Who Are The Best 'Advisers' in Wot?-And, Ever Notice, They're *Never* WRONG lol?

[The Fisher King]

Well, this is a Spin-Off Topic/Thread from something I read in a Thread by ''Unassigned'' where he talks about Elayne Trakand and it made me fondly thing about how her parts in the later books are ones I like mainly because they gives us exposure to Elayne's Adviser named Dylin Damodred and Dylin is one of my Fave 'Side-Characters'!!! ... She has a Dry Personality but I think shes cool and she ALWAYS gives Elayne really Good Advice. ... It made think about the ''Adviser-Role'' certain characters play and how I think ALL of them are great. I can't remember an Adviser ever giving bad advice lol!!! ...... Lets Look at Them ....

 

I Will List Characters I Think Are Intended as ''Advisers'' and Lets Grade Their Advice! :)

 

1 Rhuarc...Rand's Aiel Adviser...Steady as they come. Good and Wise Man.

 

2 Dylin Damodred...Elayne Trakand's Adviser...Elayne owes this woman her throne.

 

3 Moiraine Damodred - I'd give her a 'B+'...Her main weakness, imo, was impatience.

 

4 Davram Bashere - Militarily, Rand would have been wiped out about a Half-Dozen times by now without this man.

 

5 Cadsuane Sedai...Very Debatable...I have been a Backer of hers, but she has seemed to be gradually losing her control as later books progress...Her arrogance is also very off-putting to Rand.

 

 

Fish

 

 

[Zidel333]

Isn't Dylin of House Taravin? Otherwise, great list.

 

[Vulgir]

As well

 

Tam Al'Thor

 

 

Thomdril Merrilin - Tom

 

Lini

 

Lan

 

 

Alot of these people just give advice, may not be considered advisors, but its some of the best advice in the books.

 

 

Moiriane I find to be very debatable, since for a long time she tried to guide rand to what she thought was best instead of let him do his own thing.

[The Fisher King]

Alot  of interesting points, Vulgir - Thanks!!!

 

I debated Moir too but I think it showed very well of her that she DID (eventually) learn (Will Cadsuane ever?) to not try and CONTROL Rand...Sadly, she learned this about 2 seconds before getting Toasted by The Daughter of The Night and The Finns. ... I often wonder how differently The Dragon Reborn's path may have gone if Moiraine Damodred and stayed by his side...

 

I agree about Thom...all his sad experiences in life make him a man to listen to and heed. Ditto for Tam.

 

Not sure how 'Wise' Lini is, but shes very very funny!

 

...I think Dylin is a Trakand...My Mistake above.

 

 

Fish

[Vulgir]

Lady Dyelin of House Taravin

 

Lini is awesome. She takes the Chin raisers, and the Sniffers of the book and turns them over her Knee

 

 

[The Fisher King]

Is it Taravin? Coolness - NOT my specialty lol (keeping the Houses straight - my memory suhx ha ha).

 

I like Lini...I think shes funny...I guess her advise is pretty good about day-to-day stuff actually, youre right.

 

On a military scale, I think Davram has been the best adviser in the series (to rand)... Mat and Rodel may be better Generals, but they haven't really been 'advising' folks.

 

I really also think it gets un-deservedly overlooked the GREAT job Moiraine did in books 3 - 5 as Rand's POLITICAL Adviser...She was spot on.

 

 

Fish

[Vulgir]

Political advisor? uhh No.

 

Thom was behind all the magic in the Stone, and then Rand comments on Elaynes advice. Then they go to the waste, where theres no politics, then they come back and she goes to Finnland. Wheres the political help?

[The Fisher King]

The Truth Is:

 

When it came to the many petty schemes against Rand among the Cairhein and in the Stone of Tear during books 3-5, Moiraine was Pure OWNAGE lol.

 

She kicked their buts. Rand would have been assasinated about three pages into Book 4 if not for her lol.

 

Thom wasn't even there most that time. Moiraine shipped him off to Tanchico with the girls early in Book 4 ... Now, to be fair, Thom DID help with Tedosian's nonsense early in Book 4, but that was his one and only contribuion to Rand during that time.

 

 

Fish

[Eht Slat Meit]

Thom wasn't even there most that time. Moiraine shipped him off to Tanchico with the girls early in Book 4 ... Now, to be fair, Thom DID help with Tedosian's nonsense early in Book 4, but that was his one and only contribuion to Rand during that time.

 

Fish

 

To be totally fair to Thom, getting shipped off to Tanchico with the girls was a deliberate Daes-block by Moiraine to stop his continued influence of Rand. Gray Fox or no, he got completely outmaneuvered.

[The Fisher King]

Eht Slat Meit,

 

Sadly, I must disagree. I truly don't think The Grey Fox was outmanuevered at all by Moiraine Damodred in TSR, when she shipped him off to Tanchico with The Super Girls so that she could cut his Ties of Influence to Rand.

 

The truth is, Moiraine Sedai left the choice to Thomdril. He wasn't outmanuevered - he simply chose a path that meant more to him that Rand did, fond though he was of Rand.

 

It meant EVERYTHING to him to obtain revenge against the Red Aes Sedai that hurt his nephew Owyn. He also knew that without him, The Girls wouldn't stand a chance on their own (or so he believed, he may have beenunderestimating them).

 

Moiraine didn't force him into leaving, he just made a choice that meant alot to him - more even that Rand did to him.

 

 

Fish

[Vulgir]

You keep saying books 3-5 but as i stated before what polotics occure in 4-5 after they leave the stone? There is no Political moving in book 3.

 

Thoms not even there? Rand and Moiraine Leave Tear just after Thom does. Infact Rand is already starting to push Moiraine away at this point, and confide nothing in her, case in point she doenst know they are going to the waste. In fact she wants him to attack Illain and Sammael. So her advice is in direct opposition with what Rand does.

 

The reason you Dont see Thom as stated is because hes with the servants and various other people playing The Game of Houses. Hes purposely staying in the shadows away from direct contact with Rand so he can be seen as a simple Gleeman with no other affiliation. Moiraine even states that she is impressed with what he's done, and she cant figure out how hes sending the information to rand. No one, No one can contend with Thom in the game of houses, cept for maybe Rand by not playing it.

 

- Thom forges a note from High Lord Carleon to Lady Alteima. He is deeply immersed in the Game of Houses to help Rand. Mat confides in him and he convinces Mat to stay for another day. (TSR,Ch4)

-Thom leaves a note for Rand with information about High Lords Carleon and Tedosian. (TSR,Ch8)

-High Lord Carleon is "accidentally" killed by Tedosian while they are hunting. Then Lady Alteima poisons her husband. (TSR,Ch17)

 

# Thom continues to provide information to Rand that helps him in his dealings with the High Lords. (TSR,Ch9)

 

And what assasination Attempt are you talking about? The one Thom helps with?

 

You never provide anything to support what your saying just make stuff up all the time, or say something and provide nothing else

 

 

[lsm]

there are many rand POVs where he is thankful for moiraine's teaching as he deals with cairhien nobility, and other great games of houses areas

[Eht Slat Meit]

Eht Slat Meit,

 

The truth is, Moiraine Sedai left the choice to Thomdril. He wasn't outmanuevered - he simply chose a path that meant more to him that Rand did, fond though he was of Rand.

 

It meant EVERYTHING to him to obtain revenge against the Red Aes Sedai that hurt his nephew Owyn. He also knew that without him, The Girls wouldn't stand a chance on their own (or so he believed, he may have beenunderestimating them).

 

Moiraine didn't force him into leaving, he just made a choice that meant alot to him - more even that Rand did to him.

 

Fish

 

Honestly, I think you're underestimating the undercurrents and subtleties of the Game of Houses. Only the most base and thuggish of players would treat the GoH as a thing to brute force someone into doing what they want. Blackmail's far more subtle, and emotional blackmail is even more effective. That choice didn't just mean a lot to Thom, that choice defined who he was and why he was helping Rand. Because of her skill in the Game and awareness of the relevant information, she very well knew that. Nor does the ... play of the game... necessarily have to be bad to the person on the receiving end.

 

The "choice" existed solely to benefit Moiraine's agenda - specifically to remove a highly effective counter-influence in Thom from Rand's sphere. Strikes me as the soul of the Game, right there. Blue Sedai to Dragon's Gray Fox at E4, remove piece from board.

[Vulgir]

there are many rand POVs where he is thankful for moiraine's teaching as he deals with cairhien nobility, and other great games of houses areas

 

provide a quote, or example, from what i recall he inst thankfull until after shes gone, and that teaching comes in the Aeil Waste on the trip to Caihrien, after her trip to Ruhdien when she knows she doesnt have alot of time left not in Tear itself.

 

I'm stating the point that The Fisher King says she really helped him in Tear, with the nobles. When it is evident that Thom was the one truly helping him at that point in time

[The Fisher King]

Ok, Vulgir...

 

The next time you say something that has not been spelled out with 100% certified confirmation within the text or by sworn word of Jordan or Sanderson, I can just say you make stuff up and don't provide evidence??? Cool. Thats a deal.

 

So please don't ever say that you feel that Moridin is Ishmael, Noal is Jain, Moridin was The Guy in book 7 that saves Rand in Shadar Logoth, etc etc - that sorta thing...I can get on you about stating things that we haven't been given ''Evidence'' for???

 

Do you see my point man? My point is, with what I just said in the above 2 paragraphs and your taking me to task for saying things I don't have evidence for, well...we're talking about the saaaaaaame thing, brother, the saaaaaame thing. lol.

 

 

Oh, and please don't say to me its different because in THOSE cases we have been given plenty of *Reason* to make those conclusions...because, I have read the books alo too and I feel that the things I say we have been given lots of reason enough to believe the things I say I believe too - make sense?

 

 

Fish

[Vulgir]

No, we're not.

 

Im providing evidence. Its possible to come to conclusions about things in the text that arent specifically spelled out, but you need to use reason, and information from the text to deduce the end.

 

You do this often, make conclusions without any evidence. You did it when u said Lanfears belt was a Ter'Angreal, and your doing it now by saying Moiraine did more to help Rand in the Stone Politically then Tom. You could be right, I'm not perfect and though i do post things that are mistakes, i try to look for evidence and make sure they aren't. Take 10 minutes look at Encyclopaedia wot- or the the text come up with something to prove your point, like anyone should.

 

You do not do this. There is a difference from making a mistake and what your doing. As well as drawing conclusions from things that arent spelled out in the text. Your claiming that I'm wrong, and that your right and providing no evidence for this.

 

Give me a page number, a specific example (not one you make up), anything to support your arguement other than just Saying what you think, because as far as it looks you're wrong. And if you cant well too bad, its not cause  thats what happened and its not it in the text, its because your wrong.

 

Theres a difference from drawing conclusions from the text, that isnt completely spelled out, and making statements that are completely wrong.

[The Fisher King]

Im not going ot argue that last post of yours too much, Vulgir, bc, alot of it was right.

 

I offer alot of opinions, beliefs, theories, speculations etc about things i THINK about the series. I thought that was the fun of it and the point of a Discussion Board?

 

When did it become about researching quotes and providing evidience.

 

This isn't court. Also, you can't find me one quote where I say ''This is a FACT.''

 

Is it not ok for me to share beliefs and opinions and theories of mine?

 

Also, as I have posted in the other thread, when it comes to requests for ''evidence/quotes'' etc:

 

I have never been to Florida, but I KNOW that a city called ''Miami'' is there...I do not know President Obama or his Generals but I would bet my life that The U.S.A. will NOT declare war on Canada tomorrow...I have never read textual ''proof/evidence'' that Tywin Lannister is the man behind the RW but I will GUARANTEE it based on the implications made in the text and the context clues dropped...and I have never been to China but I will bet you my house they make tea there...It has  never been SAID in the text that Moridin was the man in SL in book 7 but I will PROMISE you that he was...do you see the point I am going for here? Maybe we should all take a step back here with demands for ''proof'' and ''in-text evidence'' now and then and just use some common sense...Do you really need to have everything spelled out for you or to be hit over the head with everything before you will admit a probable conclusion? I think the examples I just listed probably prove that point pretty darn well lol!!! - Yeah, I think I just made my case pretty lock-solid, no?

 

 

Oh, and also, I can be wrong too. ALOT. But i do ENJOY offering opinions and theories and stuff. Didn't mean to pisss you off.

 

 

Fish

 

 

 

 

 

[Vulgir]

Rediculous.

 

I offer alot of opinions, beliefs, theories, speculations etc about things i THINK about the series

Thats fine offer up your thoughts. But its absolute garbage that without any evidence other than "I feel" that you would dare say someone else is wrong.

 

The statements i have herd from you are constantly wrong, and you do not offer them up as opinion but debate them as what is true. An opinion is one thing a statement like "Lanfears Belt is a Ter'Angreal" is completely wrong. Wrong information is fine when its a mistake, but when someone points out that your wrong, and you claim your not, (when you clearley are) that ruins things.

 

Since you dont see what you do as rediculous look at it like this. When you post your opinion post what makes you feel that way. Use examples of why you think the way you do. Otherwise your just posting worthless information, and should supply i giant sign in each of your posts that says THIS IS COMPLETELY WRONG.

 

As for your remark on intuition, well thats fine, except that there is evidence that MOrridin is Ishy, similarities that can be drawn, basically people use their head and think this fact and that fact suggest this. You dont do that. Its like you dont get it at all.  

 

I will be more than happy to accept any of yoru statements. But if there is no evidence, or ur just too lazy to prove your own point, then hell yes im gonna say your wrong.

 

Just because you think something, Doesnt make it right.

 

 

Your basically saying, I can say anthing no matter how wrong it is, and people should say im right. Your not.

[The Fisher King]

*Shakes Head* - I just can't get through to you. It's sad, the amount of Pot calling Kettle black here...I will just say, that, as you obviously didn't read the following, I will repost it one last time, as, if you DO read it, it pretty much counters all of your statements.

 

I have never been to Florida, but I KNOW that a city called ''Miami'' is there...I do not know President Obama or his Generals but I would bet my life that The U.S.A. will NOT declare war on Canada tomorrow...I have never read textual ''proof/evidence'' that Tywin Lannister is the man behind the RW but I will GUARANTEE it based on the implications made in the text and the context clues dropped...and I have never been to China but I will bet you my house they make tea there...It has  never been SAID in the text that Moridin was the man in SL in book 7 but I will PROMISE you that he was...do you see the point I am going for here? Maybe we should all take a step back here with demands for ''proof'' and ''in-text evidence'' now and then and just use some common sense...Do you really need to have everything spelled out for you or to be hit over the head with everything before you will admit a probable conclusion? I think the examples I just listed probably prove that point pretty darn well lol!!! - Yeah, I think I just made my case pretty lock-solid, no?

 

Do you not understand ANY of that? Clever though it may be, it is, more importantly, what we call a lock-solid argument that compares apples to apples and rests on a foundation of Logic...maybe thats what bothers you about it?

 

 

If so, hey man, thats cool...I ain't hear to fight lol. :)

 

 

Fish

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

I have never been to Florida, but I KNOW that a city called ''Miami'' is there...I do not know President Obama or his Generals but I would bet my life that The U.S.A. will NOT declare war on Canada tomorrow...I have never read textual ''proof/evidence'' that Tywin Lannister is the man behind the RW but I will GUARANTEE it based on the implications made in the text and the context clues dropped...and I have never been to China but I will bet you my house they make tea there...It has  never been SAID in the text that Moridin was the man in SL in book 7 but I will PROMISE you that he was...do you see the point I am going for here? Maybe we should all take a step back here with demands for ''proof'' and ''in-text evidence'' now and then and just use some common sense...Do you really need to have everything spelled out for you or to be hit over the head with everything before you will admit a probable conclusion? I think the examples I just listed probably prove that point pretty darn well lol!!! - Yeah, I think I just made my case pretty lock-solid, no?

 

Do you not understand ANY of that? Clever though it may be, it is, more importantly, what we call a lock-solid argument that compares apples to apples and rests on a foundation of Logic...maybe thats what bothers you about it?

 

You know, I've seen you post this repeatedly, and I'm going to point out the lack of relevance here. All of those things you mention, the existence of Miami, the lack of invasion of Canada, etc... all of that probability rests on a great body of evidence to support the conclusion. As such, they all have extremely high degrees of probability.

 

An unsourced statement of opinion on a book, on the other hand, has such a small body of evidence to back it that comparing the two can't be done. It's giving (extremely) undue weight to your claims. In particular, I believe that's referred to as a logical fallacy known as 'argumentum ad populum' an appeal to the authority of the majority opinion. So a lot of people believe it's true. Does that make it true? Of course not. If you have nothing more than your speculation as probability, then you have no argument.

 

I'm not weighing in on this argument because it's a separate issue, but that text you've been repeating is adds nothing to the conversation.

[Vulgir]

.I will GUARANTEE it based on the implications made in the text and the context clues dropped

Thats exactly what you should do, but provide what these implications are, name them, point them out, give me the reason you feel the way you do. But your do not.

 

 

It has  never been SAID in the text that Moridin was the man in SL in book 7 but I will PROMISE you that he was...do you see the point I am going for here? Maybe we should all take a step back here with demands for ''proof'' and ''in-text evidence'' now and then and just use some common sense...Do you really need to have everything spelled out for you or to be hit over the head with everything before you will admit a probable conclusion?

 

Your contradicting yourself here with what you stated above.  Implications from the text are evidence.

 

I think the examples I just listed probably prove that point pretty darn well lol!!! - Yeah, I think I just made my case pretty lock-solid, no? 

 

No they don't you just completely contradicted yourself by saying impplications in the text arent evidence. They are as to why you think what you think, they are perhaps not conclusive excact evidence but they support what your saying, or why you think the way you do. Im not asking for you to say where it says something directly, just what makes you feel the way you do. You do not do this as i have repedeatly stated.

 

 

[Muad Cheade]

provide a quote, or example, from what i recall he inst thankfull until after shes gone,

When Rand deals with the Tairen and Cairhienin nobility after the Second Battle of Cairhien (tFoH), he mentally thanks Moiraine for helping him decide his next moves.

[Vulgir]

provide a quote, or example, from what i recall he inst thankfull until after shes gone,

When Rand deals with the Tairen and Cairhienin nobility after the Second Battle of Cairhien (tFoH), he mentally thanks Moiraine for helping him decide his next moves.

 

Perfect!. I'm wrong and I'm happy because someone used actual proof.

 

Though as you can see, FisherKing, your statement of her advisory compaired to Thom's while in Tear is still unproven, something like this would be a good example of how to post.

[kennedy798]

A tad off topic guys i think...

 

I think Lan is VERY influential in the First few books to Rand. When he meets The Amyrlin for the first time... I think Lan sees him as a bit of himself in the first few books. A man destined to fight the shadow when he was born until the shadow is either defeated or he is dead. Lans advice is followed in the books quite a bit.

 

Min is influential too. She always gives him good advice, since she wants him to survive.

 

Gareth Bryne was a great Advisor for Morgase in Andor, hence his removal by Gabriel.

 

Tam, Fail, and Abel for Perrin, along with Gaul and Loial.

 

 

[The Fisher King]

You know, I actuall do not think that Moiraine was very helpful to Rand politically, but, I do believe that she assisted him greatly with the Game of Houses.

 

.... J/K!!! ;)

 

sorry, couldn't resist lol.

 

 

Fish