadow's forces and not directly with the DO. No one could fight directly with the counterpart (weaker) of the Creator. No one should destroy DO, not even the DO plans to destroy or to fight the Creator. Contain, seal... seem to be meant for the "yin" part.

 

 

[Aquarius]

The blood on the rocks of SG might be just the battle, with Aiel (his blood) and wetlander (his blood also, through his mother) dying.

 

The blood in ht Pit of Doom might be a new wound by Fain. Something along the lines of "sheathing the sword" like in the sky above Falme in tGH. Imagine it like that : at the last moment , the DO breaks free and takes over Rand's body, finally, the DO is something that Fain can attack. And he touches Rand with the Dagger....

 

(RAFO)

[OptimusPrime]

 

his (Dragon Reborn) blood shall give us the Light

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation.

* the Royal House of Andor held(s) the key to winning the Last Battle.

 

  BLOOD. Nowhere is said death. Rand would be alive on Shayol Ghul and in the Pit of Doom, after... B. Sanderson knows what will happen after...

  Other thing, BLOOD also mean descendants. Two children from Elayne* (or the four of Aviendha). They could be born "on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" because Elayne and Aviendha will be with Rand in the LB. (Nothing is known about Aviendha's odd babies) but Elayne will give birth after approximately 6 months.

  ... Rand is... Tai'shar Andor...* ("true blood" of Andor).

 

If you would live, you must die.

 

  I think that Rand must not "would" (to...) "live". Accept that he should die or... NO life, NO "man's salvation". This means, he must be ready to sacrifice himself, else he'll sacrifice his children. His task should be more important than life - to do a better job than Therin - to seal the Bore using saidin and saidar. If i recall properly Therin has fought against the Shadow's forces and not directly with the DO. No one could fight directly with the counterpart (weaker) of the Creator. No one should destroy DO, not even the DO plans to destroy or to fight the Creator. Contain, seal... seem to be meant for the "yin" part.

 

 

 

Where does "He who is dead yet lives" come into this? And Rand with another face?

[Sir Drake]

You've still not addressed what would happen to the Dark One if the Wheel was broken. Would he just leave? To me, it seems that the Pattern is all that's keeping him at bay.

The notion that the pattern is all that's keeping him at bay presumes that the pattern is his prison.  That's sort of supported by the bore being described as a "thinness in the pattern", but hardly conclusive.

 

The Pattern-as-a-prison is sufficient (if the author so desires) to keep the Dark One from touching the world (which is part of the Pattern) until someone drills a hole.  So I don't see how a non-Pattern prison has any meaning.  I think a graphical explanation is order:

 

In the conventional setup, the Dark One cannot touch the Pattern 'cause he's outside of it:

Dark One [Pattern]world, etc.[/Pattern]

 

If he also has a little prison house, it might look like this:

[other stuff] [prison]Dark One[/prison] [Pattern]world, etc.[/Pattern]

 

My loaded question goes like ths: Does that "other stuff" represent anything?  If so, what the heck is it?  If not, then why does the Dark One have a prison to keep him from touching it?

 

 

 

If the Dark One wanted the pattern destroyed, it is pretty clear he has the means.  He should just set his minions to balefiring at every opportunity, and encourage the use of the true power.  That he doesn't suggests that he's at least indifferent to the continuance of the pattern, and perhaps wants it preserved.

 

That makes sense.  After all, a Pattern-free & empty universe kind of leaves the Dark One in exactly the same place he is now: alone in the void.  But we ought to reconcile it with Moridin's claim in TGS ch 15:

 

"But someday, [The Great Lord] will win, and when he does, the Wheel will stop...

 

"When he is victorious, all things will end.... there will be no eternities.  Only the now, the last of days."

 

One simple explanation is this: The Dark One means to stop the Wheel, but leave the Pattern (and thus the world) in existence.  Without the Wheel, the Ages will not come and go; there will be no change.  More importantly, in the WoT-world, human beings cannot exist based solely on biochemistry; they require souls.  Hence there would be no more rebirth (no Wheel to spin them out again), and hence no more birth.  The Dark One's world would soon be devoid of humanity, perhaps inhabited by Myrdraal (the Soulless, right?), or perhaps just a desloate, lifeless remnant wherein the Dark One can spend eternity reveling in his victory.  Sounds boring to us, sure, but the Dark One's motivations are decidedly not antrhopic.

 

 

[FarShainMael]

You've still not addressed what would happen to the Dark One if the Wheel was broken. Would he just leave? To me, it seems that the Pattern is all that's keeping him at bay.

The notion that the pattern is all that's keeping him at bay presumes that the pattern is his prison.  That's sort of supported by the bore being described as a "thinness in the pattern", but hardly conclusive.

 

The Pattern-as-a-prison is sufficient (if the author so desires) to keep the Dark One from touching the world (which is part of the Pattern) until someone drills a hole.  So I don't see how a non-Pattern prison has any meaning.  I think a graphical explanation is order:

 

In the conventional setup, the Dark One cannot touch the Pattern 'cause he's outside of it:

Dark One [Pattern]world, etc.[/Pattern]

 

If he also has a little prison house, it might look like this:

[other stuff] [prison]Dark One[/prison] [Pattern]world, etc.[/Pattern]

 

My loaded question goes like ths: Does that "other stuff" represent anything?  If so, what the heck is it?  If not, then why does the Dark One have a prison to keep him from touching it?

 

The DO was sealed away in prison when the Creator made the Pattern, so clearly he can penetrate the Pattern if he is free. The 'other stuff' may be those parallel worlds Rand's party encountered when using the Portal Stones.

 

If the Dark One wanted the pattern destroyed, it is pretty clear he has the means.  He should just set his minions to balefiring at every opportunity, and encourage the use of the true power.  That he doesn't suggests that he's at least indifferent to the continuance of the pattern, and perhaps wants it preserved.

 

That makes sense.  After all, a Pattern-free & empty universe kind of leaves the Dark One in exactly the same place he is now: alone in the void.  But we ought to reconcile it with Moridin's claim in TGS ch 15:

 

"But someday, [The Great Lord] will win, and when he does, the Wheel will stop...

 

"When he is victorious, all things will end.... there will be no eternities.  Only the now, the last of days."

 

One simple explanation is this: The Dark One means to stop the Wheel, put leave the Pattern (and thus the world) in existence.  Without the Wheel, the Ages will not come and go; there will be no change.  More importantly, in the WoT-world, human beings cannot exist based solely on biochemistry; they require souls.  Hence there would be no more rebirth (no Wheel to spin them out again), and hence no more birth.  The Dark One's world would soon be devoid of humanity, perhaps inhabited by Myrdraal (the Soulless, right?), or perhaps just a desloate, lifeless remnant wherein the Dark One can spend eternity reveling in his victory.  Sounds boring to us, sure, but the Dark One's motivations are decidedly not antrhopic.

 

Indeed they are not.. but the DO can transmigrate souls, grabbing them as they die and giving them bodies (from where..?) so he could have an endless supply of sentient beings to play with, or at least a constantly renewed supply.