Personal opinions of tWoT series. *warning - highly negative*

[Vulgir]

;D to everything Mr. Ares just said.

[OptimusPrime]

I find recently that Wheel of Time takes some effort to read. I have TGS, yet every time I look at it I sigh. Reading it isnt quite as bad but I am finding the series in general hard to give a crap about these days. Too much waiting involved.

 

Its not that the story overall is too dragged on for me, its just.... You wait for a character, and he doesnt show up. You wait for an event, and it lacks suspense. You wait for it to grab you... and it just doesnt.

 

I never thought I would say this, but the series feels like its going downhill, and I cant help but think it is TGS making me change my mind.

 

;D to everything Mr. Ares just said.

 

Okay that is definitely something brown I see on your nose.

[Zidel333]

;D to everything Mr. Ares just said.

 

Okay that is definitely something brown I see on your nose.

 

 

LMAFO. Glad someone else had the same thought I did....

[OptimusPrime]

;D to everything Mr. Ares just said.

 

Okay that is definitely something brown I see on your nose.

 

LMAFO. Glad someone else had the same thought I did....

 

Well, theres winning a debate and being on the winning side.

 

PS This quoting system is sentient.

[Vulgir]

;D to everything Mr. Ares just said.

 

Okay that is definitely something brown I see on your nose.

 

LMAFO. Glad someone else had the same thought I did....

 

 

Well, theres winning a debate and being on the winning side.

 

PS This quoting system is sentient.

 

PHAW!

[Spilt-pea Soup]

 

 

I never thought I would say this, but the series feels like its going downhill, and I cant help but think it is TGS making me change my mind.

 

 

 

You really should give tGS a read.  I entirely skipped Crossroads of Twilight and only read about half the prologue of Knife of Dreams.  TGS is brilliant in that you can jump right in, without doing a re-read (even without having real *all* the books) and feel perfectly at ease.  I also think BS has managed to infuse the series with the sense of wonder that was there in the beginning but lost as it got slogged in certain plotlines.  Give it a try--I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.  Very satisfying, and in some ways, better than RJ's books.

[unassigned]

And if she did have such an angreal...since the fact was conveniently omitted I tend to see the flaw in the scene rather than what I want to see.

We have been told, in text, that she has an angreal. So the flaw lies in you, not the scene.

 

Keyword. "such". You took that statement out of context friend.  :-\

 

Not disputing the fact that she has an angreal, I am disputing the strength of the angreal in question. The strength of it is never mentioned and that is my point. Let me put it this way. Egwene and Elayne are stronger than Cadsuane, the two strongest Aes Sedai next to Nynaeve in a thousand years, and my personal view of the strength of the characters in the series in the One Power says that Egwene or Elayne cannot stand against the Forsaken even with angreal. And if Egwene and Elayne cannot, Cadsuane hasn't a hope in hell.

 

Nynaeve could match Moghedien (not openly stated as far as I know but my personal take on it based upon Moghedien's actions both in general and toward the other Forsaken - notably Rahvin...she implies a level of subservience to him - give me the view that she is the weakest of the Forsaken. And being a woman, in the Power, that's by a fair stretch.) in raw strength. So I personally don't believe Elayne or Egwene could match Moghedien with an angreal ( based upon everything I have read in the series about angreal initial strength in the Power is important for the increased amount of the Power the angreal would provide to be noteworthy - again, perhaps this is just my personal take. I am unsure.). Perhaps that is just my personal view since much on the aspects of strength in various characters was not entirely set in stone but from the events in the series, the conversations, the battles, etc, this is how I see it.

 

"Egwene is at least as strong as Elayne...Nynaeve...Once she gains conscious control of what she does now...she will be as strong as any in Tar Valon. With training she will shine like a bonfire beside the candles of Elayne and Egwene" - Moiraine to Siuan

 

[edit] *cringes* @ the moderator edits in my original post. I suppose I got most of points across but it isn't as polished as originally.

[Diederichos]

You're comparing Cadsuane's skill and experience to Egwene and Elayne? The only equal to Cad out of the current Aes Sedai would be Nynaeve and that only because of her immense strength advantage and because of the experience gained in the Moghedien fights.

[unassigned]

I'm comparing raw strength in the Power. Experience in the Power can only take you so far. Example of this, Sorilea teaching Cadsuane the weaves for Traveling without being able to possess the necessary strength to open a gateway.

[csarmi]

and my personal view of the strength of the characters in the series in the One Power says that Egwene or Elayne cannot stand against the Forsaken even with angreal. And if Egwene and Elayne cannot, Cadsuane hasn't a hope in hell.

 

You're very likely wrong.

I have no time to do research, but I think you're highly underestimating angreals, Elayne and Cadsuane.

 

From what I read (in the books and on websites) there are angreals increasing strength greatly, and generally, they aren't just a minor addition. I think it's implied somewhere, that with a not too special angreal you can shield someone who is stronger than you (and shielding someone for sure requires overpowering said person by a lot, most believe that by 66%). Graendal does overpower Cyndane + Moghedien (if I remember correctly) with hers.

 

While it is true that Elayne/Egwene are outshined by Nynaeve (and by a lot), they are quite strong indeed, given their skills, craftiness and fast learning.

 

We are told that Egwene/Elayne are stronger than anyone in the last thousand years, but we have no reason to believe Cadsuane does not come close.

 

Actually, it's much more feasible to read what happens at the cleansing this way: that Cadsuane was able to hold a shield shows how strong she (and her angreal was). BTW, we don't know much about how a shield/defense like that works, how much stronger do you have to be to break it from the distance. Does it require craftiness or skill or sheer power? Etc...

 

There is plenty of room to interpret it correctly. Now YOU instead try to call it BS. I think you just fixed power workings andf angreal mechanics in your mind at some point and when evidence comes and tells you otherwise, you close your eyes.

[Zidel333]

You know...all this tedious discussion of relative strength of characters is grating on my nerves. BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF. FULL STOP. And frankly, it's pissing off everyone involved.

 

So, can we please just drop the subject and actually move back to their thread's original topic? You know, "Personal Opinions of tWoT series".

 

</rant>

[OptimusPrime]

I never thought I would say this, but the series feels like its going downhill, and I cant help but think it is TGS making me change my mind.

 

You really should give tGS a read.  I entirely skipped Crossroads of Twilight and only read about half the prologue of Knife of Dreams.  TGS is brilliant in that you can jump right in, without doing a re-read (even without having real *all* the books) and feel perfectly at ease.  I also think BS has managed to infuse the series with the sense of wonder that was there in the beginning but lost as it got slogged in certain plotlines.  Give it a try--I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.  Very satisfying, and in some ways, better than RJ's books.

 

I was over halfway through the book when I wrote that  :(

[csarmi]

 

So, can we please just drop the subject and actually move back to their thread's original topic? You know, "Personal Opinions of tWoT series".

 

 

We're doing just that, actually.

[Mr Ares]

I'm comparing raw strength in the Power. Experience in the Power can only take you so far. Example of this, Sorilea teaching Cadsuane the weaves for Traveling without being able to possess the necessary strength to open a gateway.

Counter-example: Cyndane v Alivia at the Cleansing. Alivia was stronger, Cyndane had greater knowledge. Raw strength doesn't count for as much as you seem to think. Or how about those times Rand defeats Ishy despite the latter being stronger?

 

And if she did have such an angreal...since the fact was conveniently omitted I tend to see the flaw in the scene rather than what I want to see.

We have been told, in text, that she has an angreal. So the flaw lies in you, not the scene.

Keyword. "such". You took that statement out of context friend.  :-\

Such is not the keyword.

 

Not disputing the fact that she has an angreal, I am disputing the strength of the angreal in question.

Why?

The strength of it is never mentioned and that is my point.

There's no reason why it should be if it is not important. It isn't important. And if we are told she has an angreal, we see her do something assisted by her angreal, then it is reasonable to assume that the angreal was strong enough, unless we have reason to believe it wasn't. Unless you can show it was clearly an authorial cock-up, then accept that the angreal was strong enough, as you have no reason not to.

Let me put it this way. Egwene and Elayne are stronger than Cadsuane, the two strongest Aes Sedai next to Nynaeve in a thousand years, and my personal view of the strength of the characters in the series in the One Power says that Egwene or Elayne cannot stand against the Forsaken even with angreal.

Why? It's not based on anything. Hell, Nynaeve could without an angreal, and the difference between them is not so great. And Caduane was only the last line of defence, after all. The Chosen couldn't commit themselves to attacking her, because Callandor and the circles were attacking them. They had to keep moving. Cadsuane just holds a shield and points. She doesn't need to defeat them, only delay them until Callandor sends a wall of fire their way, or one of the circles shows up to drive them off.

 

Nynaeve could match Moghedien (not openly stated as far as I know but my personal take on it based upon Moghedien's actions both in general and toward the other Forsaken - notably Rahvin...she implies a level of subservience to him - give me the view that she is the weakest of the Forsaken.

A lot of people think that, but there's no reason to. Her subservience is as a result of her being a coward. We are told Aginor is the second strongest man, thus he is stronger than Demandred, yet is still willing to take crap from the weaker man. So a degree of deference from a coward says nothing at all about their respective strengths. She could be stronger than Rahvin, but backs down because she is scared of him.

And being a woman, in the Power, that's by a fair stretch.) in raw strength.

What we have been told is that men are stronger, but women are more dextrous, so there is nothing the strongest man could do that the strongest woman couldn't match. Again, raw strength doesn't count for a whole lot. Moggy, even if she was the weakest, would still have equivalent capabilities to a man a few levels higher than her. So it balances out. And we do not know where she stands in strength, so we do not know where the others stand in relation to the Chosen, and the degree of difference between them all is not that great. Egwene, Elayne or Cadsuane, with even a weak angreal, should be capable of matching a Chosen blow for blow, and Caduane did not have to match a Chosen blow for blow. She could put everything into defence, and leave the offence to others.

So I personally don't believe Elayne or Egwene could match Moghedien with an angreal ( based upon everything I have read in the series about angreal initial strength in the Power is important for the increased amount of the Power the angreal would provide to be noteworthy - again, perhaps this is just my personal take. I am unsure.).

A common view is that angreal multiply strength. If that is so, then twice Nynaeve would be greater than twice Elayne. Or maybe it adds on a fixed degree of strength, so Elayne+20 wouldn't be as strong as Nynaeve+20. Either way, we have little reason to believe in massive strength jumps, and that seems to be exaggeration on the part of characters. Any of the wonder girls or Caduane, with an angreal, should be capable of giving a Chosen a run for his or her money.

 

"Egwene is at least as strong as Elayne...Nynaeve...Once she gains conscious control of what she does now...she will be as strong as any in Tar Valon. With training she will shine like a bonfire beside the candles of Elayne and Egwene" - Moiraine to Siuan

"[Cadsuane] was also the strongest in the Power found for a thousand years or more until the advent of Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene and even they do not far out-step her." ACoS Glossary.

 

You know...all this tedious discussion of relative strength of characters is grating on my nerves. BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF. FULL STOP. And frankly, it's pissing off everyone involved.

 

So, can we please just drop the subject and actually move back to their thread's original topic? You know, "Personal Opinions of tWoT series".

 

</rant>

We do not need your approval to discuss certain opinions.

[Zidel333]

 

So, can we please just drop the subject and actually move back to their thread's original topic? You know, "Personal Opinions of tWoT series".

 

 

We're doing just that, actually.

 

How? The original author had their (fairly length) discussion on what they feel to be the flaws and weaknesses of the series, as an open invitation to critique and have others add their own list. This thread has become nothing more then just an Endless Discussion of Aes Sedai Power. Notice, flaws and weakness of the series as critqued isn't in there.

 

Let's stop hijacking the thread -- because that's what you guys are doing -- and move it elsewhere.

 

 

[Zidel333]

I'm comparing raw strength in the Power. Experience in the Power can only take you so far. Example of this, Sorilea teaching Cadsuane the weaves for Traveling without being able to possess the necessary strength to open a gateway.

Counter-example: Cyndane v Alivia at the Cleansing. Alivia was stronger, Cyndane had greater knowledge. Raw strength doesn't count for as much as you seem to think. Or how about those times Rand defeats Ishy despite the latter being stronger?

 

Actually, it's well established that Rand is and was (as Lews Therin) stronger the Ishy. Not better educated, not more adept then Ishy certainly, but stronger. AFAIK, there is no direct comparison in terms of power levels, that is LTT and Ishy themseleves discussing it, but we do seem some pointed claims by Aginor in TEOTW Ch. 50-51 where he talks about being right behind those 2 in power.

 

There are 3 main facts that indicates LTT/Rand are stronger.

 

1) LLT was appointed Tamyrlin, over everyone else because his strength was greater then everyone else, supplemented by his vast knowledge and successful research (writer of several books, redevelopment of sword fighting), and his success in many previous leadership positions. But once again, his supreme power had some/everything why he was raised.

 

2) Ishy was humbled twice by LTT -- in the Hall of Servants, and at Paarden Disen. Obviously One Power was at the source of this humbling. We do not know if LTT and Ishy squared off alone at Paarden Disen, nor can we confirm that OP was the source of the humbling in the HoS (but it's location would certainly presume so). The main thing is Ishy LOST TWICE. Surely if he was as strong as LTT he would have won at least once.

 

3) It is well established that reincarnations have the same power levels of their past lives. As such Rand = LTT in OP, and Rand/LTT > Isidin.

 

And Mr. Ares, for the love of all that is holy, do not state about this being circumstantial or irrelevant. You'd just be hypocritical because that's all you do in your own posts.

 

And being a woman, in the Power, that's by a fair stretch.)[/i] in raw strength.

What we have been told is that men are stronger, but women are more dextrous, so there is nothing the strongest man could do that the strongest woman couldn't match. Again, raw strength doesn't count for a whole lot. Moggy, even if she was the weakest, would still have equivalent capabilities to a man a few levels higher than her. So it balances out.

 

Where is it stated that the nothing the strongest man could do that the strongest women couldn't match stated? Books and chapter number please because in my 9 years of reading the series I cannot think of a single instance this view is substantiated.

 

What do you mean by dexterity? That women have more complicated Weavings and flows, compared to men's more brute force use of OP? How does that have any effect on one's effective use of OP? Again, books and chapter numbers.

 

Moggy being equivalent to a man a few levels higher? How? When? Prove it.

 

You know...all this tedious discussion of relative strength of characters is grating on my nerves. BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF. FULL STOP. And frankly, it's pissing off everyone involved.

 

So, can we please just drop the subject and actually move back to their thread's original topic? You know, "Personal Opinions of tWoT series".

 

</rant>

 

We do not need your approval to discuss certain opinions.

 

 

One could say the same thing about reading your comments....

[Vulgir]

The fact that LTT Beat Ishy 2 times, or humble him 2 times in the AOL doesn't mean that he was stronger. It just means he beat him in 2 fights.

 

The perfect example of this is the Moggy/ Nynaeve standoff. They were about equal in strength, Moggy was slightly stronger as she started winning the fight by strength. Nynaeve however wins the fight by throwing the Domination band at her, causing her to loose her concentration.

 

Nynaeve wasnt stronger, or more knowlegable in the OP, but she did win that fight.

 

Just because it is stated that someone won a fight doesn't make them stronger.

[Millon]

I think theres a quote from RJ or BS that states Angreals dont multiplye but simply add on.

 

 

Quote from: The Fisher King on December 13, 2009, 04:33:13 PM

You also imply that you do not think there is ANY chance in the world that Lanfear's Belt MIGHT be just possibly be an An'greal.

 

 

 

No theres nothing to say that it is.

 

Well if thats possible then Rand probably has 16 toes. And of course Matt has A white cloak thats a 2nd cousin. Also Aiel dont eat every 3rd day to stay tough. And you cannot forget the Masma was heavily infulenced by Fain.

 

I could say anything. Like you do. It would be wrong but i could say it. There nothing to suggest it, theres no point to think it, but its probably true.

 

It's pretty easy to assume that her belt and jewelry are not angreals. The only way a persons strenght is altered is when the OP is drawn through said tool. Cyndane/LTT Drooler sitting idle, her power would reveal itself at it's normal level. So, unless everytime she was around the other DO's kids she was embracing the source, they would know the difference of her strength.

 

Another thought I had on LTT's stalker's strength in power is the way she was rescued/removed from the evil elves. Don't see Dem or the he-she forsaken or Messaana rescuing her so perhaps Moiraine killed her and she was reborn via the DO. It could be assumed that her lessened strength was a punishment from the Dark One. :-\

[Zidel333]

The fact that LTT Beat Ishy 2 times, or humble him 2 times in the AOL doesn't mean that he was stronger. It just means he beat him in 2 fights.

 

The perfect example of this is the Moggy/ Nynaeve standoff. They were about equal in strength, Moggy was slightly stronger as she started winning the fight by strength. Nynaeve however wins the fight by throwing the Domination band at her, causing her to loose her concentration.

 

Nynaeve wasnt stronger, or more knowlegable in the OP, but she did win that fight.

 

Just because it is stated that someone won a fight doesn't make them stronger.

 

OK, this proves my point, without sufficient textual evidence or implication, you can't take make such comparisons between Nyneave and Moggy. It would be perfectly fine to say, "As far as we know, Nyn and Moggy are on similar levels of OP strength, maybe not exact, but close." What you're doing is wild speculation, and unless your broadcast it as such, then it is no longer a logical, nuanced argument.

 

Returning to the original point, but Nyn WON the fight. Winning and losing is an inherent aspect of our how we judge competitions and compare individuals. LTT won - twice - against Ishy. I'm not saying that it's direct proof of Ishy being weaker, but it does substantiate this tbeory. Not prove, substantiate. I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. But neither of us is fully correct until proven otherwise. 

[Millon]

And being a woman, in the Power, that's by a fair stretch.)[/i] in raw strength.

What we have been told is that men are stronger, but women are more dextrous, so there is nothing the strongest man could do that the strongest woman couldn't match. Again, raw strength doesn't count for a whole lot. Moggy, even if she was the weakest, would still have equivalent capabilities to a man a few levels higher than her. So it balances out.

 

Where is it stated that the nothing the strongest man could do that the strongest women couldn't match stated? Books and chapter number please because in my 9 years of reading the series I cannot think of a single instance this view is substantiated.

 

EOTW. First explanation of the power by Moiraine to Egwene. She said flat out that men were stronger. As in proportions of physical strength in regular people. Men tend to be stronger. Not always the case as I'm sure you know. lol (just pokin at ya)She also explained that men tended to be stronger in fire and earth but ended with that whole shpeal about wind snuffin fire and water wearing away earth yadayadayada. I don't remember the chapter number. Fairly early though

[DPT24]

Back on Topic....

 

Really only Path of Daggers felt a little drawn out to me, otherwise I enjoyed the books fine, and Path of Daggers still was a good book.

[Luckers]

Actually, it's well established that Rand is and was (as Lews Therin) stronger the Ishy. Not better educated, not more adept then Ishy certainly, but stronger. AFAIK, there is no direct comparison in terms of power levels, that is LTT and Ishy themseleves discussing it, but we do seem some pointed claims by Aginor in TEOTW Ch. 50-51 where he talks about being right behind those 2 in power

 

Actually it's not. In point of fact it is directly stated that they were of the same strength. From the Guide.

 

Believed to be the most powerful of the Chosen in the use of the One Power, [ishamael] was equaled by none but Lews Therin Telamon himself.

 

Ishamael was equaled by Lews Therin. Not exceeded, equalled. And it was Moiraine who spoke of Aginor being only a step below Ishamael and Lews Therin in strength in the power, but that also indicates that they were of the same strength.

 

1) LLT was appointed Tamyrlin, over everyone else because his strength was greater then everyone else, supplemented by his vast knowledge and successful research (writer of several books, redevelopment of sword fighting), and his success in many previous leadership positions. But once again, his supreme power had some/everything why he was raised.

 

Three points. Firstly, as far as we know 'Tamyrlin' was not a title for the position of leadership of the Aes Sedai. That title was 'First Amongst Servants', and the ring of Tamyrlin was a symbol of that office, but the word was never applied as a title in the way Amyrlin is applied in modern terms.

 

Secondly, Lews Therin was NOT appointed for his strength in the Power. In the Age of Legends it was skill, not strength, which granted social attainment. Indeed, the standard practice when strength was needed was to form circles with the most skillful Aes Sedai guiding the flows, irrespective of their strength, and the First Amongst Servants--a political leader--had no need for strength in the power. That Lews Therin did was happenstance. Keep in mind too that there were millions of Aes Sedai--there would have been more than Lews Therin at the top of the strength distribution. It was his political skill that saw him to the top, not his strength in the Power.

 

Furthermore, for the sake of argument, it is fallacious to use this as evidence that Lews Therin was greater in strength than Ishamael anyway--Elan Morin was a philosopher, not a politician. They weren't in the same fields, therefore even if Lews Therin's strength had been a factor in his selection it did not imply anything about his strength relative to Ishamael, who was never in the race for that position.

 

Thirdly, Lews Therin as far as we know never wrote any books. He was a politician, not a scholar. And swordfighting was a sport for him until the War, it had no part in him being raised First Amongst Servants.

 

2) Ishy was humbled twice by LTT -- in the Hall of Servants, and at Paarden Disen. Obviously One Power was at the source of this humbling. We do not know if LTT and Ishy squared off alone at Paarden Disen, nor can we confirm that OP was the source of the humbling in the HoS (but it's location would certainly presume so). The main thing is Ishy LOST TWICE. Surely if he was as strong as LTT he would have won at least once.

 

Two points this time. Firstly, purely on the concept you express on the nature of combat and victory and its implications for the respective strengths of the combatants--this is again fallacious logic. There is no surety of alternating victory in the equality of strength. Cyndane shows that when she manages to hold her own against Alivia even though with an angreal Alivia would have been more than twice Cyndane's strength. Skill and circumstance weighs by far more heavily than strength. They might have fought half a hundred times, with Ishamael losing every time, and it wouldn't imply anything about their relative strength.

 

Secondly, you make the presumption that being humbled in the Hall of Servants should involve the One Power, as if one follows from the other. Not so. The Hall was a place of deliberation, like the Senate. If we are to attempt to draw inference from this event, as you request, then the combination of the nature of that location with the use of the word 'humbled' suggests that their confrontation was ideological--a debate.

 

Indeed, consider, the Hall of Servants would not have tolerated the presense of one of the Forsaken anyway. If Ishamael had gone to the Hall Lews Therin would not have fought him alone. This suggests that this confrontation took place before the War, when Ishamael was still Elan Morin. We do know, after all, that Elan worked on behalf of the Dark One for more than half a century before the war, and that at some stage announced the Dark One's true nature--its possible this humbling involved Lews Therin blocking Elan Morin from influencing the council in some way--it may even have been the plan of Elan Morin's that Lews Therin blocked, the one which began the War of Power.

 

Then, for the Paaren Disen incident almost certainly involved armies. One does not defeat someone 'at the gates' in a duel. The wording shows therefore that this was a military contest, and to presume that the two generals at some stage fought a duel is to ask us to consider facts not in evidence. For someone so prolific on the subject of quotes and citations I find this a curious lapse in methodology.

 

Ultimately these points do not touch on this discussion.

 

3) It is well established that reincarnations have the same power levels of their past lives. As such Rand = LTT in OP, and Rand/LTT > Isidin.

 

First a Lucker's nitpick (which is to say I don't really disagree, but I prefer we keep fact and theory defined. Feel free to ignore this point). Specifically, we do not know that reincarnation always results in the same power levels. We know from RJ that a soul with the ability to channel will always have that ability, but the state of learning/sparking changes per birth, therefore other aspects may as well, including strength. Now we do have suggestive evidence in the case of Rand's rebirth, but one case cannot be taken as fact. Rand could well be different, as the Dragon soul or even just a soul retained in TAR. It could even be that strength varies from birth to birth and that its just happenstance Rand ended up at the top again two times running.

 

That being said, the correlation between Rand and Lews Therin does not raise Lews Therin above Ishamael--in fact it means the inverse, that Rand and Moridin are the same strength.

 

Where is it stated that the nothing the strongest man could do that the strongest women couldn't match stated? Books and chapter number please because in my 9 years of reading the series I cannot think of a single instance this view is substantiated.

 

RJ stated it in his blog. Here.

 

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

[RJ: Blog, Pre Knife of Dreams]

 

OK, this proves my point, without sufficient textual evidence or implication, you can't take make such comparisons between Nyneave and Moggy. It would be perfectly fine to say, "As far as we know, Nyn and Moggy are on similar levels of OP strength, maybe not exact, but close." What you're doing is wild speculation, and unless your broadcast it as such, then it is no longer a logical, nuanced argument.

 

We saw them match each other, strength for strength, in what amounts to a One Power arm wressle. That is sufficient textual evidence to state that they were evenly matched in strength at that point in the series.

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

OK, this proves my point, without sufficient textual evidence or implication, you can't take make such comparisons between Nyneave and Moggy. It would be perfectly fine to say, "As far as we know, Nyn and Moggy are on similar levels of OP strength, maybe not exact, but close." What you're doing is wild speculation, and unless your broadcast it as such, then it is no longer a logical, nuanced argument.

 

Returning to the original point, but Nyn WON the fight. Winning and losing is an inherent aspect of our how we judge competitions and compare individuals. LTT won - twice - against Ishy. I'm not saying that it's direct proof of Ishy being weaker, but it does substantiate this tbeory. Not prove, substantiate. I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. But neither of us is fully correct until proven otherwise.  

 

Since you the pair of you are wanting some textual backing for this argument, here ya go:

^{"Moghedien was not suddenly going to hurl all of her strength at her; she already was. The woman was putting out as much effort as she. She was facing one of the Forsaken, and far from being plucked like a goose for supper, she had not lost a feather. She was meeting one of the Forsaken, strength for strength! Moghedien was trying to distract her, to gain an opening before her own strength gave out!" ~ The Shadow Rising, Chapter 54}

 

The end result of that realization was Nynaeve baiting Moghedien into thinking she was winning and then smacking her in the face with the Sad Bracelets. +win, and that can't be credited to her strength in the OP.

 

 

Edited to remove spoilers.

[Zidel333]

Thank you!!

[Luckers]

OK, this proves my point, without sufficient textual evidence or implication, you can't take make such comparisons between Nyneave and Moggy. It would be perfectly fine to say, "As far as we know, Nyn and Moggy are on similar levels of OP strength, maybe not exact, but close." What you're doing is wild speculation, and unless your broadcast it as such, then it is no longer a logical, nuanced argument.

 

Returning to the original point, but Nyn WON the fight. Winning and losing is an inherent aspect of our how we judge competitions and compare individuals. LTT won - twice - against Ishy. I'm not saying that it's direct proof of Ishy being weaker, but it does substantiate this tbeory. Not prove, substantiate. I'm not wrong. You're not wrong. But neither of us is fully correct until proven otherwise.  

 

Since you the pair of you are wanting some textual backing for this argument, here ya go:

^{"Moghedien was not suddenly going to hurl all of her strength at her; she already was. The woman was putting out as much effort as she. She was facing one of the Forsaken, and far from being plucked like a goose for supper, she had not lost a feather. She was meeting one of the Forsaken, strength for strength! Moghedien was trying to distract her, to gain an opening before her own strength gave out!" ~ The Shadow Rising, Chapter 54}

 

The end result of that realization was Nynaeve baiting Moghedien into thinking she was winning and then smacking her in the face with the Sad Bracelets. +win, and that can't be credited to her strength in the OP.

 

You're ignoring the obvious. Nynaeve used the Sad Bracelets to end the stalemate. Yes, that gave her victory, and yes that victory was attained by wit and not her strength in the One Power, but that doesn't change the fact that prior to Nynaeve's excellent ploy there was a stalemate. They were evenly matched in strength. Exactly matched, in fact.

 

I'm not arguing that Nynaeve was as strong as Moghedian because she won the fight. Strength and victory often have nothing to do with each other, as I argued in detail above. I'm stating that they were equal in strength because we see it shown clearly in that scene.