How Will Rand Defeat the Dark One? (Full Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

But a Gateway is an active weave.

 

It is not something, as far as I know, something that is still there.

 

If you cut a hole in a shirt, you can't uncut it. You have to sew it back up (maybe with a 'patch').

 

"unweaving" the Bore is different from repairing it.

 

This is just a random theory. But I can't see any obvious reason why it's impossible.

Somehow using Saidin+Saidar Meirin and Beidomon created an intra-dimensional connector between the Pattern and the GLoD's prison which is outside the Pattern, or at least, walled away from the pattern wherever the Creator had sin-binned Him.

That intra-dimensional connector, the "Bore", allows GLoD to touch the Pattern and he controls the physics inside the Bore. So much so, that he could keep 13 Chosen alive indefinitely in there.

The Bore was blocked by the Seals, which are now broken.

The Bore is still there and once the last of the Seals goes, GLoD will have greater freedom. Eventually he may be able to make the Bore larger and "Travel" using it.

The above is all known.

Since the Bore was a construct of OP, it may be possible to use OP to deconstruct it.

By using Balefire as so many have speculated, you'd try to make it so that the Bore was never drilled.

That's an indirect attempt to remove the Bore.

BF seems impossible since Beidomon is long dead, ditto Lanfear. You cannot use enough BF to undo actions they took 3K years back.

 

What other ways of removing constructs of power exist?

One is the anti-compulsion mirror weaves.

Another is unpicking weaves ala Avi and Elayne with Gates.

The second at least was an unknown technique in AoL (Moridin is shocked when they do it in tPoD)

Maybe neither works.

Of course, the Saidin-Saidar weaves originally used have been tied off very permanently. Maybe these have been reinforced by GLoD via TP ir by the Chosen acting in concert. 

But it may still be possible to remove the weaves somehow and thus get the Bore to become non-existent.

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

I understand that they used a OP to make the Bore.  I just don't see the logic in assuming that the Pattern became thinner there without being destroyed in some small way.  I'm thinking in terms of layers.  DO, Pattern, Reality.  The Pattern layer is thinner there, as is stated int he books.  I don't see how a standing weave to make the Pattern thinner would work.  Especially because everyone in the Age of Legends would see the weaves, or at least know they were there.  It seems more likely that some damage was done to the Pattern itself in order to make the Bore.

 

A thought just struck me...so I'll have something to add in a second maybe.

 

Edit:  Makes more sense to post it in the unnoticed things thread.

[cleantoe]

Alivia is going to help Rand die. Why Alivia? Because there's something that only she can do and no one else.

 

We need to ask ourselves now, what makes Alivia so special? What makes her unique? Why her?

 

When we answer that, I think it'll help a lot in making further assumptions about the Last Battle.

[Crael123]

balefire SG. no jk ;)

[Matcauthon999]

he'll do it by tearing the pattern with his taveren powers like Moiraine was constantly warning him against in the books where she was alive. He'll trap Fain and the DO into a different pattern and seperate them

[wotjunkie]

Alivia is going to help Rand die. Why Alivia? Because there's something that only she can do and no one else.

 

We need to ask ourselves now, what makes Alivia so special? What makes her unique? Why her?

 

When we answer that, I think it'll help a lot in making further assumptions about the Last Battle.

 

she is not bound to the three oaths.

 

i remember something moiraine said, something to the effect of the pattern weaving the DO into itself and neutralising him, could be significant maybe...

[mb]

The title question, 'would' seems more accurate than 'will'; Rand's death may come in the middle of Tarmon Gaidon.

 

How would Rand defeat the Dark One?

Maybe Rand's taveren effect might be a factor.

 

[nategator]

After thinking about some of the hints we have been left, as well as some of the larger themes, here are my thoughts and educated guesses:

 

1. We know that the taint was caused because the male side of the one source was used with seals (cullandor) to seal off the Bore.  This was a mistake, as RJ has suggested (by saying if the female Aes Sedai had joined in LTT's plan the female side would have also have been tainted) and LTT echoed when discussing the seals. 

 

2.  We know that there must be Dark One prisoned off by the Second Age, in order to avoid the Fel paradox.

 

3.  There is strong evidence to suggest that the "True Power" (a perversion of the terms "True Source" and "One Power") is the Dark One or at least so toxic there is no practical difference.  We have LTT stating so (who was probably the best expert of Randland time period on this subject, albeit crazy).  You only need to look at it's effects, it rips holes in the pattern, it corrupts and probably kills like the taint on saidin.  It turns Rand into DarthRand.  True Power = bad. 

 

4.  The One Power is critical for a healthy function of the wheel of time, and thus the pattern.  It turns the wheel, thus allowing life to continue.  Also, the Dark One doesn't permit its presence in his domain, suggesting that it is probably useful in harming or containing him and he won't take the risk of it's use even from his most trusted servants.

 

5.  Everything the Dark One has done is to fight order with chaos and keep people from working together.  This includes not only his enemies (Rand and Egwene's plot lines in the last book are pretty much a story at how people need to standtogether, albeit in different directions) but also his servants as they are picked because of their selfishness.

 

6.  RJ chose to focus on tons and tons of people.  He strived to make their stories relevant, not just descriptions. 

 

7.  Three is an important number, based on the prophecies, viewings, etc.

 

8.  Herid Fel's message may be the most important clue on how it will end.  He stated: "belief and order give strength.  Have to clear rubble before you can build.  Wil explain when see you next.  Do not bring girl.  Too pretty."  He then went fishing.

 

So, after thinking about those points, here's my guess.  Rand, Mat, and Perrin will all enter the Pit of Doom.  They are the three critical components, itwas never just the Dragon he was only the strongest/leader.  They may be accompanied by others or just all 3, depending on the practical application of my theory.  Using their abilities at Ta'Vern (thus joining the three ta'veren into one) their goal will be to heal the hole in the Pattern.  Thus, they need to first clean out the "rubble" that is helping maintain the bore, and apply the pattern.  This requires order (i.e. the pattern itself) and belief in the pattern.  Rand will also be accompanied by at least two aes sedai, to help him channel the sword.

 

Then, once the pattern is in place covering the bore, saidar and saidin must be applied to help bulwark out the Dark One, thus imprisoning him outside the pattern. 

 

I believe that running parallel to Rand, Mat, Perrin, we'll have a big skipping around to almost all the other major and minor characters in the book, each doing their various efforts to thwart the Dark One.  They will serve as a sort of metaphysical parallel, individual threads of the pattern weaving together to push the Dark One out.  The fighting itself will stop, as it never was that important, and instead the focus will be on a communal rejection of the Dark One from the pattern.  Thus every story becomes relevant to the conclusion, but focus is on the three main characters of the book: Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

 

Oh and Rand somehow is thought dead but survives.  The Dragon, the ta'vern that shook nations and battled the DO is dead, but Rand the man lives.

 

Here's why I think my theory makes more sense then some others:

 

1.  Fain gets locked up with the DO or destroys the DO accidently.  I highly doubt that Jordan would have repeated a climax solution in a previous book or stolen Tolkein's ending. I thus think the whole "two evils cancel each other out" has been done already.  Also, Fain is the combination of both evils, which made him more powerful.  Fain = bad for Rand, not the DO.  So he'll pop up but solution, I think not.

 

2.  Aliva is really really important because she "helps Rand die."  Probably just a red herring, as she has been at best a minor character.  She probably fulfills the prophecy either before or after the Last Battle, nor during.

 

3.  Using Choden Kal to fight the DO.  There has been a lot of criticism about Rand destroying the CK.  I think that falling into the same kind of thinking that doomed the Age of Legends.  The CK is a single person tool that encourages Rand to engage in the type of "I can do anything" behavior that largely fails.  Also, using the CK against the DO, whether offensively or as containment, would probably just result in another taint or something far, far, worse.

 

4.  Using the True Power as a buffer / The True Power is actually good / Rand uses his connection to Moridin / Ishy to defeat the DO.  I think all of these 3 are just wishful thinking.  There is no evidence to suggest that the True Power could ever be used for good, after all the weaves are the same but the use of True Power damages the pattern.  The Dark One uses or is the True Power, how could it be used as a buffer?  Also, I think the connection between the two is interesting, but probably not the solution.  Instead, it's probably going to be a reason for Ishy to not kill Rand (or was a reason why in the past) because he was worried about what would happen to himself.  For Ishy, selfish bastard that he is, the only way he can succeed is if Rand is converted.  Otherwise, he goes when Rand goes.

 

Had fun with this post, thanks for reading.

[ed2funy]

But a Gateway is an active weave.

 

It is not something, as far as I know, something that is still there.

 

If you cut a hole in a shirt, you can't uncut it. You have to sew it back up (maybe with a 'patch').

 

"unweaving" the Bore is different from repairing it.

 

This is just a random theory. But I can't see any obvious reason why it's impossible.

Somehow using Saidin+Saidar Meirin and Beidomon created an intra-dimensional connector between the Pattern and the GLoD's prison which is outside the Pattern, or at least, walled away from the pattern wherever the Creator had sin-binned Him.

That intra-dimensional connector, the "Bore", allows GLoD to touch the Pattern and he controls the physics inside the Bore. So much so, that he could keep 13 Chosen alive indefinitely in there.

The Bore was blocked by the Seals, which are now broken.

The Bore is still there and once the last of the Seals goes, GLoD will have greater freedom. Eventually he may be able to make the Bore larger and "Travel" using it.

The above is all known.

Since the Bore was a construct of OP, it may be possible to use OP to deconstruct it.

By using Balefire as so many have speculated, you'd try to make it so that the Bore was never drilled.

That's an indirect attempt to remove the Bore.

BF seems impossible since Beidomon is long dead, ditto Lanfear. You cannot use enough BF to undo actions they took 3K years back.

 

What other ways of removing constructs of power exist?

One is the anti-compulsion mirror weaves.

Another is unpicking weaves ala Avi and Elayne with Gates.

The second at least was an unknown technique in AoL (Moridin is shocked when they do it in tPoD)

Maybe neither works.

Of course, the Saidin-Saidar weaves originally used have been tied off very permanently. Maybe these have been reinforced by GLoD via TP ir by the Chosen acting in concert. 

But it may still be possible to remove the weaves somehow and thus get the Bore to become non-existent.

 

 

I appreciate your theory or whoever made it, but I don't agree with it.

 

The Bore implies a hole in the pattern, and while I could see something holding it there, I don't believe there is.

 

When Lanfear 'drilled' the Bore, the sphere thingy exploded immediately.

I don't know how she survived, maybe she got a new body right away, but I don't think she had time to set a weave that would hold it open.

[Sharaman]

Just a theory. I dreamt it up.

The explosion was black fire like Shaidar Haran's channeling.

So it was probably TP bursting out into the WOT-verse.

Both the AS survived - the guy committed suicide IIRC.

The explosion didn't happen at the Bore, near Shayol Ghul.

It was a "counter-strike" at the Sharom or whatever the sphere is called.

The Bore was undamaged by the explosion.

 

 

 

 

[ed2funy]

What do you mean the Bore was undamaged?f

Could you expand on that please?

[Sharaman]

The Bore was drilled at Shayol Ghul.

It wasn't hit by the explosion of the Sharom at Collam Dann.

Two different locations.

First, Mierin and Beidomon drilled the Bore through at Shayol Ghul and connected with the mysterious power.

Then they started experimenting with the mysterious power(TP).

When they tried channeling it or whatever, the Sharom exploded.

But the Bore remained and over the years it was gradually enlarged.

Then it was sealed - but that was a patch, which is being worn down.

 

 

 

[ed2funy]

I don't think they made the Bore, and then channeled it at the Sharom.

Once they made the Bore, it immediately let out some buildup, if you may, of the DO. That caused the explosion.

 

As to why the Bore (as first made at the Sharom) seems to be in a different area then Shayol Ghul, I don't know.

[Sharaman]

I don't think they made the Bore, and then channeled it at the Sharom.

Once they made the Bore, it immediately let out some buildup, if you may, of the DO. That caused the explosion.

 

As to why the Bore (as first made at the Sharom) seems to be in a different area then Shayol Ghul, I don't know.

 

I'm going by what I remember of the TSR ancestors' PoV in Rhuidean (the very last one).

It's something like "today was the day that Mierin would experiment with the new power".

The blowup may have happened pretty much instantly but it was in a different locale from SG.

Why, I dunno either -I don't think there's a clear description. At least I can't remember any.

Perhaps they may have been telemetering the drilling or overseeing it from a distance?

That would make sense - it's like you would monitor a nuclear test from well outside ground zero.

The Sharom was the research lab so, maybe GLoD decided he wasn't volunteering to be poked with meters, and hit the lab where the instruments were located.

At any rate, the explosion didn't damage the Bore- it destroyed the lab.

I guess Mierin and Beidomon may have survived because they were at SG.

 

 

 

[ed2funy]

I don't get why you keep saying the explosion didn't damage the Bore. :-\

 

Their experiment created the Bore, and the explosion was sort of a backlash, or like I said a 'buildup' of the TP or the DO's essence waiting to get out.

 

The explosion wouldn't damage the Bore, because the opening of the Bore caused the explosion.

 

[Sab]

Maybe the battle will be more like what happened at Falme.  Where it happens sort of in its own reality but will be seen by all.  It will be interesting how it happens since it can't be about brute force, as no one would stand a chance against the DO using weapons or channeling.

[Sharaman]

I don't get why you keep saying the explosion didn't damage the Bore. :-\

 

Their experiment created the Bore, and the explosion was sort of a backlash, or like I said a 'buildup' of the TP or the DO's essence waiting to get out.

 

The explosion wouldn't damage the Bore, because the opening of the Bore caused the explosion.

 

Let's say you build a normal tunnel using dynamite

One of those explosions is uncontrolled

It may destroy your tunnel or not.

 

The Bore is a inter-dimensional connector / tunnel /gate / whatever made with the OP

Drilling it led to/triggered an explosion.

However the explosion didn't cause the Bore to collapse / cease to exist/ become non-functional

So it didn't  damage the Bore.

What's so tough to understand?

 

 

 

[ed2funy]

But the Bore, imo, doesn't have something holding it open. There is no standing weave. It is more like you made a really huge huge tunnel and one stick of dynamite went off, because the Bore isn't exactly a completely physical thing. The DO is trapped outside of the Pattern, and can defy the normal reality (locking the weather in place, talking in people's heads.)

 

I still think Lanfear and Beidomon were at the Sharom went it blew. I don't know why the Bore is now the thinnest at SG.

[Sharaman]

It's not very clear what the Bore is, except that it's not physical.

I get what you're saying and I agree that this is very possible.

Was just speculating that since the Bore was created using the power, it may be possible to "uncreate" it using the power.

 

The Pattern was always thinnest at SG.

That's why they detected the TP (aka GLoD) at SG and so, that's where the Bore was drilled.

I don't know why the explosion happened at Sharom, rather than SG.

Maybe the AS did the whole drilling via "telemetry", while sitting in Sharom.

 

 

 

[ed2funy]

I think that is where we immediately go on different paths.

 

You are speculating if it can be 'unmade'.

I don't think there is anything to unmake.

 

They detected it at SG?

I thought they just....detected it. :-\

Maybe they were using the Power (we know that it should be possible to weave really far away unless your own mind hinders it....so maybe they could do it really really far?)

But I think whatever they did to drill the Bore was at the Sharom, and that is why it went capoohey! :)

[Sharaman]

I think that is where we immediately go on different paths.

You are speculating if it can be 'unmade'.

I don't think there is anything to unmake.

Fair enough - I'm nowhere near sure myself. The mechanics of the bore is very unclear.

What is the Bore? It's a tunnel, or a twist of space, or a bubble in the wall between two different space-time continuums.

How does it work? We don't have enough info.

 

They detected it at SG?

I thought they just....detected it. :-\

 

It was at SG I think- that's where the Pattern is thinnest so it's easiest to detect GLoD who is "imprisoned outside" the Pattern.

 

 

Maybe they were using the Power (we know that it should be possible to weave really far away unless your own mind hinders it....so maybe they could do it really really far?)

But I think whatever they did to drill the Bore was at the Sharom, and that is why it went capoohey! :)

 

Yes, two locations feature. I'm not sure why. It could be that the Bore was drilled while working via a normal Gate. Open a Gate from Sharom to SG and then drill, baby drill! That sort of makes sense. You have your lab instruments and researchers around in the Sharom and they can step through to the drilling site with equipment, as required. Obviously, kablooey was not considered.

 

Unless we get a Cyndane PoV that's relevant, or till Rand-LTT-Min works it out, we won't know anyhow.

It just struck me that this is an approach nobody has taken. Most folks seem to be stuck on BF, which seems nuts because you'd have to undo 3K years and both the perps are effectively dead!

 

 

[ed2funy]

I don't think they drilled it at SG.

Not in the physical sense.

I know it is thinnest there, but from the way I read the books, they drilled it at Sharom.

 

Do you have any quotes with specifics in them? I like your theory, but it is hard to change what I already (think I?) know. :-\

[Nethran Thaimal]

I think Charn believed they were in the Sharom, and Charn worked for Mierin. Thinking about it, that's why he freaked out when he saw the Sharom exploding.  He'd failed serving her because he was not in the Sharom with her when something went wrong.

[singogreatest360]

A dynamic defensive scheme, a commanding offense and dangerous special team play.

 

Bashere= Defensive Coordinater

Mat= Offensive Coordinater

Cads=Special Teams

 

Have Mat flip the coin and let's start on the offensive.

 

Bela on three

One two three

BELA

[Questor]

Is it ever specified that SG was a place in the AoL? The Breaking changed the face of the world. Does it not make sense that current SG and the AoL research facility are one and the same?

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.