How Will Rand Defeat the Dark One? (Full Spoilers)

[thewalrus777]

Is it ever specified that SG was a place in the AoL? The Breaking changed the face of the world. Does it not make sense that current SG and the AoL research facility are one and the same?

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

One of the Forsaken described what Shayol Ghul used to be, an idealyic island location, for people who enjoyed the rustic. V'Saine were the Collam Daan was located, is believed to be at another location. Remeber that during the breaking, things and locations literally moved around. Not just the seas rising and lowering, but actual land masses moved around and relocated themselves. So where SG is located now, was located somewhere else before. Whose to say SG didn't move to where the bore was originally created and what was V'Saine moved somewhere else? Just a theory.

[Questor]

Thank you for the clarification.

[thewalrus777]

no problem. i actually quite enjoy talking about the AoL. ;D

[ed2funy]

Only because you live in the past. ::)

Look to the future man!

[Agitel]

Is it ever specified that SG was a place in the AoL? The Breaking changed the face of the world. Does it not make sense that current SG and the AoL research facility are one and the same?

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

One of the Forsaken described what Shayol Ghul used to be, an idealyic island location, for people who enjoyed the rustic. V'Saine were the Collam Daan was located, is believed to be at another location. Remeber that during the breaking, things and locations literally moved around. Not just the seas rising and lowering, but actual land masses moved around and relocated themselves. So where SG is located now, was located somewhere else before. Whose to say SG didn't move to where the bore was originally created and what was V'Saine moved somewhere else? Just a theory.

 

I disagree with this. Stedding did get tossed around, and perhaps other things did too, but the world in the Third Age actually matches up to our real world geography too closely for me to think landmasses got shifted that much. I believe Shayol Ghul is at or very near to where the Bore was originally made. Basically, I would even go so far as to say it's in the Barents Sea or the Kara Sea to the north of Russia. Keep in mind that during the Age of Legends whether could be very strictly controlled. Either of these could be the 'cool sea' this idyllic island sat in.

[ed2funy]

I would like to point out that the Bore isn't in any one place. It is strongest at SG.

It could have been Bored at the Sharom, but some quality at SG makes it thinnest.

[Auld Manriva]

Basically, I would even go so far as to say it's in the Barents Sea or the Kara Sea to the north of Russia. Keep in mind that during the Age of Legends whether could be very strictly controlled. Either of these could be the 'cool sea' this idyllic island sat in.

 

"Cool" Sea? Try frigid. There is a reason Russia possesses the biggest, most powerful bloody Nuclear powered ICE Breakers in the world today.. and for those two bodies of water!

 

Cities that once existed are now under the ocean. Not near the existing shoreline either. Tremalking was not always an island, or so I remember (might be wrong). Ruins of a City with DOCKS for a harbor are thousands of feet up the sides of the tallest mountain range in Randland. Things did not move about? Please..

 

 

[Agitel]

I would like to point out that the Bore isn't in any one place. It is strongest at SG.

It could have been Bored at the Sharom, but some quality at SG makes it thinnest.

 

The Pattern's thinnest there, which allows the Dark One to touch the world most easily around there. However, as a whole, it seems to be something that exists all over the Pattern, a sort of force pulling on it.

[The Fisher King]

How will Rand beat The Dark One, you ask??

 

Two Words, Baby: Kobayashi Maru ;-)

 

 

Fish

[Agitel]

Basically, I would even go so far as to say it's in the Barents Sea or the Kara Sea to the north of Russia. Keep in mind that during the Age of Legends whether could be very strictly controlled. Either of these could be the 'cool sea' this idyllic island sat in.

 

"Cool" Sea? Try frigid. There is a reason Russia possesses the biggest, most powerful bloody Nuclear powered ICE Breakers in the world today.. and for those two bodies of water!

 

Cities that once existed are now under the ocean. Not near the existing shoreline either. Tremalking was not always an island, or so I remember (might be wrong). Ruins of a City with DOCKS for a harbor are thousands of feet up the sides of the tallest mountain range in Randland. Things did not move about? Please...

 

Sigh... You specified beyond land rising and lowering.

 

 

Comelle, a city in the mountains overlooking the World Sea could have lied in Morocco. Maybe Portugal. Shorelle could easily have been a port on the Caspian Sea or the Aral Sea, which fall around where the Jangai Pass is today. As should be obvious, Tremalking wasn't always an island, though I did position it a little to the south. And as I said, the people of the Age of Legends could control the weather, so weather may not have been so harsh in those days.

 

But what do I know?

[ed2funy]

How will Rand beat The Dark One, you ask??

 

Two Words, Baby: Kobayashi Maru ;-)

 

 

Fish

With noodles?

 

 

But what do I know?

 

I don't know. But that is debatable. :P

I am fine with leaving it alone. It is nice to know everything possible, but that is not always possible. ;D

 

[mb]

The title question, 'would' seems more accurate than 'will'; Rand's death may come in the middle of Tarmon Gaidon.

 

How would Rand defeat the Dark One?

Maybe Rand's taveren effect might be a factor.

Another reason for 'would':: others might deal with the Dark One.

 

The Horn/Heroes might be another factor; the Dark One being distracted so that they could get rid of the Dark One's forces.

Also, Rand maybe giving the order for the Horn to be blown; before he dies.

 

[saidarisnowtainted]

i didnt see this thread when i posted my thoughts but i would like your thoughts.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,52730.0.html

 

essentially--Lanfear made the bore.  Perhaps she can "unmake" the bore.

[a great fantasy fan]

You know, that map could actually be plausably the case...

 

And the Seanchan being American? HA! Explains the Texan Accent! Maybe the capitol is Austin! LMAO! That would be the equivelent of either Napolian, or more likely Alexander the Great, discovering America though...

 

Anyway, i would like to venture out of my cave and voice my opinions on a couple things around the general thing. Just remember, I won't mind if you pick this apart, or even tear it up in three posts. Or one :)

 

I think that the OP just MIGHT be a "sea" (Like the Mediterranian, not the Atlantic).

 

I think that the OP that the people use is but runoff of this sea that ACTUALLY drives the universe, and what collects in the "pond" is what channelers channel. When the DO tainted the "pond" nobody could get to it without going mad. But had he poisoned half the world, then it would be more obvious. And by Ishy's comments (forget exactly where) the blight was man made, and appeared before the taint, so thats not it.

 

HUGELY though, I have one that dwarf's these.

 

I postulate, What if the DO is a CREATION of the Creator, and he only thinks of himself as an equal to him. Or lies through his teeth when asked. I mean, it is possible.

 

Ying and Yang, right? I mean, what would the world be without evil? We would probably be sitting in caves still. Becasue evil is nessisary sometimes. War? Makes you think of ways to defeat evil, that means inventing new things. Surviving winter and wolves that eat your livestock is not half the motivator of people walking up on your success and saying, "Lets burn it for fun. Lets take your loved ones and kill and enslave them. Let's make em do our work for us.

 

Something to think about...

Feel free to roam about, and tear apart, my idea. :P

[thehavenot]

Hello, this is my first post here.  I've never really been interested in talking extensively about the WoT but since tGS came out and I've started a reread of the series, some thoughts have been floating around in my head.  This thread seems like a great place for the main series of thoughts that have been floating around. 

 

I apologize in advance, because this might be a tad long.

The nature of the Dark One's prison

 

We know that the Creator imprisoned the Dark One at the beginning of time. 

We know from Verin in tDR that both the Creator and the Dark One are apart from all of the various possible worlds that could be visited from the portal stones.

We know that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One: Tel Aran Rhiod.

 

Where, then, is the Dark One imprisoned?  Simply outside the pattern?  How about in Tel Aran Rhiod? 

 

The Dark One was imprisoned at the beginning of time, at the moment of creation.  There couldn't have been any worlds yet.  The prison must be somewhere. The only place left is the world of dreams. 

The nature of the bore

 

We know that those who can channel are able to physically enter the world of dreams through gateways.  It would make sense that a bore could be made into the world of dreams, to the location of the prison and into the prison, using the One Power. 

 

In fact, I think that the pathway into the Pit of Doom IS the bore. 

 

We know that the Dark One controls reality around the Pit of Doom.  Think of the stone teeth that can be high above the ground or low enough to make a person crawl on his or her belly into the pit of doom.  This sounds like a property of the world of dreams, no?  Think of the way the Dark One communicated with Demandred; in his head.  That sounds like the same way wolfs speak to each other (which seems likely connected somehow with the wolf dream). 

The weakening of the seals and clearing the rubble

 

The world of dreams is the third constant; one of three things that are constant across all of the worlds that might be.  Maybe the rubble is all of those worlds.  As time progresses, those worlds continually stack up; more and more would be constantly created. 

 

I postulate that the continual creation of those new worlds has put a strain on anything connecting the true world with the Dark One's prison; the seals.  That is why the seals are weakening.  Their...reality (for lack of a better word) is being diluted. 

 

Rand must clear the rubble.  He must somehow erase all of the worlds that might be. 

 

I have no idea how that would work. 

Facing the Dark One

 

I think that Rand must face the Dark One in the world of dreams.  He can not rebuild the prison (if that is what he will do) anywhere else.  He must rebuild the prison there. 

 

How can he do this?  Nothing done to the physical world in Tel Aran Rhiod lasts in the true world. 

 

He can do this because I don't think the prison holding the Dark One is physical.  In fact, I think that the prison holding the Dark One is somehow connected with the fact that the Creator takes no hand in the affairs of the world. 

 

We know that Compulsion is actually stronger in the world of dreams and that some oaths made in the world of dreams are stronger than any made in the true world.  What binds the Dark One, the Dark One's "prison", is an agreement.  It is an agreement made between the Creator and the Dark One.  In this agreement, the Creator sacrificed his/her/its ability to touch the world to bind the Dark one. 

 

To bind the Dark One again requires another sacrifice, made in Tel Aran Rhiod.

 

This is the purpose of the Dragon. 

 

I have a lot more thoughts about this and other things, but I think this is probably too long as it is...

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what people think (even if my ideas are torn apart). 

 

[Bobbun]

Rand will defeat the Dark One in the following manner:

 

We (and our heroes, including Rand) have been fundamentally misled about the Dark One's objective. We have been led to believe that the Dark One's goal is to break the wheel and remake all of creation in his image.  Rand will finally come to the realization that the Dark One has never before been truly defeated, because he has always been able to return with the turning of The Wheel.  In every world in every age, "I win again, Lews Therin."  He will defeat the Dark One by breaking the wheel himself, thus converting time from circular to linear going forward, and fulfilling his destiny as "The maker of futures, the unshaper of destiny."  The endless fight against fate is a central theme of the story.  In defeating the Dark One in this manner, Rand will win a victory over not only the Dark One for all time, but over fate as well.

 

[Sharaman]

The nature of the Dark One's prison

We know that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One: Tel Aran Rhiod.

Where, then, is the Dark One imprisoned?  Simply outside the pattern?  How about in Tel Aran Rhiod? 

The Dark One was imprisoned at the beginning of time, at the moment of creation.  There couldn't have been any worlds yet.  The prison must be somewhere. The only place left is the world of dreams. 

The nature of the bore

 

We know that those who can channel are able to physically enter the world of dreams through gateways.  It would make sense that a bore could be made into the world of dreams, to the location of the prison and into the prison, using the One Power. 

 

In fact, I think that the pathway into the Pit of Doom IS the bore. 

 

The weakening of the seals and clearing the rubble

 

The world of dreams is the third constant; one of three things that are constant across all of the worlds that might be.  Maybe the rubble is all of those worlds.  As time progresses, those worlds continually stack up; more and more would be constantly created. 

 

Facing the Dark One

 

I think that Rand must face the Dark One in the world of dreams.  He can not rebuild the prison (if that is what he will do) anywhere else.  He must rebuild the prison there. 

 

How can he do this?  Nothing done to the physical world in Tel Aran Rhiod lasts in the true world. 

 

 

Cutting your post for brevity -- it's an interesting thought.

The problem is, Shayol Ghul, and the Blight, have no reflection at all in TAR.

They don't seem to exist or reflect in TaR.

Which makes fighting GLoD in TaR a moot point.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Callandor is the key.

 

I think Rand will use Callandor as some sort of focus for the prison just like the seven seals. Except when the prison is being remade, Rand will coax the Dark One into attacking him.

 

Callandor becomes a battlefield. It amplified the Taint; the Taint was the Dark Ones touch and this means it is possible that the Dark One himself can interact with Callandor. While Rand is making this prison, stood where the Bore can be felt, I think the Dark One will attack Rand through the flaw in Callandor. Perhaps he destroys Callandor while the Dark One is reaching through it to attack him. Either way though, I think this could be the case; Callandor becomes a centrepoint for the prison and somehow it is used to damage the Dark One while he touches Rand through it. The three become one part could be Rand, Fain and the Dark One. It could be Rand Mat and Perrin. It might even be Rand Moridin and Shaidar Haran. Either way though, I think it will be a mixture of Callandors flaw used constructively, added with Fain using his power, that might just kill the Dark One.

 

So we now have four possible ways of hurting the Dark One if I am right. Fain and his evil vs evil power. Moridin and his connection to the Dark One. Shaidar Haran, as he IS part of the Dark One. And the flaw on Callandor put to good use.

[rhadamanthus]

Rand's ta'vern nature and the power of callandor are the keys.  Rand can warp the pattern greater than anyone else, and we are starting to really notice this in tGS.  I think it's in tSR that Moiraine tells Rand something to the effect of "your ta'vern nature may play a larger role then your power with Saidin".  I think that was a huge foreshadowing.

 

I think Moiraine and Alivia will be the one's to link with Rand via Callandor, using him as a channel to fight the "real life" battle with the DO and/or the remaining forsaken.

 

At the same time, Rand's fight will take place on another plane, as he stuggles with the DO to keep the pattern whole and rectify the bore.  Alternatively, I am a big fan of the idea that Rand comes to the conclusion that he must not simply keep the wheel turning, but crush it so that time flows in a single direction permanently, thus making the dark one's prison permanently sealed not just in space, but in time.

[Agitel]

To put a theory forward, perhaps it's come before, or perhaps it has yet to come, but the Pattern may be the Dark One's prison. Perhaps things could continue normally and non-cyclically without the Pattern, the problem is that this evil deity is then able to exert whatever god-like powers he has on the world. The Pattern could exist to bring order and structure into the world to protect it from the Dark One's touch while still allowing most people a great degree of freedom. It is where the Pattern is thinnest that the Dark One has the greatest influence on the world, and it is the thinning of the Pattern all over that allows the Dark One to touch the world in other ways. If this is true, then I think the way we think about the seals. Rather than thinking of them as binds on the Dark One himself to keep him imprisoned, perhaps they've been placed on the Pattern to hold it together, and sealed where the Pattern is thinnest and threatening to tear itself apart. As the Seals have broken, so has their ability to keep the Pattern impregnable to the Dark One's touch, and with so few seals remaining, the Pattern is obviously straining. If the Dark One is removed from existence, perhaps the need for the Pattern would be as well.

[FarShainMael]

Quoting Sharaman:

 

"The problem is, Shayol Ghul, and the Blight, have no reflection at all in TAR.

They don't seem to exist or reflect in TaR. "

 

Are we certain of this?

 

In any case, there is the realm in which Rand and Perrin meet Ishy in their dreams (see tEotW,Ch14; tEotW, Ch23; and others.) This place sounds very much as though it may be some part/aspect of SG. Ishy can also enter T'A'R (TDR,Ch55). Even if they are separate realms, the two may well be linked directly.

 

 

[Luckers]

Sharaman is correct. The Blight and Shayol Ghoul have no reflection in TAR.

[FarShainMael]

OK, scrap that then.

 

[WolfTwins]

Sharaman is correct. The Blight and Shayol Ghoul have no reflection in TAR.

  Something puzzles me: why or for what were rats in TAR, in Egwene visit in Tanchico's TAR, IIRC. I have a feeling that the rats in TAR are somehow important.

 

  How Will Rand Defeat the Dark One? DEFEAT? From where is that idea? It is cried out of WoT books that Rand will win the Last Battle if he'll die. Win the LB. Rand must die. Alivia is there to make sure of that. Only R. Jordan and B. Sanderson knows what "to live you must die" mean.

  Also is stated that Rand will seal the DO, to do a better job than Therin, from Fel's books and notes...

 

[thehavenot]

There is no reflection of the blight and Shayol Ghul in the world of dreams?

 

Where is this info from?  I don't remember this at all.

 

If this is true, it makes me wonder where Rand was when he had his first dream during tEotW.  Rand climbs a rise and sees what is very clearly Shayol Ghul.  He then names the Dark One in that dream...and nothing happens to him. That wasn't just a normal dream was it?  That just doesn't seem right...

 

By the way, that line has always felt like foreshadowing to me.  "The Light consume you, Shai'Tan!"