Inturalde (Full Spoilers)

[Kaveman26]

To me it seems that Ituralde's true role in the series is to enforce the idea that the Seanchan empire is the most sound military unit in Randland. I believe it is Rand at one point that mentions the Five Great Captains and muses on how All the Seanchan leadership to a certain extent are peers if not equals to the Five Greats. To me that was foreshadowing that ultimately Rand needs to let Seanchan forces be the leading force in TG.

 

To draw a parallel to real world history. There have been several generals/leaders of great legend. Alexander, Napolean, Hannibal of Carthage etc. As remarkable of a military mind as Hannibal was, Rome ultimately defeated him due to their discipline and ability to adapt. What happened with Ituralde was a good demonstration of this. While a phenom in his own right, his sub captains and those around him are not on his level.

 

Graendal seems to apply Compulsion to nearly everyone she runs into. Whether it turns their brain to mush is a question of whether they are destined to be her pet. The Ituralde compulsion may have simply been to maintain destruction and war in Arad Doman for as long as possible. Morgase demonstrates that strong willed people can fight off certain levels of compulsion (Rhavin had this particular thought) which may be manifested in Ituralde by being smart enough to avoid the orders he knew he would follow dispite them being contradictory or self defeating.

 

On a side note the little conversation between Ituralde and the fallen Seanchan general was great. It made me think of the old Looney Tunes cartoon where Wile E Coyote and the Sheepdog clock in and fight all day, then clock out and have a buddy-to-buddy talk. Certainly demonstrated the level of respect shown to each other and the sheer irony of war.

[maradon]

Mr Ares, how many times have you actually read through the series? or do you just have an amazing memory?

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, how many times have you actually read through the series? or do you just have an amazing memory?

I've read it twice. I get by on amazing memory, with assistance from Encyclopaedia-WoT and similar sites. Mostly memory, though.

[cleantoe]

Can someone PLEASE change the name of the thread to "Ituralde"??? It's currently misspelled and drives me nuts every time I see it!

[maradon]

Luckers has already said he couldn't care less... :o

[Alternate34]

I don't think Ituralde has been Compulsed, but it could be possible that the Compulsion was to unflinchingly obey orders sent by letter to him.  He avoids this compulsion by avoiding any new orders so the Compulsion cannot work its effect.

 

There are several reasons I don't think Ituralde was Compulsed.

 

(1)  The most important, Graendal goes through some extra stuff to assure that he believes the message to attack the Seanchan is one that would hurt the Shadow.  If he were Compulsed, there is no reason to do this.  There would no real reason for any of the letters.

 

(2)  A reason she wouldn't Compulse him is to not arouse the suspicion of the forces of Light as to where she is located.  If you have a Great General, known for his loyalty and awesomeness running around like a jerk, that would give hints to the Light that she is somewhere in AD.

 

(3)  Ituralde's behavior in meeting Rand doesn't make sense as his being Compulsed.  I can understand how it would work, Compulse him to fight the Seanchan until Rand appears, make buddy buddy and then betray after some period of time, but the risk is great as having him in Rand's vicinity increases the chances they find out about the Compulsion.

 

(4)  Ituralde's behavior does not seem to fit Compulsion.  He seems pretty lucid.  Graendal likes to make people's brains into putty.  She doesn't do it all of the time, and she has reason to not do it, but it is evidence.

 

As to what happens to Graendal Compulsion weaves from before the balefire burnout period, I would imagine it would depend on the Compulsion orders.  If they were dependent on further instruction from Graendal, he would essentially be free.  If they had any other kind of order he could carry out, he would do so until cured.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

As remarkable of a military mind as Hannibal was, Rome ultimately defeated him due to their discipline and ability to adapt. What happened with Ituralde was a good demonstration of this. While a phenom in his own right, his sub captains and those around him are not on his level.

We don’t really see Ituralde’s men fail him in any great way. Sure, he loses a few Dragonsworn as they chase off over the horizon (he even comments he wasn’t expecting them to follow him) but beyond that….?

 

Ituralde loses because he’s facing insurmountable odds. He pulls off victory after victory, but there is simply no way he can win.

 

Given that he chooses to fight in the first place, he doesn’t appear to have made a single strategic error (that we have seen). His loss isn’t down to being let down, or through having made mistakes, it’s simply too much of an ask for the force he has at his disposal.

Morgase demonstrates that strong willed people can fight off certain levels of compulsion (Rhavin had this particular thought) which may be manifested in Ituralde by being smart enough to avoid the orders he knew he would follow dispite them being contradictory or self defeating.

When Morgase is fighting off the effects of Compulsion we see from her POVs that she’s incredibly confused, she has blank spots in her memory and she’s frequently disorientated. In short, she knows there’s something wrong with her. We don’t see that with Ituralde. I don’t see evidence of Compulsion.

On a side note the little conversation between Ituralde and the fallen Seanchan general was great.

It was a great scene.

I don't think Ituralde has been Compulsed, but it could be possible that the Compulsion was to unflinchingly obey orders sent by letter to him.  He avoids this compulsion by avoiding any new orders so the Compulsion cannot work its effect.

That’s a possibility, I think.

 

But… where’s the state of confusion as seen with Morgase? He does, after all, abandon his king when he agrees to go to the Borderlands.

 

… But then that depends on, as you say later on, when the Complusion ends with regard to Balefire.

 

In any case, I don’t see it.

(4)  Ituralde's behavior does not seem to fit Compulsion.  He seems pretty lucid.  Graendal likes to make people's brains into putty.  She doesn't do it all of the time, and she has reason to not do it, but it is evidence.

Agreed. I think this is the key.

[Sentinel78]

Ituralde could very well have had a subtle Compulsion applied to him.  This is from Sammael's POV, Chpt. 6, LoC:

 

Sammael would not be surprised if every Domani who visited here left believing that this land had been handed down in her family since the Breaking. She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind's path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her. In fact, she might have been the best at that who ever lived.

 

A subtle Compulsion that is virtually undetectable wouldn't put Ituralde in special-ed classes.  Also, none of the Aes Sedai Verin used Compulsion on were noticeably stupider afterwards either (except for Elza after Semirhage Healed her).

 

In any case, it's doubtful that whatever Compulsion was applied to Rodel will be particularly relevant, as Graendal could not have foreseen Rodel's current situation.  Just my opinion.

 

[lsm]

compulsed or not, he's in saldae with 50K soldiers. is he going to return to his country like rand/bashere think he will?

 

if we're to see him again, BS will have to fit rodel somehow in the next two books, and I don't see why we'd be interested in his POV fighting a loosing battle vs the seanchan. if anything, hearing about it will be more likely

 

on the other hand if he stays and fights in the borderland maybe there will be something there worthwhile to see. nynaeve is awfully worried about lan fighting at the gap with a small army

[1eejit]

Hmm, do we know for sure if/how entering a stedding affects Compulsion? Because Rodel has certainly done that now and then.

 

Food for thought.

[Dunedain Fal]

Ituralde had a great victory.  It was not a Pyrrhic victory because he has ensured that for future generations, that he and his brethren had fought hard and won hard and that it was something to be proud of and take solace in.  Moreover, he did it with lesser numbers and lesser force.  Seachan had damanes and greater numbers and rakens and the likes and yet lost.  If Ituralde could field 100K more, I think he would be able to pull it off.  But now he has Ashaman with him, I am sure he can run circles around the Seachan and defeat their forces piecemeal like the German General von Lettow-Vorbeck did against Allied forces in Africa.

[Worm]

It's still a pyrrhic victory though. The definition of a pyrrhic victory is a victory that costs too many of your troops to be worth it (he stated that he had lost most of his troops in battle and now an even larger army was on the move), yes he did a good job but I wouldn't congratulate him, I mean he played right into the Shadow's hands. (The DO wants the Seachan to be crippled so they can't help the forces of light in the last battle.)

 

Personally I don't think he was compelled I think he was just misled, if he was compelled it would have been a minor thing to stop him doubting his orders rather than something major like betraying Rand.

The very fact he still needed to be tricked into doing things (the messenger killed by the "grey man") suggests that he wasn't under the influence of strong compulsion.

[ajfurst]

With his forces he had it was a pyrrhic victory. However Itrulade thought with just 100 Asha'man (not any extra troops), he could defeat the Seanchan. The Seanchan won through greater numbers. The Seanchan are very organised, but they aren't full of great captains (called so or not).

 

By virtue of a very long lead time to organise, they have everything on hand. Rand, with the exception of the Aiel, has taken over nations either at peace or smashed by war. None had GENERATIONS to build a planned supply chain for fighting away from home. Even the Aiel, although cohesive weren't planning a mass invasion/pacification.

 

The Seanchan have won because of the Damane or superior numbers, not superior leadership. Ituralde, Mat, Rand in TPOD, all beat the Seanchan despite being outnumbered. Rand only drew Callandor when it got to 50k with hundreds of damane against his remaining 5k odd and 50 Asha'man.

 

A smart truce would involve putting the Seanchan in charge of logistics and all non-channeler scouting, with the Raken etc. If a general the likes of Ituralde, Mat or Bashere had been in charge of the Seanchan  they'd have conquered almost everything, despite what Rand tried, with their numbers.

 

As for Ituralde, his POV was one of the very few redeeming points of COT. He's become one of my favourite characters despite limited screen time.

[Muad Cheade]

It seems Mr. Ares has addressed all of FanoLan's points in my absence.

 

With his forces he had it was a pyrrhic victory. However Itrulade thought with just 100 Asha'man (not any extra troops), he could defeat the Seanchan.

I doubt Rand will give Ituralde continued use of his Asha'man, especially if he goes to fight a "lost cause." Rand has bigger priorities (especially the upcoming Black Tower civil war.

 

The Seanchan won through greater numbers. The Seanchan are very organised, but they aren't full of great captains (called so or not).

You can't blame them for utilizing their biggest advantage. Galgan, Turan, Tylee and Karede seem to be very good generals and those are just the few we have seen. I hope we see more of General Chisen also.

 

The Seanchan have won because of the Damane or superior numbers, not superior leadership. Ituralde, Mat, Rand in TPOD, all beat the Seanchan despite being outnumbered. Rand only drew Callandor when it got to 50k with hundreds of damane against his remaining 5k odd and 50 Asha'man.

Those victories were only achieved when the Seanchan underestimated their enemies. When they no longer do so, the tide changes. Notice the second half of Rand's battle in tPoD. The Seanchan turned Rand's total victory into his Pyrrhic one. After underestimating Ituralde, the Seanchan brought a larger army, more damane and changed their tactics. They did the same to Mat although that was what he planned them to do.

 

compulsed or not, he's in saldae with 50K soldiers. is he going to return to his country like rand/bashere think he will?

That seems the most likely unless Rand changes his plans.

 

on the other hand if he stays and fights in the borderland maybe there will be something there worthwhile to see. nynaeve is awfully worried about lan fighting at the gap with a small army

I believe Lan has already left Saldea, else Ituralde's scouts or the Asha'man would have found him. Rand and Nynaeve's conversation implies that Lan has moved on.

 

You don't get champagne for 400 posts. You only get that when you reach 4,000. 400 only gets you some cheap vodka.

That is a shame but I will take that.

 

It seems interesting to note that it seems that some good generals are also blademasters. Ituralde, Turan, and Bryne are blademasters. Agelmar Jagad probably is and I suppose Mat is due to his memories of other men. Just interesting to note.

[Mr Ares]

With his forces he had it was a pyrrhic victory. However Itrulade thought with just 100 Asha'man (not any extra troops), he could defeat the Seanchan. The Seanchan won through greater numbers. The Seanchan are very organised, but they aren't full of great captains (called so or not).

The Seanchan methodology involves studying their losses and adapting, which is exactly what the Great Captains do. Of course, that doesn't automatically mean that they will have masses of Great Captains, as natural talent plays a part, but they have a military culture in which the best are promoted, and can expect to thrive - they will have Great Captains. The Westlands don't. There, men can gain command through being nobles. The Seanchan didn't just keep throwing wave after wave of men at Ituralde to beat him into submission. They adapted. They don't make the same mistake twice. We see the same in other situations - they adapt in the fighting against Rand, for example.

[Sab]

But they have also developed the false belief in the "ever victorius Army" myth thus making them careless.  Yes they adapt and learn well but had they true great captains they wouldn't need to suffer the great losses they have in order to adapt.  face it general wise they are out matches I mean they are up against Mat, LTT, and Ituralde. Their adavntage is just sheer numbers.  Rand brought too few in his fight and Ituralde can't get replacements like they can.

[maradon]

But they have also developed the false belief in the "ever victorius Army" myth thus making them careless.  Yes they adapt and learn well but had they true great captains they wouldn't need to suffer the great losses they have in order to adapt.  face it general wise they are out matches I mean they are up against Mat, LTT, and Ituralde. Their adavntage is just sheer numbers.  Rand brought too few in his fight and Ituralde can't get replacements like they can.

 

We have barely seen their best captains in battle, their best on this side of the ocean have probably been the ones making the campaign decisions for the return and not the ones fighting the actual battles. Whereas our best and brightest have been right in the thick of it.

[Muad Cheade]

But they have also developed the false belief in the "ever victorius Army" myth thus making them careless.  Yes they adapt and learn well but had they true great captains they wouldn't need to suffer the great losses they have in order to adapt.  face it general wise they are out matches I mean they are up against Mat, LTT, and Ituralde. Their adavntage is just sheer numbers.  Rand brought too few in his fight and Ituralde can't get replacements like they can.

That is not a myth. It is a fact. The Ever Victorious Army may lose a battle occasionally, but the never lose the war. They study and analyze what made them lose the battle(s) and they adapt and change.

[dholm]

That depends rather heavily on how you define a war, Muad.

[Muad Cheade]

That depends rather heavily on how you define a war, Muad.

A war is a military conflict between two political groups.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. However, it is possible to win a war despite losing the majority of the battles. Just look at the examples of the Romans in both the Second Punic War and Pyrrhic War.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

But they have also developed the false belief in the "ever victorius Army" myth thus making them careless.  Yes they adapt and learn well but had they true great captains they wouldn't need to suffer the great losses they have in order to adapt.  face it general wise they are out matches I mean they are up against Mat, LTT, and Ituralde. Their adavntage is just sheer numbers.  Rand brought too few in his fight and Ituralde can't get replacements like they can.

When have we seen them be “careless”?

 

The main losses we’ve seen them take were, what?

1. Falme and all that jazz

2. When Rand whipped out Callandor and Bashere planned the day

3. Ituralde’s campaign

 

Falme and Rand w/. callandor aren’t something that any general, great captain or otherwise could have resisted. Added to that, when Rand and Bashere went after them, Rand’s forces were commanded by a great captain. Finally, Ituralde’s a great captain, fighting a guerilla war in his homeland….

 

They’ve adapted to everything so far and gone on to crush everything in their path…

[ajfurst]

 

With his forces he had it was a pyrrhic victory. However Itrulade thought with just 100 Asha'man (not any extra troops), he could defeat the Seanchan.

I doubt Rand will give Ituralde continued use of his Asha'man, especially if he goes to fight a "lost cause." Rand has bigger priorities (especially the upcoming Black Tower civil war.

 

Rand wasn't giving Ituralde the Asha'man to fight the Seanchan anyway. The point was a Great Captain thought with 50k troops and 100 Asha'man he could defeat hundred's of thousands of Seanchan soldiers and hundreds/thousands of Damane.

 

Notice the second half of Rand's battle in tPoD. The Seanchan turned Rand's total victory into his Pyrrhic one. After underestimating Ituralde, the Seanchan brought a larger army, more damane and changed their tactics. They did the same to Mat although that was what he planned them to do.

 

They got told by Suroth, via Darkfriends/Forsaken when and how Rand would be attacking them. I'm sure almost any army given forewarning of the attacking enemies tactics would do well. As a similar situation flipped around for the Seanchan versus a superior force - a small force attacking a larger one using mobility, imagine how poorly the attack on the White Tower would have gone if Egwene had known it would involve Raken/To'Raken and she was fully in control of the AS. They'd have been in Circles and wiped the floor with the Seanchan.

 

The Seanchan would make great quartermasters, and with their numbers will form a solid backbone of the forces of Light, but Itrulade, Mat or Bashere armed with Raken and Torm to scout, plus the numbers the Seanchan have would be almost unstoppable.

[dholm]

That depends rather heavily on how you define a war, Muad.

A war is a military conflict between two political groups.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. However, it is possible to win a war despite losing the majority of the battles. Just look at the examples of the Romans in both the Second Punic War and Pyrrhic War.

 

If a war between two political parties ends, then five years later starts up again, is it the same war or a new war?

 

Rand beat the Seanchan at Falme. Almost their entire armed forces were forced off of the mainland, in a complete and total rout. I say they lost that war.

 

My point is, the "Ever Victorious Army" is a sham. When you are defining the terms in question, it becomes ridiculously easy to claim things.

 

Besides, considering just how big the Empire is in Seanchan, I'd say there's a different reason than military strategy that causes the Ever Victorious Army to win every time. For one thing... it probably outnumbers any foe by about two hundred to one. If it doesn't, the army probably split between two claimants for the Crystal Throne... which means both sides would be the Ever Victorious Army. Actually, I'm pretty sure most conflicts would involve the Ever Victorious Army on both sides in some capacity or other.

[Sab]

Wasn't it in Path Of daggers at the end where the guy was crying becuase he was going to have to go back with the news the ever victorious army was beaten?

 

They have won when people like the white cloaks road out to meet them in battle or when they can sneak in like when they took Amadica, anytime someone has used quick strikes hitting here and there their respone is always the same gather a huge army and go after them.  Overwhelm them with numbers and damane.  Not saying their generals are idiots.  But their tatics don't seem to vary much.

[coteaz]

If your forces are naturally larger than the enemies, you overwhelm them as fast as possible, minimizes casualties. And also, just look at rands push towards ebou dar, they were on the losing end, and managed to blunt his attacks so they weren't as effective as planned. On a side note, they are fighting some of the best generals on the planet, so it is to be expected, and the army isn't called the ever victorious army because it wins every battle, but because it wins wars, so far this has been one war. In a prolonged battle i would see the seanchan winning, considering all the other countries do not work together.