A question about shielding

[csarmi]

I think it's the usual Aes Sedai know-it-all attitude we see here. They don't believe in skill. They believe in power. They are dogmatic. They never fight fair. They have rules of thumbs like 'you have to be much stronger to shield someone who is holding the power' and 'even a weaker person can hold a shield if there' and 'a shield have to be maintained' but they don't really know why and never care to test. They never really had a reason to.

 

They don't know that a shield is vulnerable, if not maintained.

They don't know that skill is more important than power in a lot of cases.

They don't really know how duelling works. They can't reverse their waves, they can't hide their power, nothing.

 

Moghedien did know that Nynaeve must be close to her in power, but she should win a fight easily vs a noob so she's trying to shield her. Why shielding? She knows shielding (dueling) is 'chancy', but she thinks she is much more skilled and she should win easily. She knows it's skill and craftiness, not power, that matters.

 

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

I agree that the Aes Sedai have a lot of flawed knowledge, but I fail to see how something that is used so frequently is one of the things where they're wrong.

 

'you have to be much stronger to shield someone who is holding the power'

 

I definitely disaggre with you that they Aes Sedai don't care to test that.

 

Since they teach shielding, they do at least practice it to some extent - and since Reds are most likely going to actually use it in a life or death situation, it would be reasonable to assume that they practice it even more. And they do use it against channellers for real. So if they believe that you have to be stronger, I believe that they know what they're talking about. If you're going to be prepared to shield someone who's channelling the One Power, it would be pretty stupid to never have practiced doing just that. So I will assume that the Aes Sedai do practice - and that they do know, for a fact. Since there doesn't seem to be anything to indicate that there are superior ways to shield (as there are superior Healing weaves), the shields used by different people should work the same.

 

 

'even a weaker person can hold a shield if there' 

 

But that's definitely true? Otherwise they would never have left just 1 Black guarding Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene once they were shielded.

 

 

They don't know that a shield is vulnerable, if not maintained.

 

How do you know they don't know? If they didn't know, and believed that a shield could not be broken, why would they bother to maintain shields at all?

 

 

They don't know that skill is more important than power in a lot of cases.

They don't really know how duelling works. They can't reverse their waves, they can't hide their power, nothing.

 

On those points, I actually tend to agree. They put an aweful lot of faith in pure strength. But I don't agree completely, since they obviously know that skills such as Healing has nothing to do with strength. We are told that Chesmal is one of the best Healers in the Tower, and she's not awfully strong (weaker than Liandrin who's than at least Moiraine).

 

 

[Nightstrike]

They were still shielded after the BA was stilled. So they had some tied off shields in place as well.

 

Strength is a more or less necessary thing. Shielding someone of the same strength is a matter of chance. I believe it's a matter of chance even if you're a fair bit stronger. Skill is also a really good thing to have.

 

They are trying to cut a moving flow. Maybe the connection is moving too, even if the channeler is standing still and not changing any weaving? Could explain why it's a matter of chance.

 

[Taura-Tierno]

Amico was stilled in TAR, which is why they were still shielded, but she shield was odd and strange. It didn't disappear until Nynaeve knocked her out cold.

 

TDR, What is Written in Prophecy:

 

"It is different now, but I [Elayne] am still cut off." /../

The invisible wall was still there. It shimmered now. There were moments when she almost thought she could feel the True Source beinning to fill her with the Power. Almost. The shield wavered in and out of existence too fast for her to detect. It might as well have still been solid. /../

 

Mat jumped as Nynaeve suddenly reared back and swung a fist, knocking the woman completely off the bench. she lay there, her eyes closed all the way finally /../

"It is gone," Elayne said excitedly. /../

"Yes. It feels wonderful. Something changed about her when you hit her, Nynaeve. I do not know what, but I felt it."

 

I would assume that the thing they felt change about Amico was that the stilling was realized in the real world, and transferred from TAR, and that they sensed her ability to channel go away.

 

Not that I'm arguing against skill being a factor (not with these quotes anyway), just wanted to point out that they were in fact held by an active shield.

 

[Taura-Tierno]

Ok, I just had a new idea of how Nynaeve vs Moghedien works, which I believe fits both the strength-theory and the skill-theory.

 

 

I will assume that 2 channellers of equal strength cannot shield each other in terms of strength, that is, without any kinds of tricks or distractions that first reduces the opponents hold on the Power.

 

 

If the connection to the Source is like a tunnel, let's say that Mogh's and Nyn's tunnels have a diameter of 1 meter. That's completely made up, but let's say, for the sake of argument.

 

If a very weak channeller tried to shield any of them, say, Daigian, who's got a "tunnel" diamater of 10 centimeters (again completely made up, so let's not discuss the strength distribution and such). Her shield would shatter against Nyn's hold on saidar, assuming that she's holding as much as possible, much like an axe of thin, fragile glass wouldn't be able to cut down a thick tree. Nynaeve would notice it, but it wouldn't be a bother.

 

Now we know that being nearly shielded by someone stronger than you is most uncomfortable, if she shield touches you. We see this when Lanfears repeatedly tries to shield (or sever) Rand, and when Merean tries to shield Moiraine in New Spring. The stomach turns and whatever. It's unpleasant.

 

If two people are of the same strength, it might be possible that the shield would enter the "flow" of power a short bit. Let's say that, if Moghedien had stopped blocking Nynaeve's shield, the shield would have entered 10 centimeters into Moghedien's flow of the One Power before rupturing from the flood of Power. She would not be shielded, but her link to the Source would be very briefly reduced, and she'd suffer some uncomfort.

 

A bolder Forsaken might have reasoned that it doesn't matter, let's take that uncomfort and then overwhelm this 3rd age worm. But Moghedien is the Spider, well known for being catious, never taking risks, etc. Now, if she'd let go of Nynaeve's shield and let it splinter against herself, she'd be briefly weakened. It's possible, even if highly unlikely, that in that brief moment, Nynaeve would manage to launch yet another assault. Perhaps something nasty that would harm Moghedien, or perhaps another Shield that would hit Moghedien before her hold on saidar had returned to full strength. In that latter case, her hold on the Power would lessen even more than before, and perhaps repeated assaults like that would eventually result in a complete shielding. It's not very likely that Nynaeve would manage that, but the possibility exists.

 

I'd wager that Moghedien reasoned that while they were in a deadlock, she had the upper hand. She could probably continue channelling as much as she did for at least as long as Nynaeve (she did have experience on her side), and since she knew about Nynaeve's block, she probably assumed that Nynaeve's anger would run out before her stamina, so she'd just loose hold of the Power on her own, especially if Moghedien could distract her mentall towards other emotions. As such, keeping the deadlock going was the safest bet, since it involved less risk than taking uncomfort, a slight distraction and a lessened hold on saidar for a brief time. Hence, Moghedien did not let the shield splinter.

 

Nynaeve, I assume, just thought "the HELL I'm letting ANYTHING woven by a forsaken touch me, no matter if it seems innocuous and completely harmless".

 

In that case, my theory that you cannot shield someone of equal strength holds. But it's equally true that by skills in dueling, weaving quickly and deftly and some unconventional thinking, you could beat your opponent. So the skill plays an essential part, since you'd have to somehow distract you opponent, or lessen the amount of the Power that is held, enough that you could drive a shield in completely.

 

How does that sound?

[Nightstrike]

Amico was stilled in TAR, which is why they were still shielded, but she shield was odd and strange. It didn't disappear until Nynaeve knocked her out cold.

Thanks. I had forgotten about that.

 

In that case, my theory that you cannot shield someone of equal strength holds. But it's equally true that by skills in dueling, weaving quickly and deftly and some unconventional thinking, you could beat your opponent. So the skill plays an essential part, since you'd have to somehow distract you opponent, or lessen the amount of the Power that is held, enough that you could drive a shield in completely.

Sounds good to me (although I see it a little differently). Maybe more details will be explained later on. Harriet's encyclopaedia, WoT computer games and so on?

 

 

 

These were all the relevant RJ quotes I found when I did a quick search (but they don't explain it all):

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: Ask what the deal is with Nynaeve being able to hold half the Power as ten sisters with a sa'angreal but not being able to handle two pussy little Black Ajah by herself.  

RJ: Some people have shielding Talents.

 

 

Q:  How much stronger do you have to be to forcibly shield someone else who is already holding the One Power? Is it different for men than for women, or for heterosexual shielding? If the answer is only a little stronger, then ask him how come Nynaeve couldn't shield Elayne in A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 (Swovan Night)? Also, how much weaker can you be and still be able to hold a shield on someone, Berowin excepted?

RJ:  He did not use a "real scale" for One Power stuff. You just have to be stronger. Mostly handwaving. Consider the Kin. The woman who is very weak but has a real Talent for shielding.

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

Although I interpret those quotes, especially the last, as relating to the final question "Also, how much weaker can you be and still be able to hold a shield on someone, Berowin excepted?", so that the Talent actually applies to holding shields, i.e. being able to alter the shield put in place and make it extremely flexible and bendable.

 

But I suppose until there's something more concrete in the books, we'll just have to agree to disagree to some extent ^^

[Sharaman]

Shielding in both the Moggy-Nyn duel in Tanchico and the Rand-Lanfear scrap in Carhein seemed to have been happening via a two-step process.

First, use a sharp weave of spirit to cut off contact with the Source

Second, shield in the instant that the other party is cut off.

 

Rand at Dumai's Well did something else - he crushed three AS with "fists of spirit". It's as though he was so much stronger than them that he could dispense with the first step of cutting them off.