How Will Rand Defeat the Dark One? (Full Spoilers)

[Crossroad]

Anyone out there thinks the Body swaps a bit of wishful thinking.  I do.

 

Why? because RJ wouldn't write something that lame into his books.  Well thats the feeling I get from going throught the books for a second time, maybe I'll have to go thru them a few more times to have a feel for that theory.  But not likely.

[OptimusPrime]

When did he say that?

 

I cant remember where but Im 100% sure when but he said it in TGS.

 

Anyone out there thinks the Body swaps a bit of wishful thinking.  I do.

 

Why? because RJ wouldn't write something that lame into his books.  Well thats the feeling I get from going throught the books for a second time, maybe I'll have to go thru them a few more times to have a feel for that theory.  But not likely.

 

But... Rand loses a hand and Moridin is hurt. Rand and Moridin act like each other. Rand was able to use the True Power because Moridin had permission, which, by default because of the link, means Rand has permission. To me it looks like the bodyswap IS happening already. The touching incedent will just be the one that makes it happen fully and finalized.

 

There was other stuff I wanted to reply to but Im at work

[shadowkiller_001]

I would rather see Moridin betray the dark one at the end. I don't like the body-swap idea myself, even though it does appear to be happening.

 

Does anyone else think that Moridin's scenes seem to be casting him in a better light? When I read the last few Moridin scenes, he seems to have empathy for Rand or a certain respect or something like that.

It's not like Rand shows up and Moridin flies into a rage and tries to kill him. They seem to have civilized discussions...

 

that's the way i read it anyway.

 

EDIT: It's as if we are supposed to begin liking/understanding Moridin almost like RJ/BS are preparing us for something.

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah I like that about Moridin. I like the fact that he thinks to himself that his interactions with the Dragon are business, nothing personal. When they meet in T'A'R Moridin seems like hes talking to an old friend almost, or at least someone hes known for a looong time.

 

I'll be gutted if Moridin turns to the Light, but I can see it happening.

[shadowkiller_001]

Yeah I like that about Moridin. I like the fact that he thinks to himself that his interactions with the Dragon are business, nothing personal. When they meet in T'A'R Moridin seems like hes talking to an old friend almost, or at least someone hes known for a looong time.

 

I'll be gutted if Moridin turns to the Light, but I can see it happening.

 

Maybe a full turn to the light would be too much. But he could sacrifice himself (a la Ingtar), or even if he just hesitates at the right moment or something (maybe when he's about to deliver a final blow to the Light). He may hesitate, unsure of his allegiances and what will happen if the DO wins, and allow Rand (or whoever) to pull out a win in the face of defeat.

[storywriter100]

[quote author=Drekka Mort link=topic=52423.msg1552016#msg1552016 date=1268064759

Maybe a full turn to the light would be too much. But he could sacrifice himself (a la Ingtar), or even if he just hesitates at the right moment or something (maybe when he's about to deliver a final blow to the Light). He may hesitate, unsure of his allegiances and what will happen if the DO wins, and allow Rand (or whoever) to pull out a win in the face of defeat.

 

I suppose that is quite possible,Ishmael (Moridin) WAS once a scholar and philosipher, i'm sure he put a lot of thought about the DO while he was appearing on and off since the AoL.  HOWEVER i dont think its guna be a really bad, corny ending like in Harry Potter, because RJ wrote the ending before his unfortunate passing, and Branforf Sanderson said it was EPICAL. I really cant see him putting thirty years into this and giving it some shitty, love rules all ending. It had better be, and will be, INCREDABLE

[shadowkiller_001]

I definitely don't want to see a 'love wins' ending, or even the use of the song.

I want a good battle, with and epic ending.

I expect a lot of main characters dying in the last two books, it just seems to unrealistic for nobody to die in the biggest battle of the age.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Yeah I like that about Moridin. I like the fact that he thinks to himself that his interactions with the Dragon are business, nothing personal. When they meet in T'A'R Moridin seems like hes talking to an old friend almost, or at least someone hes known for a looong time.

 

I'll be gutted if Moridin turns to the Light, but I can see it happening.

 

Maybe a full turn to the light would be too much. But he could sacrifice himself (a la Ingtar), or even if he just hesitates at the right moment or something (maybe when he's about to deliver a final blow to the Light). He may hesitate, unsure of his allegiances and what will happen if the DO wins, and allow Rand (or whoever) to pull out a win in the face of defeat.

 

For me this would be edging towards Rands victory over Moridin not being a real victory. There is only one Forsaken that hasnt dissapointed me in their downfall, and that is Rahvin. Rand was giving all he got, and Rahvin was winning. Nynaeves intervention didnt feel like a cop out, or feel like it took away from Rands victory; it showed what every Forsaken should have been like. Moghedien babbles about what shes going to do to you, Lanfear walked in bent on killing Aviendha and killed nobody; the reason for her delaying was justified but the fact that she caused nobody significant any real damage was not. Semirhage had victory literally in her hands very firmly. She should have channeled at Rand to make him sleep and then Travelled to wherever, but she made Rand angry enough to do the impossible-its like she doesnt know hes Ta'veren. Aginor and Belthamel! Two Forsaken at once, that should have been one of the most intense times of the series. It wasnt. Bel'als death was the only example of it being good when a Forsaken died because they underestimated their enemy. Graendal isnt dead. Asmodeans death was so obviously a plot device I could scream, and Im not even talking about the killer.

 

If Moridin hesitates when fighting Rand and that hesitation causes his downfall I will not reread the series ever again. Moridin might die if he kills Rand so he might hesitate, but Rand might die if he kills Moridin, so they both should hesitate. I think this would be a nice way to make them work together on something brief, like a bubble of evil. But if any sort of hesitation happens, if Rand works out a Power-related way to kill Moridin and not himself BEFORE Moridin does, my entire image of Ishamael will be ruined forever. I dont care that Rand has access to previous Dragon One Power instincts in the slightest. Moridin is a philosopher, and a long lived one, and a True Power user, and aside from all that, Moridin believes he will gain nothing but death from the Dark Ones victory. If it did come to a One Power battle, surely RAND would hesitate because he has to defeat the Dark One after he kills Moridin but that might also kill himself; Moridin believes he will die at the end anyway, and has survived dying at least once. If Moridin hesitates when about to deliver any sort of killing blow, I will hate him forever.

 

I am not saying any of that as factual, I am just getting stuff off my chest and spitting my dummy out in advance because I almost expect Moridins death to disapoint me.

[storywriter100]

I agree with most of what you say, but Graendal IS dead and the Green Man killed Balth, nothing to be done about it. And Aginor died because he didn't know Rand could use his powers so well. That makes sense. Something i just realised though, in the first few books it went on about the black/white cords stretching from the back of people (how Rand briefly defeated Ba'Alzammon in the first book). What happened to them?????

[shadowkiller_001]

I agree with most of what you say, but Graendal IS dead and the Green Man killed Balth, nothing to be done about it. And Aginor died because he didn't know Rand could use his powers so well. That makes sense. Something i just realised though, in the first few books it went on about the black/white cords stretching from the back of people (how Rand briefly defeated Ba'Alzammon in the first book). What happened to them?????

 

From what I remember, those are the links to the DO. It protects the male chosen from the taint. Also, I think that Rand can only see them either in the 'skimming dimension' or T'AR. They are not visible in the real world.

[storywriter100]

That seems plausile, but i don't think he saw anything for Rahvin and they were in T'AR. I don't knoow, prehaps its a lost thread.

[shadowkiller_001]

That seems plausile, but i don't think he saw anything for Rahvin and they were in T'AR. I don't knoow, prehaps its a lost thread.

 

Maybe you can't see them in T'AR . Here's where i read up on it :

http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.3_how-work-dark/1.3.1_threads.html

[Owayn The Traveller]

If the link was causing the guys to trade feelings and stuff is it right to assume Moridin will pick up on Rands new found peacefulness with his situation and start turning to the side of light because of the link. This would happen as it appears Rand is going to be less crazy from here on out.

 

Can't see Rand trying to kill the dark one by the way Mort if he said that in his Dark Rand stage. It appears he might be turning a new leaf.

 

Also is Moridin's link with Rand kinda like what Rand has with the three girls. I hope not for his sake

[shadowkiller_001]

I was thinking along the lines of someone acting differently than they are supposed to act. There is so much prophecy and repetition in the WoT universe that it might be a decent ending to have the cycle broken by people who act against it.

 

That's what got me thinking about Moridin coming to the light.

 

On the other hand, the whole basic structure of WoT is the pattern and the prophecies and the "time without end"... so maybe this wouldn't be a good ending.

 

maybe i'm babbling.

 

maybe TOR should just release the Towers of Midnight now.

[FarShainMael]

From Drekka Mort:

Moridin believes he will gain nothing but death from the Dark Ones victory.

 

From Owayn The Traveller:

Moridin < may> pick up on Rands new found peacefulness with his situation and start turning to the side of light because of the link.

 

Then perhaps Moridin will attack the DO instead of Rand (via body-swap?), because 'no-one can walk under the Shadow  so long that they cannot find the light'.

 

 

[storywriter100]

 

maybe TOR should just release the Towers of Midnight now.

 

MASSIVE LIKE :) :) :) :) :D :D :D :D

[Donnchadh]

New to posting here. I see a few things coming together to defeat and reseal the Dark One.

 

First Rand, Mat and Perrin will be back together and with Rand leading their ta'varen link (best I can describe it) their job during the confrontation will be to hold the pattern together. My opinion is that the whole 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' was to put Rand in a place mentally where he would do the dark One's dirty work in destroying the pattern. The end of TGS shows that won't happen so the DO will be trying to do this once the seals are broken. As part of this I also think Min, Elayne and Avienda will be there and their presence thru the bond will help keep Rand's head straight while the DO is talking to him in ALL CAPS.

 

Second Rand will be linked with Alivia and Nynaeve using Callandor to heal the wound in the pattern. I saw this discussed in another forum here awhile ago that the bore is a wound in the pattern. I agree with that idea and that Nynaeve will lead the circle and use Saidin and Saidar to heal the wound in the pattern. So Rand is also involved here.

 

Last is the need for the buffer between the DO True Power and the channelers using the One Power. I agree with the need for the buffer. I think it will be the evil that has been bottled up in the wounds in Rands side. It has been theorized that Fain would act as buffer but I lean toward Rand. Mainly because it provides a third reason for needing the Dragon Reborn at the final confrontation (lots of stuff happening in threes). My opinion is that Fain is going to bite it in ToM. No evidence for this, just my gut feeling.

 

Anyhow fire away

 

[mossman87]

New to posting here. I see a few things coming together to defeat and reseal the Dark One.

 

First Rand, Mat and Perrin will be back together and with Rand leading their ta'varen link (best I can describe it) their job during the confrontation will be to hold the pattern together. My opinion is that the whole 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' was to put Rand in a place mentally where he would do the dark One's dirty work in destroying the pattern. The end of TGS shows that won't happen so the DO will be trying to do this once the seals are broken. As part of this I also think Min, Elayne and Avienda will be there and their presence thru the bond will help keep Rand's head straight while the DO is talking to him in ALL CAPS.

 

Second Rand will be linked with Alivia and Nynaeve using Callandor to heal the wound in the pattern. I saw this discussed in another forum here awhile ago that the bore is a wound in the pattern. I agree with that idea and that Nynaeve will lead the circle and use Saidin and Saidar to heal the wound in the pattern. So Rand is also involved here.

 

Last is the need for the buffer between the DO True Power and the channelers using the One Power. I agree with the need for the buffer. I think it will be the evil that has been bottled up in the wounds in Rands side. It has been theorized that Fain would act as buffer but I lean toward Rand. Mainly because it provides a third reason for needing the Dragon Reborn at the final confrontation (lots of stuff happening in threes). My opinion is that Fain is going to bite it in ToM. No evidence for this, just my gut feeling.

 

Anyhow fire away

 

 

Good post, I've said for a long time Rand's wound signifies how to seal the DO again, and also that the Bore is just a hole in the Pattern cut by Mierin that needs "re-sewn" if you will, to repair it.  I don't think the DO has a prison as much as the DO is outside the whole Wheel and can get in when there's a thinness that is cut into.

[bdholsin]

Been doing a bit of re-reading.  Just an observation here but I'm theorizing that Rand will utilize Moridin in a circle as the necessary buffer to reseal the DO.  In CoS, chapter 41, Rand and Moridin became linked...I think we all agree on that.  However, I'm convinced that they aren't linked because their balefire streams crossed.  I think it was because they were physically touching while Rand was channeling saidin and Moridin was using the true power.  See below:

 

Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his.

 

So what we could see at the end is Rand channeling saidin and using callandor while in a circle with at least two female Aes Sedai (channeling saidir of course) as well as Moridin being present using the true power as a buffer. 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Been doing a bit of re-reading.  Just an observation here but I'm theorizing that Rand will utilize Moridin in a circle as the necessary buffer to reseal the DO.  In CoS, chapter 41, Rand and Moridin became linked...I think we all agree on that.  However, I'm convinced that they aren't linked because their balefire streams crossed.  I think it was because they were physically touching while Rand was channeling saidin and Moridin was using the true power.  See below:

 

Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his.

 

Read on.. The very next words are:

The two touched.

 

Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed.

etc

 

Rand's balefire 'shot upward'. The other bar slashed 'the opposite way from his', i.e. downward. The two bars touched, and both men were violently affected.

 

(It's towards the end of ACoS Ch41.)

 

But you could be right about the circle.

 

[bdholsin]

Yeah, I did read those words but I was figuring that the "gong effect" was sort of a resonance from the TP and OP coming in contact.  I was specifically trying to imply that the link was established due to the physical contact they had while they were both channeling each power. 

 

Splitting hairs here but if the "gong effect" was going to happen I would have expected it to have happened before the balefire streams crossed...actually when each man seized his respective power.  So by being physically connected they linked.  Sort of a mini circle but with the TP and OP instead of a mix of male and female Aes Sedai.

 

 

On a side note...I wonder if a TP angreal or sangreal is possible.  Just a random thought.

 

[Trenin]

On a side note...I wonder if a TP angreal or sangreal is possible.  Just a random thought.

Is one even necessary?  Didn't Rand compare the use of the TP to saidin with the Choedan Kal?  That makes it sound like they were equivalent - so why would a *angreal ever be needed?

Or was he simply comparing the feeling of channeling the TP to the feeling of channeling that much saidin? I can't recall at the moment - I will have to find and re-read the chapter again.

[Random Man]

The actual power isn't equivalent -- just the way it made him feel. If the TP could actually rival the Choden Kal, Moridin could attempt to unmake existence by himself anytime he wanted. The high you get from the TP is much, much stronger, though -- like comparing caffiene to shooting up heroin. Drink enough coffee (a la Choden Kal), you're going to feel pretty wigged out, too.

[aunt_pol]

A tiny wee point here, somewhere in the last 20-odd pages someone said somethin that made me think of the Ulster cycle (Irish) and Cuchulain's death. The hero is defeated, he's dying, but there's not a hope in hell he's gonna kneel to his enemy. So he has his supporters strap him to a pillar / standing stone to keep him on his feet. He dies eventually, strapped to his pillar, sheer bloodyminded defiance to the bitter end.

That's the potted (2a.m.) version, and you may look elsewhere for the poetry & beauty, but something just triggered the image in my head... fits quite well with the Aiel stance on the DO, and Rand's dream experiences with Ishy early on in the series. I know we're gonna get a hugely hectic showdown, but I do reckon RJ/BS will have some 'Eye of the tornado' moments for us in there.

Does anyone reckon the Creator is gonna pipe up again? Think he'll deem the Chosen One ready?

 

Can't flamin' wait.

[FarShainMael]

There is a hint of that right at the end of tGS, in one of those truly spinechilling moments. Egwene is looking out at Dragonmount, whose peak is bathed in light.

 

'It felt relaxing to stare at that distant light, so welcoming and noble. "Storms will soon come," it seemed to say. "But for now, I am here."

 

 

 

 

I am here.  '