A question about shielding

[Taura-Tierno]

There's one thing that's always had be bit confused regarding shielding the series.

 

We know that to shield someone who's holding the One Power, you need to be much stronger, otherwise it doesn't work and is in fact quite unpleasant. So unless you're weaker than an opponent, you don't have to fear being shielded.

 

So why did Moghedien and Nynaeve fight the way they did? Spirit against Spirit, each keeping the other's shield from touching the connection to saidar. If they were evenly matched in strength, shouldn't both shields just have shattered at an attempt to shield? Why bother attempting it at all, let alone trying to keep the shield away? I could accept Nyaneve trying to stop the shield from touching her, since she might have missed the part about shielding someone who's holding the one power, but Moghedien should have known.

 

So why?

 

In Winter's Heart, when Nynaeve is practicing with Talaan, we see something similar.

 

The severed flows snapped back into Talaan, jolting her visibly, but before they had vanished properly, six more appeared, faster than before. Nynaeve slashed. And gaped as Talaan's weave of Spirit flickered around hers and wrapped around her, cutting off saidar.

 

- Winter's Heart, Ideas of Importance

 

I suppose that Nynaeve might not have been drawing near her limit, but it seems to be that should have, since they'd been practicing on shielding each other. This is from just a few pages earlier:

 

A simple ploy, but the girl [Talaan] gasped in surprise, and for an instant her embrace of the Source lessened just a hair, the faintest flicker in the Power filling her. In that heartbeat Nynaeve stopped the pushing she had just begun on the other's flow, and snapped her own back to its original target. Forcing the shield onto Talaan still felt much like slapping a wall - except the sting was spread evenly across her skin rather than just her palm, hardly an improvement - but the glow of sadiar vanished ...

 

So it was still difficult for her to shield Talaan, but she succeeded because she managed to disrupt her concentration. But it didn't seem to me that Talaan managed to do the same to Nynaeve. So how did she manage to shield her?

 

It's something that's always bugged me, because it seems to contradict everything else that's mentioned about shielding, unless I've forgotten some detail somewhere :P

[Talmanes]

First off I believe that Taalan was extremely strong. Next it isn't that you have to be stronger than your opponent it is just that it takes more strength and effort to shield someone holding saidar than someone not. We see this when this when a member of the Kin is able to maintain  shields on both Nynaeve and Elayne although she is much weaker than both of them.

[acerbus80]

If (big if) I remember correctly, when Moggy and Nyn duked it out, it wasn't simply just shield vs. shield, but each was throwing multiple weaves at each other in an attempt to distract the other long enough to lock their respective shields in place.  Also, I don't believe that two similar weaves colliding automatically causes the other to shatter or dissipate, but rather it becomes more of a shoving match, unless there is a specific weave designed to actually shatter or sever another weave.

 

Think of it in terms of a sword fight.  It's generally easier to for the man with his sword already drawn to quickly kill or subdue the other who hasn't drawn his sword yet.  But even if the defender is a much lesser or weaker swordsman, if he already has his sword drawn, it will be exponentially more difficult for the attacker to make a quick kill.  In this case it will simply come down to the attacker wearing down the opponent before winning (or placing the shield.)

 

Now assuming both swordsmen are of equal physical strength (Nyn vs. Moggy,) they can beat at each other until both are completely exhausted without causing any real damage, even if one is constantly on the offensive and the other is always defending or blocking attacks.  All either side needs is one slight advantage, a distraction, an unexpected attack or dodge, to get the upper hand and score a debilitating strike or disarm the other.  Both are already armed (channeling) but there is still opportunity to score the winning strike, if done correctly.

 

It basically comes down to a combination of strength in the power, skill in the power, a little dash cunning, and a healthy dose of luck.  Kind of like a deadly game of chess.

[Taura-Tierno]

Embracing saidar, she [Nynaeve] slammed a shield between Elayne and the Source. Or rather, she tried to. Shielding someone who already held the Power was not easy even when you were stronger. Once, as a girl, she had swung Master Luhhan's hammer against his anvil as hard as she could, and the shiver of it ran all the way to her toes. This was about twice that. "Love of the LIght, Elayne, are you drunk?"

The glow around the Domani woman [Elayne disguised] faded away, and so did the Domani woman.

 

- A Crown of Swords, Swovan Night

 

Nynaeve, despite being stronger, could not shield Elayne while she was holding the Power. Which should mean that two people of equal strength would not be able to shield each other, without breaking the other's concentration.

 

Besides, trying to shield someone who held the Power was chancy at best and futile at worst, unless you were very much stronger than they - sometimes if you were - and Talaan matched her as closely as made no difference.

 

- Winter's Heart, Ideas of Importance

 

Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve.

 

The knife-sharp shield that Egweene had used to still Amico Nagoyin sprang into being, more weapon than shield, lashed at Moghedien - and was blocked, woven Spirit straining against woven Spirit, just short of severing Moghedien from the Source forever.

/.../

Holding off the other woman's [Moghedien] attempt to still her while trying to do the same to her took everything she [Nynaeve] had. /.../ she could not spare enough to light a candle. Moghedien's axe of Spirit waxed and waned in sharpness, but that would not matter if the woman managed to drive it home.

 

So it was not throwing multiple weaves at each other (except a couple before the shielding duel began). It's Spirit against Spirit, and since Moghedien's shield "waxed and waned in sharpness", it would seem that it was not several attempts to shield, but the same one, that was just kept at bay.

 

In the end, Nynaeve won because she physically threw something at Moghedien, which disrupted her concentration and decreased the amount of sadiar she was holding. Like Nynaeve did in one of the examples with Talaan.

 

[Agitel]

There may be a sort of a skill level involved when shielding, too. Shielding someone channeling more of the power might require a 'sharper' axe, or maybe a 'harder' swing, or perhaps a more 'well-placed' shot.

[acerbus80]

So it was not throwing multiple weaves at each other (except a couple before the shielding duel began).

 

I stand corrected.

[Taura-Tierno]

Weaving a shield of Spirit, Moiraine hurled it at Merean with e very shred of the Power in her, hoping against hope to cut the woman off from the Source. The shield struck and splintered. Merean was too strong, drawing too near her capacity. /../

 

In horror Moiraine realized that Merean might have sufficient strength remaining to shield her even while she was embracing as much of saidar as she could.

 

- New Spring, An Answer

 

The shield splinters when it strikes Merean, and Moiraine only considers that Merean might be strong enough to shield her - she does not think anything about any particular skill with shielding. Except for Berowing being able to hold a shield on Nynaeve, I don't recall reading anything about talents with creating shields - and we know that holding a shield is much different from actually shielding someone.

 

The only theory I can come up with is that Jordan changed how shielding works somewhere throughout the books. I don't really like that theory, so I hoped that someone might have a better one ^^

[The Fisher King]

The act of actual ''Shielding'' when employed by an Aes Sedai is actually fairly similar to just a 'Blocking Mechanism' similar to any number of Ter'an'greal.

 

Example:

 

Cadusane Sedai is Shielding...Then, Nynaeve attempts to Channel at Cadusane.

 

What happens is, the Weaves and Flows of the Power that are being Channeled by Nynaeve will Disolve and Unravel when encountering Cadusane's Shield.

 

Think of it very akin to how Cauthon's Foxhead Medallion works.

 

Thats pretty much the lowdown on Shielding.

 

 

Fish

[Cillian]

The act of actual ''Shielding'' when employed by an Aes Sedai is actually fairly similar to just a 'Blocking Mechanism' similar to any number of Ter'an'greal.

 

Example:

 

Cadusane Sedai is Shielding...Then, Nynaeve attempts to Channel at Cadusane.

 

What happens is, the Weaves and Flows of the Power that is being Channeled by Nynaeve will Disolve and Unravel when encountering Cadusane's Shield.

 

Think of it very akin to how Cauthon's Foxhead Medallion works.

 

Thats pretty much the lowdown on Shielding.

 

 

Fish

 

Uh, no it's not. When you're shielded you can't touch the source = you can't channel the source.

[The Fisher King]

The word used in the title of this thread by the original poster refers to the act of 'Shielding' not creating a 'Shield to be held in place, similar to what Moiraine did in EOTW.'

 

My analogy holds.

 

 

Read EOTW...around the Shadar Logoth parts...

 

 

Fish

[Nightstrike]

About the act of shielding someone:

-It's hard to shield someone that isn't much weaker than yourself, if they are prepared and touching the Source already.

-If two channelers are pretty close in strength, then the outcome is VERY uncertain.

-There could be Wards and/or ter'angreal?

-Channeling actively probably makes it even harder to be shielded than someone just touching the Source. A thick moving flow of OP is what I imagine...

-Angreal makes any flow thicker, and harder to cut. Graendal at the cleansing...

-Shielding someone of the other gender is probably harder and more depending on skill.

 

 

The shield splinters when it strikes Merean, and Moiraine only considers that Merean might be strong enough to shield her - she does not think anything about any particular skill with shielding.

I believe Merean was actively channeling at the time. Merean was stronger than Moiraine, as well as more experienced. Moghedien would have beaten Nynaeve as well. Both Nynaeve and Moiraine managed to think outside the box.

 

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

About the act of shielding someone:

-It's hard to shield someone that isn't much weaker than yourself, if they are prepared and touching the Source already.

-If two channelers are pretty close in strength, then the outcome is VERY uncertain.

-There could be Wards and/or ter'angreal?

-Channeling actively probably makes it even harder to be shielded than someone just touching the Source. A thick moving flow of OP is what I imagine...

-Angreal makes any flow thicker, and harder to cut. Graendal at the cleansing...

-Shielding someone of the other gender is probably harder and more depending on skill.

 

 

The shield splinters when it strikes Merean, and Moiraine only considers that Merean might be strong enough to shield her - she does not think anything about any particular skill with shielding.

I believe Merean was actively channeling at the time. Merean was stronger than Moiraine, as well as more experienced. Moghedien would have beaten Nynaeve as well. Both Nynaeve and Moiraine managed to think outside the box.

 

Yes, but why didn't Moghedien let Nynaeve's shield "splinter"? It makes no sense to me why a Forsaken, who should be very well aware that two people of the same strength cannot shield each other, would attempt to keep a shield away with Spirit. I also refer back to my quote of Nynaeve trying to shield Elayne - we know that Nynaeve is stronger, but obviously not enough, when Elayne is holding the One Power.

 

 

 

The act of actual ''Shielding'' when employed by an Aes Sedai is actually fairly similar to just a 'Blocking Mechanism' similar to any number of Ter'an'greal.

 

Example:

 

Cadusane Sedai is Shielding...Then, Nynaeve attempts to Channel at Cadusane.

 

What happens is, the Weaves and Flows of the Power that are being Channeled by Nynaeve will Disolve and Unravel when encountering Cadusane's Shield.

 

Think of it very akin to how Cauthon's Foxhead Medallion works.

 

Thats pretty much the lowdown on Shielding.

 

I'm sorry if you misinterpreted the topic ("shielding" is an ambiguous word), but if you read the post, it's quite clear what that I'm talking about shielding someone from the True Source, not creating some sort of anti-Power shield that protects from attacks like the ter'angreal do (if that's even possible).

 

[Nightstrike]

Yes, but why didn't Moghedien let Nynaeve's shield "splinter"? It makes no sense to me why a Forsaken, who should be very well aware that two people of the same strength cannot shield each other, would attempt to keep a shield away with Spirit. I also refer back to my quote of Nynaeve trying to shield Elayne - we know that Nynaeve is stronger, but obviously not enough, when Elayne is holding the One Power.

They  (Moggy & Nynaeve) were fighting like swordsmen. Could it be that Elayne had reversed her channeling, so that Nynaeve couldn't see which flow to cut? Trying to cut her connection to the Source, but missing and cutting into the other one instead. Also, I think there might be some chance of success - provided the cut comes down sharp enough and at the right angle. If not, then the shield might "splinter". Maybe?

 

A shield is probably "hard like the edge of a sword". And a flow is probably "moving". That's how I imagine it...

Cutting into something that is moving must be difficult. Maybe you got to do it exactly right?

 

Egwene stilled one Black Ajah member just by making her shield sharper. So maybe Nynaeve didn't go to the fullest extreme. Not wanting to risk accidentally stilling Elayne?

 

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

They  (Moggy & Nynaeve) were fighting like swordsmen. Could it be that Elayne had reversed her channeling, so that Nynaeve couldn't see which flow to cut? Trying to cut her connection to the Source, but missing and cutting into the other one instead. Also, I think there might be some chance of success - provided the cut comes down sharp enough and at the right angle. If not, then the shield might "splinter". Maybe?

 

This is from just a paragraph prior to my previous quote with Nynaeve and Elayne:

 

This time, Nyaeve saw the glow around Elayne /../ Seeing the flows being woven about herself did not tell her what image Elayne gave her, of course.

 

It's when Elayne gives Nynaeve a disguise she doesn't like, which makes her angry ... and makes her attempt the shielding :P

 

 

A shield is probably "hard like the edge of a sword". And a flow is probably "moving". That's how I imagine it...

Cutting into something that is moving must be difficult. Maybe you got to do it exactly right?

 

A flow, yes, although I don't think we've seen anyone "miss" when trying to cut a flow. But I agree that it should be possible, if your aim is off. However, a person's connection with the Source, which a shield would be directed at, should be pretty constant, especially if the person isn't running around like crazy.

 

[Nightstrike]

Maybe some people who had their attempts "rebounding" or "splintering" actually had a tiny chance of success - if the angle+force+sharpness had been exactly right? So they actually missed something in their aim? Something very hard to achieve?

 

This time, Nyaeve saw the glow around Elayne /../ Seeing the flows being woven about herself did not tell her what image Elayne gave her, of course.

It's when Elayne gives Nynaeve a disguise she doesn't like, which makes her angry ... and makes her attempt the shielding

I agree, that sounds a bit strange... But they couldn't walk around Ebou Dar with their weaves clearly visible, could they? Maybe RJ slipt up when he said Nynaeve could see the flows? Or, maybe they can be woven, and then reversed/inverted?

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

No, no, in that scene they were alone (it's the one where Birgitte is drunk and Elayne's affected), and Nynaeve sees the glow disappear around Elayne. But when they're in public, they do invert their weaves after they've woven them.

[Mat Cauthon]

For Moghedien, I doubt she expected Nynaeve to be as strong as herself which surprised her.  Then she probably was too proud to give up in the fight over the shielding as to not be outdone by a "so-called" (not even) Aes Sedai child that knows nothing.

[Taura-Tierno]

So Nynaeve didn't dare risk it because she was like "OMG a forsaken, she's all-powerful and will overwhelm me!" and Moghedien didn't let the shield splinter because of pride? I suppose that might be the case. Beats my theory, at least :P

[Agitel]

Or maybe, as has been said, it's not impossible to shield someone of equal strength.

 

More difficult? Definitely. Particularly for someone as untrained as a few Accepted who've been in training for less than two years.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, untrained. And that Egwene accidentally stilled one Black Ajah member just by making her shield sharper (and using more force, I believe). So maybe Nynaeve didn't try as hard as she possibly could?

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

I suppose that's possible, but I've always been extremely certain that you cannot shield someone unless you're much stronger, as in that it's impossible. But I won't claim that it's impossible until I've found a quote, unless it's just something I've imagined :P

[Talmanes]

Once again the member of the kin is able to hold a shield on both Elayne and Nynaeve at the same time even though she was extremely weak.

[Impressive Bosom]

Putting a shield on someone NOT holding the OP is relatively easy and can be done by someone of any strength to someone of any strength.

 

Holding a shield on someone already shielded is relatively easy, though it is possible for someone of significantly greater power (and/or knowledge) to break a shield already in place on them. Most could not.

 

Putting a shield on someone already holding the OP requires that the shielder be of significantly greater power (and/or knowledge) than the person to be shielded. Once that shield is in place, see above.

 

Aes Sedai only know what they know about shielding and anything they say or think about it must be assumed to be the limits of their knowledge. That information may be incomplete or even wrong when compared to the greater knowledge of the Forsaken.

 

Shielding and Stilling are completely different things. Completely. A number of the quotes and instances mentioned above involve one woman attempting to still/sever another from the source, not merely temporarily shield them from it. Shields are like valves, they open and close, but do nothing directly to the pipe nor the water flowing throw it. Most often it will be completely closed though if you remember Asmodean had a shield placed on him that allowed for a trickle of power (by Lanfear, I believe, in order to be able to instruct Rand). Stilling is more akin to the pipe itself being removed completely.

[Nightstrike]

Shielding and Stilling are completely different things. Completely. A number of the quotes and instances mentioned above involve one woman attempting to still/sever another from the source, not merely temporarily shield them from it.

Egwene accidentally severed one BA by just making her attempted shield sharper+also slamming it down harder. So, intentional severing can indeed be done some other way, but it can also be done like Egwene did it. That is, by cutting off someone already channeling with something very much like an ordinary shield.

 

I think intentional stilling is done when the victim isn't even embracing the Source?

 

[Taura-Tierno]

Shielding and Stilling are completely different things. Completely. A number of the quotes and instances mentioned above involve one woman attempting to still/sever another from the source, not merely temporarily shield them from it. Shields are like valves, they open and close, but do nothing directly to the pipe nor the water flowing throw it. Most often it will be completely closed though if you remember Asmodean had a shield placed on him that allowed for a trickle of power (by Lanfear, I believe, in order to be able to instruct Rand). Stilling is more akin to the pipe itself being removed completely.

 

Nynaeve and Moghedien both tried to still one another - but the shields' edges "waxed and waned" between razor sharp and dull. When Nynaeve manage to put her shield on Moghedien, she remarks that it was a pity that it hadn't been a stilling, only a shielding, probably because in that moment, her shield was dull, and not razor sharp.

 

Rand stilled several women during Dumais Wells, but he shielded several as well. Egwene used a shield with a razor sharp edge to still Amico. Doesn't those instances imply that the two are really very similar? That the same weave is used, but a razor sharp weave severs, a dull weave shields? It seems like something the Aes Sedai would know, but something Egwene & Nynaeve did not, since they're education was incomplete. The reason Egwene used her razor sharp weave was because she felt that was necessary to shield someone already holding the One Power - not because she knew that it was.