The Nature of the Dragon's Soul (Full Spoilers)

[Crael123]

umm..... i think optimus is really Abraham  Lincoln  in disguise...... well said my good sir. well said indeed.

[Iskandar]

Hi all, first post here.

 

I have a theory that I have not yet seen (or might have missed) - I've been lurking here since around a month before the release of TGS.

 

I think TGS showed that Rand is really the Dragon's soul spun out of the Wheel (Min even said it in clear text, IIRC) and as such Lews Therin was more or less a "construct" of Rand's. Just as the Pattern started to mold Rand more and more to suit its needs, memories of the previous reincarnation of his soul started coming back but Rand constructed for himself another person, so that he won't be buried under the guilt of what Lews Therin did. Much in the same way as when we refuse to take responsibility and blame another, it all just happened in its head, on subconscious level.

 

As to why the memories of the previous incarnation of the Dragon started seeping through, my only idea is that it's because Lews Therin "cheated" and killed himself, escaped the confrontation in a way, and thus his soul was in turmoil and not in its supposed latent state until and during its next reincarnation and carried over some things from before. It's very symbolical that he "died" in the same place, Dragonmount  ;)

 

In this line of thought, I believe the nausea is caused by Rand's revulsion on a subconscious level at what he did with saidin the last time around and so every time he grabs for it, his revulsion manifests even physically. If I'm not mistaken, the nausea started after the battle with Seanchan in TPoD, where he started killing his own men at one point. And as Rand became harder and darker, the nausea became stronger until Ebou Dar, where it almost killed him (and where he was ready to kill perhaps millions of innocent people).

 

Both ideas seem even more plausible to me, considering the fact that RJ, as a war veteran, would have personal knowledge of what war and killing does to the people who suffer it and to the people who commit it. Anyway, I believe that both these issues were resolved at Dragonmount and we won't see them again.

 

 

Another idea that I want to mention, although I'm not sure this is the right thread, is that the Song will play much more significant role than we think, it won't be just a nice touch after the LB is over. Back when the Big Unnoticed Thing came up(this is not it though) I started to go through book 4 in my head and remembered a scene from the memories of Rand's ancestors, where some Aes Sedai were talking how ten thousand Dai Shain joined hands and Sang to a mad channeler trying to remind him who he was. It sounded to me as if the Song's effect is not limited to just better crops.

 

IIRC Moiraine mentioned at the end of TEotW or in TGH that the Eye wasn't used as it was intended; there is also the fact that exactly Someshta, the last of the Nyms, was its guardian and that Rand felt that he should recognize what Loial sang at Someshta's dying place.

 

A crazy idea that comes to mind is that the Song maybe somehow involved in repairing the Bore. We know that LTT/Rand believes that even if saidin and saidar were used together, it wouldn't have worked / would have been both tainted. We also have in the prologue of TEotW LTT thinking that he was too arogant to believe he could fix what the Creator have done. Now, I know that RJ set Randland up drawing more from zoroastrian and hindu theology, rather than abrahamic, and we probably won't see an intervention from the Creator, but singing is one of the most universal forms of worship and as such RJ might have intended for it to have the power of changing the Pattern itself. This of course opens up interesting possibilities for the future of Aiel, but ...  aaahh, perhaps the song and Aiel should have their own thread.

 

Anyway, my two cents.

[OptimusPrime]

Optimus have u posted this in another thread? As i'm sure i've seen this idea before and everyone agreed with it. Some even feel the bubble's are incorrectly attributed to the DO, that they are more directly an effect (affect?) of the dragon's presence. But definatley that all the wierd incidences were  due to Rand becoming darker, and many of the food spoilages and the wards (incl. the ones that keep out vermin) failing. Though i hadn't really considered the giant one in Arad Doman to be a result of that before.   

 

Yeah I did but not in as much detail. I myself didnt note about the White Tower wards or the bubble of evil though.

 

Nice one Crael! But Im English so I need a Brittish equivalent.

 

I am Margaret Thatcher.

 

 

[Crael123]

Winston Churchhill maybe?  ;D

[OptimusPrime]

Or maybe Apollo Creed, but in Rocky 2 when he was an arrogant clown

[Crael123]

I did not know Apollo Creed was English. wow, learn new things every day.

[SHMEV]

The food spoilage seems to be coming from Rand channeling the TP. The halo of darkness falls upon Rand once he gains access to the TP and ever after when we read about him using the TP, the halo of darkness is there as well. Soon after we see a halo of darkness around Rand, someone comes and tells the reader that the food has all spoiled. Once it suddenly happens to Nynaeve and Min's tea right in front of them as Rand grasps the TP and is haloed by darkness.

I put this on this tread because I do not think that the food spoilage is tied to the Dragon's soul. And after reading the book for a second time while watching for food spoilage, this phenomenon seems fairly obvious. I have not seen anyone post about it and I would like to hear theories.

 

Also I am aware that food was spoiling before Rand ever channeled the TP. Nonetheless, if you read TGS while looking for this connection it is undeniably there. As for the food spoilage beforehand, best theory I have is that the forsaken Channel the TP, perhaps there is a connection there too.   

[Agitel]

The food spoilage seems to be coming from Rand channeling the TP. The halo of darkness falls upon Rand once he gains access to the TP and ever after when we read about him using the TP, the halo of darkness is there as well. Soon after we see a halo of darkness around Rand, someone comes and tells the reader that the food has all spoiled. Once it suddenly happens to Nynaeve and Min's tea right in front of them as Rand grasps the TP and is haloed by darkness.

I put this on this tread because I do not think that the food spoilage is tied to the Dragon's soul. And after reading the book for a second time while watching for food spoilage, this phenomenon seems fairly obvious. I have not seen anyone post about it and I would like to hear theories.

 

Also I am aware that food was spoiling before Rand ever channeled the TP. Nonetheless, if you read TGS while looking for this connection it is undeniably there. As for the food spoilage beforehand, best theory I have is that the forsaken Channel the TP, perhaps there is a connection there too.     

 

The Dark One's touch on the world is causing the food to spoil. I don't remember it saying that Rand channeled the TP after that one event, though I probably missed something. If it is the case they he had, we could just say that it amplified the DO's touch in the immediate vicinity, or that it itself caused increased chaos to cause such a thing, but I wouldn't link the food spoilage and events ONLY to the use of it.

 

I just wanted to add for something else I read, the sickness is tied to events that happened at Shadar Logoth when Moridin rescued Rand in his battle with Sammael. They both used balefire, Rand of saidin and Moridin of the TP, which crossed, which caused both of them to reel in dizziness. Since then Rand has had the sickness, and apparently Moridin does too. They also are linked in other ways, seeing each other's faces at times, coming to the point that there are moments when Rand feels that if he were to move an inch their souls would touch. It's this link that causes the sickness and allows him to draw on the TP.

 

As I doubt the TP would make Rand sick like saidin does, I can imagine him being more inclined to using it. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I missed him using it, he probably did many times afterwards. I believe he did with Hurin.

[grandpoobah]

Personally, I think that Rand's nausea is a result of the balefire crossing with Moridin at Shadar Logoth. I think that metaphysically, Rand and Moridin's "souls" were crossed, ie their "threads in the pattern" are now linked, and this explains why there is stuff starting to seep through from one to the other.

I'm not sure if this was intended by the Pattern to happen, and what effect this occurence will have upon the Last Battle. It would make more sense for Rand to fight Moridin before he reseals the Dark One's prison-too much drama in one scene, otherwise.

[OptimusPrime]

Also I am aware that food was spoiling before Rand ever channeled the TP. Nonetheless, if you read TGS while looking for this connection it is undeniably there. As for the food spoilage beforehand, best theory I have is that the forsaken Channel the TP, perhaps there is a connection there too

 

Why did food spoil before Rand channeled the True Power then? The True Power has nothing to do with the Pattern. It adds to his aura of darkness but thats it. How would you explain the fact that all the food he brought didnt spoil until he turned his back on Arad Doman?

 

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

It does seem like RJ/Sanderson made a point of showing Min and Nynaeve's tea going bitter when Rand's dark aura intensified.  Like it sucked the goodness out of his surroundings when he held it.  Not that that explains the grain spoiling instantaneously.  I'll have to reread that part.  But the link between the two seems purposefully interjected.

[OptimusPrime]

The connection is that Rands will affects the Pattern. He might not have consciously thought "I want that tea to rot" but his emotions affect the Pattern and this is not just because he can use the True Power. He brings food to Arad Doman, and that food didnt rot until he decides he is going to turn his back on the city; he actually finds out just before he leaves.

 

"Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time may learn the truth too late" to me now means he must learn that his will affects the Pattern before he destroys it. He is one with it, and if he turns dark, the Dark One breaks free.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Ahh, I see what you mean now.  Makes sense. :)

[Bastor]

I would go for "The true power is part of the dark one". Basically channelling is like spreading the DO corruption. I mean food spoils because the seals are getting weaker and he can touch the world BARELY. Rand channelling his essence/part of him/his power or w/e the true power is brings that corruption...

[OptimusPrime]

Except early events with both Egwene and Mat show just how loose the Pattern was becoming, and food was rotting before TGS. All that started before Rand channeled the True Power.

[Bastor]

Except early events with both Egwene and Mat show just how loose the Pattern was becoming, and food was rotting before TGS. All that started before Rand channelled the True Power.

Yeah but it has never rotted in such a large scale and fast way. I mean sure we get food spoiling here and there but not this massive...also the taviren nature of Rand was also corrupted by the True Power (all of the bad and none of the good things that he usually happen (weird deaths but no births, no impossible survivals). I mean we have seen him pissed off and all nasty and dark before but there was always a balance but in TGS after he uses the TP it is specifically noted none of the good things happened....

I am not saying that the land isn't one with Rands soul...I am saying it truly is and it is very clearly visible after the true power "corrupts" Rand...

[OptimusPrime]

But the True Power itself doesnt affect it. Rand made himself cuindellar after the True Power became available-this was another step in his darkening. Yeah sure the True Power had a negative effect on Rand, and thus his Pattern interaction, but not directly. The True Power affected Rand, but Rand still makes the bad stuff happen, whether he means to or not. If you're going to mention food rotting being because of the True Power and not his will look at the food he brought to Arad Doman and look at specifically when it rots. Not until Rand stopped caring about Arad Doman.

[Vermillion]

Rand only channeled TP once.

 

I always assumed the darkness was from him assuming the dark void, like how Ishy was when he used TP.  I don't think Mordy has been mentioned with it though.

[SHMEV]

I know that there are many problems with the theory, I posted in the first place that if the TP alone causes the food to spoil then its not Rand because it was spoiling before hand. Therefore the only possible answer if this is true would be Forsaken channeling the TP, and that seems unlikely because all of them but Ishmael are reluctant to use it. Why was it rotting before hand? I dont know. All i wanted was for the phenomenon to be looked at closer.

 

Th

Also I am aware that food was spoiling before Rand ever channeled the TP. Nonetheless, if you read TGS while looking for this connection it is undeniably there. As for the food spoilage beforehand, best theory I have is that the forsaken Channel the TP, perhaps there is a connection there too

 

Why did food spoil before Rand channeled the True Power then? The True Power has nothing to do with the Pattern. It adds to his aura of darkness but thats it. How would you explain the fact that all the food he brought didnt spoil until he turned his back on Arad Doman?

 

The TP has nothing to do with the pattern? Really? Where are u getting this Info? The halo of darkness could be Rand forcing the pattern to his will. But it makes just as much sense that he is channeling the true power. And the halo of darkness does seem to have a spoiling effect. All i am pointing out is that the book has a pattern. Halo of darkness is soon followed by a report of spoiled food. With the best evidence being the Tea scenario.  

 

Could the food spoiling in Arad Doman could be because Rand has been channeling the TP in Arad Doman on and off screen for most of the book? Lets think about this for a min. Off screen, the food spoils. (cause: Rand forcing his will on the pattern or channeling the TP i.e. halo of blackness, on the child whose mind had large amount of compulsion?) It probably takes some time for someone to notice. He has to tell someone with authority to check all the remaining food in Arad Doman. They have to organize then physically look. They have to get the guts to tell the Lord Dragon. Point being is that in Randland nothing ever happens quickly. It is unlikely that someone noticed all the food was spoiled the min Rand decided to leave and managed to check all the food and then tell Rand before he left. Funny how when he went to Tear, all the food there seemed fine with people who seemed fat and happy...

 

The halo of blackness does not have to mean that Rand is channeling the TP. It could be that it is him forcing his will on the pattern. However, the halo of blackness meaning that he is channeling the TP makes as much sense  

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

The TP has nothing to do with the pattern? Really? Where are u getting this Info? The halo of darkness could be Rand forcing the pattern to his will. But it makes just as much sense that he is channeling the true power. And the halo of darkness does seem to have a spoiling effect. All i am pointing out is that the book has a pattern. Halo of darkness is soon followed by a report of spoiled food. With the best evidence being the Tea scenario.  

 

Quoting TGS page 740 hardback

 

"I am the Dragon Reborn!" Rand roared at saidin, at Tam, at the Creator himself. "I will not be your pawn!" He pointed at Tam with the access key. His father lay on the stone floor of the balcony. "You come from Cadsuane, pretending to show me affection. But you unwind another of her strings to tie around my throat! Can I not be free of you all?"

 

He had lost control. But he didnt care. They wanted him to feel. He would feel, then! They wanted him to laugh/ He would laugh as they burned!

 

Screaming at them all, he wove threads of Air and Fire. Lews Therin howled in his head, saidin tried to destroy them both, and the quiet voice in Rands heart vanished.

 

A prick of light grew in front of Rand, sprouting from the center of the access key. The weaves for balefire spun in front of him, and the access key grew brighter as he drew more power.

By that light Rand saw his fathers face, looking up at him.

 

Terrified.

 

What am I doing?

 

Rand began to shake, the balefire unravelling before he had time to loose it. He stumbled backward in horror.

 

What am I DOING? Rand thought again.

 

No more than Ive done before, Lews Therin whispered.

 

Tam continued to stare at him, face shadowed by the night.

 

Oh, Light, Rand thought with terror, shock and rage. I am doing it again. I am a monster.

 

Still holding tenuosly to saidin, Rand wove a gateway to Ebou Dar, then ducked through, fleeing from the horror in Tams eyes.

 

Not once in that scene does it mention the True Power, yet Rand is in one of his darkest moments. He channels and the glow of the access key lights up Tams face, yet moments later Tams face is shadowed by "the night" even though Rand is still channeling. BS was being very clear in that passage.

 

The dark aura is nothing to do with the True Power.

 

You yourself said the aura is linked to the spoilings, yet that passage proves that the dark aura has nothing to do with the True Power, but actually Rands state of mind.

[SHMEV]

Shadowed by the night is not haloed in darkness. In fact this supports the idea that the halo of darkness is when he is channeling the TP, because this is one of his darker moments and we do not see the halo and he is channeling the one power.

[OptimusPrime]

Oh my God. It specifically says Tams face was lit up by the Choeden Kal and it specifically tells you he was STILL holding saidin after Tams face was darkened by "the night." It is a PoV based book, Rand is not going to notice his dark aura unless he sees it in situations like this, where it changes the lighting more visibly.

 

Exactly how long was Rand stood there? Long enough for the sun to go down?

[SHMEV]

It Rand saw Tams face lit up because he has the OP. He has experienced a lighting effect filling his bones on fire since book one. Also of course Rand is not going to notice a halo of darkness around himself, hes not looking at himself. His face being shadowed in darkness is not having Rand haloed in darkness particularity after RJ/BS spent as much time specifically using that terminology the rest of the book. Good point. But not sufficient evidence. Could just be mood building. Earlier when he is haloed in darkness it is a surrounding atmospheric effect. His face is just his face shadowed by the night. 

 

That being said. This also supports the Halo of Darkness being correlated to when Rand wants to bend the pattern to his will, because he is not in this forcing the pattern here and it is a dark moment for him.   

[OptimusPrime]

Good point. But not sufficient evidence.

 

As sufficient as you can get without ramming it down someones throat. Tams face is visible because the CK glows, and while it still glows Tams face was darkened. Up to you what you believe, but Rands darkness is not related to the True Power.

[Bastor]

Good point. But not sufficient evidence.

 

As sufficient as you can get without ramming it down someones throat. Tams face is visible because the CK glows, and while it still glows Tams face was darkened. Up to you what you believe, but Rands darkness is not related to the True Power.

He starts "charging" the BF and then before releasing it he realises what he is doing and stops drawing so much power from the CK and

Rand began to shake, the balefire unravelling before he had time to loose it. He stumbled backward in horror.

so the CK is glowing less or the BF is now gone ....doesn't matter. What matters is that this scene is not connected with his "halo fo drakness" imho. I am pretty sure that it is a sign of TP channelling but not in progress. It is the sign of the corruption and darkness that the TP brings to one individual as a whole. There is still no visible mark of channelling in progress.