Alivia as Ilyena reborn...

[Impressive Bosom]

...guys, I've been reading some things out there that really have me considering it as a possibility. I would LOVE to know what some of you conspiracy theorists think about it. I've been agonizing over why this seemingly random and unnecessary person was introduced so late in the series to serve such an apparently pivotal role, and this possibility might explain it...

 

Now personally I've always assumed (like many here) that Rand was LTT reborn and that the two were kind of 'thinking to themselves' across time/lives so my question is going to stem from that assumption

 

I've always suspected that Min, Aviendha and Elayne were fractured aspects of Ilyena reborn, and that in part explained Rand's loving all three of them very quickly and almost instinctively, even if such polyamory was against his nature and nurture... as well as their 'destiny' to love him. However, some very compelling arguments have been made about Alivia, from her similar appearance (not that that means anything) to her ability with the One Power (Ilyena could channel and that ability apparently stays with you through rebirths) to her unquestioned and absolute loyalty to him.

 

I wonder if she helps him die after his purpose has been fulfilled so that they can again be reunited in the world of dreams, which would make for a happy prologue in MoL.

[ed2funy]

wow...

interesting..

 

but I thought it has been said before that people don't always channel when reborn (for the ones who are reborn again and again)...

 

 

I could be mistaking it with something else...

so meh...

 

Also, I just don't like this theory...lol....I like the whole 1 guy, three wives....they all love each other so much...

 

[ROB_88]

However, some very compelling arguments have been made about Alivia, from her similar appearance (not that that means anything) to her ability with the One Power (Ilyena could channel and that ability apparently stays with you through rebirths) to her unquestioned and absolute loyalty to him.

 

if that's all you have to base this on, then you got nothing

[Mablir Dorlig]

Or maybe it could be Alanna or Cadsuanne?

[Impressive Bosom]

However, some very compelling arguments have been made about Alivia, from her similar appearance (not that that means anything) to her ability with the One Power (Ilyena could channel and that ability apparently stays with you through rebirths) to her unquestioned and absolute loyalty to him.

 

if that's all you have to base this on, then you got nothing

 

I didn't want to recycle the arguments of others that I read in different places all here. I wanted to get the fresh, untainted opinions of the many learned members of this board about the possibility... perhaps get some discussion going a bit more in-depth than 'you got nothing'.

 

What do YOU think... as to why it might be true or why it might not?

[Impressive Bosom]

wow...

interesting..

 

but I thought it has been said before that people don't always channel when reborn (for the ones who are reborn again and again)...

 

 

I could be mistaking it with something else...

so meh...

 

Also, I just don't like this theory...lol....I like the whole 1 guy, three wives....they all love each other so much...

 

 

My understanding, and I think I'm actually paraphrasing RJ himself here, is that if you can channel in one life, then you can channel in the next life as well... but you might never, as some with the ability to learn never do - i.e. sparking in one life doesn't necessarily mean you spark in the next. I am pretty sure that it was also said that if you burn out or are stilled in one life you lose the ability to channel in the next, since the ability to channel has to do more with the soul than with the body.

 

I like my theory better too, but this one has suddenly become quite intriguing. One must admit that her sudden inclusion so late in the series despite the rather significant role it seems she will play in Rand's end/resolution is suspicious...

[ed2funy]

I personally have never seen any thoughts on Illeyna being reborn...

but I would agree that maybe her soul was split into three...

 

I don't think Alivia is her, just because she is going to help him die...

Would His soul mate want him to die, if she was with him already?

 

Alivia would love him, not be completely loyal to him...

 

 

Maybe, she is just his pet dog reborn?

lol....jk

[ed2funy]

I think why she came in so late is just because RJ needed time to write her in...

He couldn't have a damane all of a sudden captured and become one of Rand's most fervent followers...

[mb]

A soul I think cannot be split.  I am not entirely sure about that.

If a soul cannot be split, then a reborn cannot be more than one person.

 

We do not know if Ilyena is reborn; nor the character if Ilyena is reborn.

 

For any reborn, I think the character shares a number of similar experiences as the previous rebirths of the soul.  I am not entirely sure about that either.

If that is true, Ilyena's reborn might have experiences similar to Ilyena's.

 

[ed2funy]

Ilyena could not even have been reborn...

She may not be bound to the Wheel with LTT like Brigitte and Gaidal....

 

I like the Alivia=Dog theory...lol

[Vulgir]

No, there isnt any substantial evidence to support this. THere is however alot of items to disprove this theory.

 

wouldnt LTT in rand's head comment or feel some type of connection to her? The guy has been pining for his wife for a few thousand years, you would think that LTT would have some sense if she was reborn

          This raises the point that Ilyena and/ or LTT is not a hero, or resides in TAR between lives, because as we have seen Gaidal and Bridgette spend there time together in TAR, but its apparant that is not the case here.

 

Ewww, shes a few hundred years old, if the wheel was going to spin her out make it in a non perverse way

 

There are other items in the new book that lean against this theory as well that i cannot post here.

 

 

[mb]

wouldnt LTT in rand's head comment or feel some type of connection to her? The guy has been pining for his wife for a few thousand years, you would think that LTT would have some sense if she was reborn

Reborn people feel a connection to rebirths of their loves?

Books 1 through 11 do not tell one way or the other.

 

This raises the point that Ilyena and/ or LTT is not a hero, or resides in TAR between lives, because as we have seen Gaidal and Bridgette spend there time together in TAR, but its apparant that is not the case here.

From the scene where the Heroes appear, they address Rand as Lews Therin.  That scene seems to be an indicator that Lews Therin is a Hero.  Books 1 through 11 do not tell whether Ilyena was/is a Hero or not.

If Ilyena was/is a Hero, Lews Therin might have saw her in Telaranrhiod when neither of them was spun out.

 

Lews Therin's almost constant moaning about her might be from regret of the deed he did to her.

 

[Vulgir]

wouldnt LTT in rand's head comment or feel some type of connection to her? The guy has been pining for his wife for a few thousand years, you would think that LTT would have some sense if she was reborn

Reborn people feel a connection to rebirths of their loves?

Books 1 through 11 do not tell one way or the other.

 

This raises the point that Ilyena and/ or LTT is not a hero, or resides in TAR between lives, because as we have seen Gaidal and Bridgette spend there time together in TAR, but its apparant that is not the case here.

From the scene where the Heroes appear, they address Rand as Lews Therin.  That scene seems to be an indicator that Lews Therin is a Hero.  Books 1 through 11 do not tell whether Ilyena was/is a Hero or not.

If Ilyena was/is a Hero, Lews Therin might have saw her in Telaranrhiod when neither of them was spun out.

 

Lews Therin's almost constant moaning about her might be from regret of the deed he did to her.

 

 

1, Biregette and Cain do to a degree, but the real evidence lies with the fact that Lanfear can sense that Rand is Lews Therin.

 

2. That doesn't indicate that Lews Therin is a hero of the horn, just that they fought along side him once, Techincally speaking If the Horn is used at the Last Battle, and their have been numurous Last Battle's then the Dragon, who would be alive/around during the Last Battle thus making it conflicting that he would be brought back with the horn. Also we have no idea that it is LTT who resides in TAR as a hero if he is one. Bridgette resides as herself, not one of the numerous other lives she has lived, thus giving way to the thought that it if the Dragon was a hero of the horn he could be any number of Dragons not nesissarly LTT

 

 

[ROB_88]

 

1, Biregette and Cain do to a degree, but the real evidence lies with the fact that Lanfear can sense that Rand is Lews Therin.

 

they don't recognise each other as Birgitte and Cain, they just happen to share the same destiny every time. there is a difference.

and Lanfear is neither reborn or sensing him. she knows Rand is LTT reborn and move on from that.

 

on the issue of Illyena. there is no reason to think she is reborn as Alivia or at all really. as far as we know she is not bound to the horn and will just go on like everybody else.

and no matter how much we want it there is no  way that she was split in to three seperate people. it's not physically possible

[Vulgir]

 

1, Biregette and Cain do to a degree, but the real evidence lies with the fact that Lanfear can sense that Rand is Lews Therin.

 

they don't recognise each other as Birgitte and Cain, they just happen to share the same destiny every time. there is a difference.

and Lanfear is neither reborn or sensing him. she knows Rand is LTT reborn and move on from that.

 

on the issue of Illyena. there is no reason to think she is reborn as Alivia or at all really. as far as we know she is not bound to the horn and will just go on like everybody else.

and no matter how much we want it there is no  way that she was split in to three seperate people. it's not physically possible

 

I agree that Aliva is definatly not Ileyna reborn.

 

In the case of Brigette and Cain, they are drawn to eachother yes, (i didnt know i had to write out every part of the fact that they dont see eachother  as Bridgette and Cain becuase its common knowlege but you obvisiouly felt the need to spell it out) this would indicate the patterren making to they will be together, which since this doesnt happen with Rand and Alivia it can rule her out as being Il. Perhaps sense wasnt the correct wording, perhaps pulled together woudl be better.

 

With Lanfear, no she is not reborn, but Rand is, and she finds herself drawn to him as she did to LTT, she must be able to sense some part of LTT in there because of all the things she asks him about and he respondes to.

 

So if your going to swoop in and make comments perhaps you should read what im commenting on before you start blabbing your mouth.

[jadelollipop]

Again I thought that RJ had confirmed that Rand was tied to the wheel. This would not mean Ilyena tied to Wheel just a normal rebirth. I also read that he confirmed that a soul cannot be split so the 3 wives are not all Ilyena,only one of them (and I voted Elayne due to similarity of name--also she is the blonde in the group)

[mb]

Biregette and Cain do to a degree, but the real evidence lies with the fact that Lanfear can sense that Rand is Lews Therin.

Like another person told, Lanfear is not reborn.

Birgitte and Cain were in Telaranrhiod, not yet reborn

 

That doesn't indicate that Lews Therin is a hero of the horn, just that they fought along side him once, Techincally speaking If the Horn is used at the Last Battle, and their have been numurous Last Battle's then the Dragon, who would be alive/around during the Last Battle thus making it conflicting that he would be brought back with the horn.

If Lews Therin is not a Hero, there seems a slight chance that the Heroes would recognize him.  And there is a chance of the Horn not being blown at a number of past 'Last Battles'.

 

Also we have no idea that it is LTT who resides in TAR as a hero if he is one. Bridgette resides as herself, not one of the numerous other lives she has lived, thus giving way to the thought that it if the Dragon was a hero of the horn he could be any number of Dragons not nesissarly LTT

Actually, Birgitte is the name Randland characters recognize her as.

The actual identity in Telaranrhiod might be like a base for all rebirths of the soul.  Some other member posted something like this in past threads; do not remember exact theory or the member.

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

There's been some interesting facets to Min's vision that are similar to the usual problems of prophecy - is it made clear to her in the original vision that it is Rand and NOT LTT that Alivia will help die? I ask because, as I recall, that vision took place before Min had any real inkling of LTT being in Rand's head. By the time she finds out, it's accepted that it is -Rand- that Alivia is helping to die, but...

 

... Rand and LTT are fundamentally the same person, the Dragon whether Rand is the Dragon Born or not. Visions that Min sees could relate to one or the other since there is no boundary or separation between the two minds. Perhaps it will be that Alivia will help LTT forgive himself for her death and finally, truly die rather than be trapped as part of Rand?

[Jemlin]

I don't think Ilyena has been reborn in the books, or WILL be reborn, specifically atleast, as The DRagon's lover.

 

Why? Well, we know Rand IS bound to the Horn and is a Hero.  We know from Birgitte that if two Hero's are lovers, they are continuously spun out together, and their story, as it could be said, involves the two of them together.  Their success or their failure depends on each other.

 

Now, I think we have seen clearly that Rand is spun out, but I don't see anything that says that the women in his life are repeatedly spun out with him.  Moridin has never hinted to this, in his recollection of their many battles. I am not saying that the women he does fall in love with play a role, but they are specific to each life.  Some might reoccur, but I doubt its anything as strong as that of Birgitte and Cain, and therefore, would make us believe that Ilyena would be reborn during this time period.

 

It would also seem odd to have a soul split into three...especially when each of those souls (if its the three girls) have separate talents.  Its been explained that talents are unique to souls as well.

 

Alivia is an unlikely candidate because there is NO romantic connection between the two.

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

Why? Well, we know Rand IS bound to the Horn and is a Hero.  We know from Birgitte that if two Hero's are lovers, they are continuously spun out together, and their story, as it could be said, involves the two of them together.  Their success or their failure depends on each other.

 

Question: Where is it established that Rand is bound to the Horn as a Hero?

 

I ask, because to my understanding, the Dragon is tied to the Wheel as the Dragon, not as a Hero. Otherwise, it forces the Dragon to a specific role, which doesn't make sense as it has been made clear that the Dragon can be in the future and has been a champion of Shaitan in the past.

[Jemlin]

Why? Well, we know Rand IS bound to the Horn and is a Hero.  We know from Birgitte that if two Hero's are lovers, they are continuously spun out together, and their story, as it could be said, involves the two of them together.  Their success or their failure depends on each other.

 

Question: Where is it established that Rand is bound to the Horn as a Hero?

 

I ask, because to my understanding, the Dragon is tied to the Wheel as the Dragon, not as a Hero. Otherwise, it forces the Dragon to a specific role, which doesn't make sense as it has been made clear that the Dragon can be in the future and has been a champion of Shaitan in the past.

 

When Mat signals the Horn in Falme, he is recognized by Artur Hawking and called out as Hero of the Horn.

[ed2funy]

We have already concluded that Alivia is his dog reborn...

 

JK..I don't think she has or will ever be reborn...

[Eht Slat Meit]

Why? Well, we know Rand IS bound to the Horn and is a Hero.  We know from Birgitte that if two Hero's are lovers, they are continuously spun out together, and their story, as it could be said, involves the two of them together.  Their success or their failure depends on each other.

 

Question: Where is it established that Rand is bound to the Horn as a Hero?

 

I ask, because to my understanding, the Dragon is tied to the Wheel as the Dragon, not as a Hero. Otherwise, it forces the Dragon to a specific role, which doesn't make sense as it has been made clear that the Dragon can be in the future and has been a champion of Shaitan in the past.

 

When Mat signals the Horn in Falme, he is recognized by Artur Hawking and called out as Hero of the Horn.

 

What I'm asking is where it is *explicitly* stated that LTT is a Hero of the Horn. I can't seem to find my WoT books at the moment since they're packed, but what I've been able to find online says nothing of the sort:

"Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. 'I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you.' His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. 'Something is wrong here. Something holds me.' Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. 'You are here. Have you the banner?' A murmur ran through those behind him.

'Yes.' Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon's banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion's knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.

'The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,' Artur Hawkwing said. 'You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.'"

 

It DOES suggest that the Heroes and the Dragon are tied together, but fighting beside each other does not automatically make the Dragon a Hero of the Horn.

 

[ROB_88]

Why? Well, we know Rand IS bound to the Horn and is a Hero.  We know from Birgitte that if two Hero's are lovers, they are continuously spun out together, and their story, as it could be said, involves the two of them together.  Their success or their failure depends on each other.

 

Question: Where is it established that Rand is bound to the Horn as a Hero?

 

I ask, because to my understanding, the Dragon is tied to the Wheel as the Dragon, not as a Hero. Otherwise, it forces the Dragon to a specific role, which doesn't make sense as it has been made clear that the Dragon can be in the future and has been a champion of Shaitan in the past.

 

first of all. The Dragon has never worked with the Dark Lord. to do so would give him ultimate victory.

Ishmael just said he had been turned before, but he's a lying liar who lies.

 

secondly, everyone is bound to the wheel. the wheel is life, the universe and everything. and everyone is reborn at some point.

but those who are bound to the Horn gets reborn as a specific character with a specific task when they are needed the most.

and since the Dragon will always be recognised as such, it's only logical that he would be bound to the Horn, and in theory, if it is used at some other age he would ride with the rest.

[Impressive Bosom]

Why? Well, we know Rand IS bound to the Horn and is a Hero.  We know from Birgitte that if two Hero's are lovers, they are continuously spun out together, and their story, as it could be said, involves the two of them together.  Their success or their failure depends on each other.

 

Question: Where is it established that Rand is bound to the Horn as a Hero?

 

I ask, because to my understanding, the Dragon is tied to the Wheel as the Dragon, not as a Hero. Otherwise, it forces the Dragon to a specific role, which doesn't make sense as it has been made clear that the Dragon can be in the future and has been a champion of Shaitan in the past.

 

When Mat signals the Horn in Falme, he is recognized by Artur Hawking and called out as Hero of the Horn.

 

What I'm asking is where it is *explicitly* stated that LTT is a Hero of the Horn. I can't seem to find my WoT books at the moment since they're packed, but what I've been able to find online says nothing of the sort:

"Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. 'I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you.' His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. 'Something is wrong here. Something holds me.' Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. 'You are here. Have you the banner?' A murmur ran through those behind him.

'Yes.' Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon's banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion's knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.

'The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,' Artur Hawkwing said. 'You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.'"

 

It DOES suggest that the Heroes and the Dragon are tied together, but fighting beside each other does not automatically make the Dragon a Hero of the Horn.

 

 

What I read out of that quote is that:

 

1) The Heroes are tied to the Horn, and the Horn is often (but not necessarily always) sounded at the 'Last Battle' that signifies the end of an Age.

 

2) That the Dragon is almost always present at the 'Last Battle' independent of the Horn being sounded or not.

 

3) That the Dragon is sometimes fighting the Dark One with the Heroes and sometimes has been turned by the Dragon to fight against them. Alternately, the Horn is sounded by followers of the Dark One and the Heroes are then bound to serve them. This possibility was stated (I believe by Moraine) more than once. There is no reason to believe that the 'Heroes' are all universally good in every life they live. Their legends present them as good, but I merely see them as agents of change, of correction when the balance gets skewed.

 

The Dragon is a major, major part of the Pattern and the Age Lace, but his actual role is never predetermined, only the need for him to be there as a catalyst - a catalyst for what is always determined by the person the Dragon himself is and how he deals with all that comes with it. The Heroes are similar, smaller part of the Pattern, lesser threads, which are woven out one or two at a time as needed - the Horn seems to summon the essence of them all at once, only temporarily and seemingly apart from their established part in the Pattern. I also believe that the Dragon has far, far more ability to affect the outcome of events than the Heroes do... meaning that while the Dragon is part of the Pattern for better or worse, the individual Heroes have very specific tasks/roles to fulfill each time they are spun out.