Inturalde (Full Spoilers)

Luckers · December 5, 2009

If I spelt his name wrong, I don't care. Discuss.

The Fisher King · December 5, 2009

Thanks a Whole Bunch, Luckers, this Thread makes me really happy - Ill just repeat here what I said to you in the Suggestions Thread:

I have come to really really like this character and here is how I see it.

COT was the introduction of Ilturade's Story Arc and the COT Prologue is like Part 1.

The KOD Prologue is like Part 2.

And now, obviously, the story in TGS features the next part (and escalated) part of Ilturade's Story Arc...

Hes kinda like Bashere...but not really at all...kinda like a couple other characters, but not really...i can't really nail him down, what there is about him or what hes really like...but...i just really like him - and he has a big part in TGS.

Im curious what his ultimate destiny is though...I understand that his character is a superb military commander, but, between Davram Bashere, Matrim Cauthon, Gareth Bryne, the late Pedrion Niall, etc etc, we have had plenty of Great Captains and Stellar Generals get Spotlight Time in the series...

I definitely think his Heart belongs to The Light, buuut...Theres just this feeling of something...hidden...or not wuite right...about him to me...

Fish

imperium3 · December 5, 2009

Rodel Ituralde is IMO perhaps the greatest general in the whole of Randland (with the exception of Mat Cauthon and maybe Demandred). To take on the might of the Seanchan empire, with their damane, raken, grolm, etc, using a handful of demoralised soldiers, and win so decisively, is an impressive feat.

Maybe Gareth Bryne, Bashere, Niall, and the others might have been capable of this (Pedron Niall certainly had plans before he was murdered) but we've never really seen them in action.

Ashamandragoran · December 5, 2009

I hope that in AMOL there will be a war council scene with Mat, Bryne, Agelmar, Ituralde and Bashere. It'll be cool to see those 5 guys brain storm together.

Mr Ares · December 5, 2009

Rodel Ituralde is IMO perhaps the greatest general in the whole of Randland (with the exception of Mat Cauthon and maybe Demandred). To take on the might of the Seanchan empire, with their damane, raken, grolm, etc, using a handful of demoralised soldiers, and win so decisively, is an impressive feat.

He didn't win decisively. He lost. He put up a good fight against impossible odds, far better than most would have done, but he lost.

FanoLan · December 5, 2009

Definitely something not quite right with Rodel Ituralde. His first appearance in the series, in LoC, leads him directly to Graendal's MoM persona, the Lady Basene. IMO, one of the least fortunate introductions for any character. With what we know of Gran's plan for Arad Doman, poor Rodel certainly looks like the recipient of some advanced Compulsion.

Given his fanatic devotion to following the orders allegedly sent from King Alsalam, that had actually been forged and sent by Gran, it sees logical to conclude he had been "prepared" in advance to accept and follow said orders. However, we then see him studiously avoid any other messages from the King which does not comport with Gran keeping him on a string. And he does not show any of the signs of overbearing Compulsion - indeed, his strategy and execution against the Seanchan provide convincing evidence that there hasn't been any of the dumbing-down we see in other Compulsion recipients.

So what future orders could Gran have implanted in Rodel? Obviously not too extensive, so maybe subtle enough to avoid suspicion/detection. But then, if Gran is toast, would anything happen to her previously woven Compulsions - those woven before the balefire burn-back period?

Muad Cheade · December 5, 2009

If I spelt his name wrong, I don't care.

That is very unacceptable, Luckers.

Im curious what his ultimate destiny is though...I understand that his character is a superb military commander, but, between Davram Bashere, Matrim Cauthon, Gareth Bryne, the late Pedrion Niall, etc etc, we have had plenty of Great Captains and Stellar Generals get Spotlight Time in the series...

Bashere might die soon, Mat will be M.I.A. for a while, Gareth Bryne is sworn to Egwene, Pedron Niall is dead as you mentioned, and Agelmar Jagad is with the Borderlands. Bashere and Ituralde are the best generals Rand currently has to use.

Rodel Ituralde is IMO perhaps the greatest general in the whole of Randland (with the exception of Mat Cauthon and maybe Demandred). To take on the might of the Seanchan empire, with their damane, raken, grolm, etc, using a handful of demoralised soldiers, and win so decisively, is an impressive feat.

That battle was the definition of Pyrrhic. He lost half his men, was very low on supplies and the Seanchan were going to come after him with an even larger force.

Maybe Gareth Bryne, Bashere, Niall, and the others might have been capable of this (Pedron Niall certainly had plans before he was murdered) but we've never really seen them in action.

There's a reason why they are called the Five Great Captains. Rand's campaign against the Seanchan in tPoD was developed by Bashere for example.

Definitely something not quite right with Rodel Ituralde. His first appearance in the series, in LoC, leads him directly to Graendal's MoM persona, the Lady Basene. IMO, one of the least fortunate introductions for any character. With what we know of Gran's plan for Arad Doman, poor Rodel certainly looks like the recipient of some advanced Compulsion.

You mean the Forsaken meeting in tFoH. That was not him. It was either King Alsalam or Noal (Jain) Charin, with the former being the most likely. He never seemed to have been Compelled to me to be honest.

Given his fanatic devotion to following the orders allegedly sent from King Alsalam, that had actually been forged and sent by Gran, it sees logical to conclude he had been "prepared" in advance to accept and follow said orders.

King Alsalam was his friend and king. Ituralde was not the only general to follow the orders from Graendal.

However, we then see him studiously avoid any other messages from the King which does not comport with Gran keeping him on a string.

Because he knew there was something wrong with them as they were confusing and contradictory.

And he does not show any of the signs of overbearing Compulsion - indeed, his strategy and execution against the Seanchan provide convincing evidence that there hasn't been any of the dumbing-down we see in other Compulsion recipients.

It is because he was not Compelled.

So what future orders could Gran have implanted in Rodel? Obviously not too extensive, so maybe subtle enough to avoid suspicion/detection. But then, if Gran is toast, would anything happen to her previously woven Compulsions - those woven before the balefire burn-back period?

None. Even if she had Compelled him, he is in no position to do harm as he is in a foreign nation on the BlightBorder. And no, Rand's balefire was not strong enough to erase that.

The Fisher King · December 5, 2009

Muade Chead ... (And everyone) I'm going to use italics here...

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 07:16:57 AMIf I spelt his name wrong, I don't care.

Muade Chead: That is very unacceptable, Luckers.

It took me 18 years to finally remember where to put the apostropher in Tav'eren and Ter'angreal.

Quote from: The Fisher King on Today at 07:41:39 AM

Im curious what his ultimate destiny is though...I understand that his character is a superb military commander, but, between Davram Bashere, Matrim Cauthon, Gareth Bryne, the late Pedrion Niall, etc etc, we have had plenty of Great Captains and Stellar Generals get Spotlight Time in the series...

Muade Chead: Bashere might die soon, Mat will be M.I.A. for a while, Gareth Bryne is sworn to Egwene, Pedron Niall is dead as you mentioned, and Agelmar Jagad is with the Borderlands. Bashere and Ituralde are the best generals Rand currently has to use.

I have never believed that Davram is Dark or Destined To Die...I don't know why; just a feeling. I did not mention Algemar, though I guess technically he was covered by the 'etc etc', but i will say that I hope we see him soon - especially at TG, which of course, makes alot of geographical sense.

Quote from: imperium3 on Today at 07:49:01 AM

Rodel Ituralde is IMO perhaps the greatest general in the whole of Randland (with the exception of Mat Cauthon and maybe Demandred). To take on the might of the Seanchan empire, with their damane, raken, grolm, etc, using a handful of demoralised soldiers, and win so decisively, is an impressive feat.

That battle was the definition of Pyrrhic. He lost half his men, was very low on supplies and the Seanchan were going to come after him with an even larger force.

What does 'Pyrric' mean? No, I'm not joking. I know I could look it up, but I'd like to hear how its meant in context with that WOT Batlle. Thanks...I know what TBWBOBA tells us, but I'm not convinced that Demandred is a 'Great General'...Was he as good a Military Mind as Sammael, among The Chosen??? Was Sammael's ultimate demise due to the fact that he got caught ''Thinking in Straight Lines''?? Also, Does Mat Cauthon now deserve the status of a ''Great Captain'' ?? ... In the last battle though, between Rodel and the Seanchan, if you look at percentages, it may have been able to be labelled a ''Success'' because of how many of The Seanchan were taken out in relation to how many of Ilturade's men there were.

Quote from: imperium3 on Today at 07:49:01 AM

Maybe Gareth Bryne, Bashere, Niall, and the others might have been capable of this (Pedron Niall certainly had plans before he was murdered) but we've never really seen them in action.

I HATED that Niall was taken out of the story so early...seemed like a character with alot of potential...plus, I kinda liked the miserable and lonely Ol Bast#rd...would have liked to have seen Niall around a bit more...

Quote from: FanoLan on Today at 08:33:38 AM

Definitely something not quite right with Rodel Ituralde. His first appearance in the series, in LoC, leads him directly to Graendal's MoM persona, the Lady Basene. IMO, one of the least fortunate introductions for any character. With what we know of Gran's plan for Arad Doman, poor Rodel certainly looks like the recipient of some advanced Compulsion.

It makes me sad, but I agree...though, the one weird thing is that he doesn't even show ONE BIT of a Symptom...I know Compulsion can be used subtely, but look how overt the signs are in Noal...and also a point is made in TGS to show how Heavy-Handed Graendal had become in her use of it. ... That sorta confused me in TGS, actually, because, maybe I'm confused, but I thought Graendal had been note for haveing a rather Deft and Soft touch with her use of it...

My Last Thought: I don't see how anyone can be certain that Rodel *Definitely* has Not been Compelled.

Finally...As to what his orders under Compulsion might be...I would imagine that it would be to probably lead a large section of The Forces of Light into a serious Military Ambush/Disaster at Tarmon Gaidon...

Fish

FanoLan · December 5, 2009

You mean the Forsaken meeting in tFoH. That was not him. It was either King Alsalam or Noal (Jain) Charin, with the former being the most likely. He never seemed to have been Compelled to me to be honest.

No, I meant what I posted. If you're going to assume the style of a know-it-all, you should not make such obvious factual errors. The readers' first exposure to Rodel occurs in LoC, Ch. 6 "Threads Woven of Shadow."

After the end of the Sammy-visits-Gran encounter, Gran's servant Ebram enters and announces, "The Lord Ituralde has come, Great Mistress." Followed by Gran's response, "Then he shall speak with the Lady Basene." Don't really see how you can reasonably conclude Alsalam or Charin from that passage - perhaps you'd share some of that good Two Rivers leaf seemingly stashed in your possession.

Given his fanatic devotion to following the orders allegedly sent from King Alsalam, that had actually been forged and sent by Gran, it sees logical to conclude he had been "prepared" in advance to accept and follow said orders.

King Alsalam was his friend and king. Ituralde was not the only general to follow the orders from Graendal.

Yet we see from Ituralde's own PoV that he went from following all of Alsalam's orders, even when they countered productive strategy vs. the Dragonsworn, to completely avoiding any messenger that could potentially come from the King. Kind of a dramatic turnaround. Particularly for someone who still professes his loyalty to his friend and king.

However, we then see him studiously avoid any other messages from the King which does not comport with Gran keeping him on a string.

Because he knew there was something wrong with them as they were confusing and contradictory.

Yet he follows them all, time and again, due to his loyalty. Then completely alters his perspective once the Gran orders about attacking the Seanchan arrive. Complete, 100% reversal of character with no valid explanation from the text other than Rodel's reflecting on the opportunities presented by the kill the Seanchan orders. Kind of a thin excuse for hi to have completely changed behavior and it appears to me to be the likely mind-gymnastics going on in the head of a subtly Compulsed person.

And he does not show any of the signs of overbearing Compulsion - indeed, his strategy and execution against the Seanchan provide convincing evidence that there hasn't been any of the dumbing-down we see in other Compulsion recipients.

Because It is because he was not Compelled.

Yeah because using Compulsion is so out of character for Gran. Seriously dude.

So what future orders could Gran have implanted in Rodel? Obviously not too extensive, so maybe subtle enough to avoid suspicion/detection. But then, if Gran is toast, would anything happen to her previously woven Compulsions - those woven before the balefire burn-back period?

None. Even if she had Compelled him, he is in no position to do harm as he is in a foreign nation on the BlightBorder.

Oh, OK. The man Rand thinks is guarding the blightborder is in no position to do harm. Come on man, your reasoning is falling apart before our very eyes - this is just an awful attempt at making a point. And that's not to mention any potential future meetings with Rand, or Mat or Perrin.

And no, Rand's balefire was not strong enough to erase that.

I specifically inquired whether we, the readers, have any idea what would happen to her Compulsion webs that were laid down before the balefire burnback period. Since you don't think she Compulsed Rodel, what exactly are you referencing?

Crael123 · December 5, 2009

I actually thought he was a darkfriend when he was first introduced but sinse he got more screentime in TGS..... wow. this guy is a monster! he put up an amazing fight against an army that was like 50times bigger than his..... this guys got some guts that much is for sure. but i am curious what his overall point in the series is.

anyway though. if he was compulsed by Gran we really can not blame him because its likey just about everbody at some point in their lives has been compulsed by gran at some point

FanoLan · December 5, 2009

I actually thought he was a darkfriend when he was first introduced but sinse he got more screentime in TGS..... wow. this guy is a monster! he put up an amazing fight against an army that was like 50times bigger than his..... this guys got some guts that much is for sure. but i am curious what his overall point in the series is.

anyway though. if he was compulsed by Gran we really can not blame him because its likey just about everbody at some point in their lives has been compulsed by gran at some point

I absolutely hated Rodel at the beginning of CoT - at that point, I was expecting an imminent close to the series and then we have yet another minor character to drag the story out. So much has changed through the (real world) years. Now, I treasure every bit of every of every book and Rodel has surged to prominence in Randland and it's awesome.

Certainly no blame attached for falling into Gran's clutches - just wondering what possible ramifications, if any.

The Fisher King · December 5, 2009

I felt the XACT Same way Fanolan!!!

I was like ''NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! - Not ANOTHER New Character/SL!!! - And Not ANOTHER 'Quirky Foreign Brilliant General Guy!!!' ''

Now, years and 3 books later, I love Rodel - He fascinates me.

Fish

Muad Cheade · December 6, 2009

I have never believed that Davram is Dark or Destined To Die...I don't know why; just a feeling.

Min had a Viewing and she said something to the effect of "I saw something dark around Lord Davram. If he dies or turns against you..." Also, the fact that it seems Perrin and Faile will assume the broken crown of Saldea, Davram Bashere and Queen Tenobia would either need to die or abdicate. That's another discussion though.

What does 'Pyrric' mean? No, I'm not joking. I know I could look it up, but I'd like to hear how its meant in context with that WOT Batlle. Thanks...

A quick summary of the term,"Pyrrhic victory," would be that it comes from the name of the ancient general and king Pyrrhus of Epirus. He fought against the Roman Republic and while he soundly defeated them multiple times, each battle cost him more men than he could afford to lose (among other things). He famously said something to the effect of "One more victory and I shall be undone." He ended up losing the war as even though the Romans lost many of the battles, they had the ability to raise larger armies and replenish their forces, something Pyrrhus couldn't do.

It's eerily similar as the Seanchan, despite losing the battle, have raised an even larger army, and Ituralde, despite winning the battle, lost half his men with now way or replenishing his army.

I know what TBWBOBA tells us, but I'm not convinced that Demandred is a 'Great General'...Was he as good a Military Mind as Sammael, among The Chosen???

Yes. He was second to Lews Therin in martial prowess and was good enough to have been considered as the Champion/Leader of the Light's armies. Be'lal, Rahvin, and Sammael were also good generals.

Was Sammael's ultimate demise due to the fact that he got caught ''Thinking in Straight Lines''??

His demise was because he betrayed the Dark One.

Also, Does Mat Cauthon now deserve the status of a ''Great Captain'' ?? ...

Yes and no. He is most likely the greatest general right now and hasn't lost a battle. However, the Five Great Captains are seen as living legends and have had decades of experience. So in the minds of the readers, yes. In the minds of the people of the Westlands, no.

In the last battle though, between Rodel and the Seanchan, if you look at percentages, it may have been able to be labelled a ''Success'' because of how many of The Seanchan were taken out in relation to how many of Ilturade's men there were.

It's like I mentioned before. Ituralde won the battle, but he was losing the war. He lost half his men and the Seanchan were raising an even larger army and would not underestimate Ituralde this time. If you remember in his second POV, he and Lieutenant-General Turan (the dying Seanchan general) both spoke of the fact and agreed that Ituralde would soon be defeated and killed when the Seanchan returned.

No, I meant what I posted. If you're going to assume the style of a know-it-all, you should not make such obvious factual errors. The readers' first exposure to Rodel occurs in LoC, Ch. 6 "Threads Woven of Shadow."

Actually, I thought you were referencing the Forsaken meeting in Caemlyn when Rahvin saw an old man in Graendal's manor. By your phrasing, I thought you meant physical appearance, not a reference to him.

I do not know it all, but the fact that you think I do is appreciated.

After the end of the Sammy-visits-Gran encounter, Gran's servant Ebram enters and announces, "The Lord Ituralde has come, Great Mistress." Followed by Gran's response, "Then he shall speak with the Lady Basene." Don't really see how you can reasonably conclude Alsalam or Charin from that passage - perhaps you'd share some of that good Two Rivers leaf seemingly stashed in your possession.

Read what I said above. Think of it this way, if she were about to Compell him, why would she use Illusion to hide her true form? She would just make it so he would think he met her.

Yet we see from Ituralde's own PoV that he went from following all of Alsalam's orders, even when they countered productive strategy vs. the Dragonsworn, to completely avoiding any messenger that could potentially come from the King. Kind of a dramatic turnaround. Particularly for someone who still professes his loyalty to his friend and king.

It is because not only did he believe the Shadow was trying affect control Arad Doman. Also, he recognized instead of fighting the Dragonsworn and Taraboners, they should fight the Seanchan who are the most dangerous.

Yet he follows them all, time and again, due to his loyalty. Then completely alters his perspective once the Gran orders about attacking the Seanchan arrive. Complete, 100% reversal of character with no valid explanation from the text other than Rodel's reflecting on the opportunities presented by the kill the Seanchan orders. Kind of a thin excuse for hi to have completely changed behavior and it appears to me to be the likely mind-gymnastics going on in the head of a subtly Compulsed person.

The messages weren't coming from the king. They were coming from Graendal. If you read his thoughts on the letters, you would see that they contradicted each other and resulted in armies of the loyalists stumbling on each other and fighting. He also had his suspicions that the Council did not know where the king was and had "evidence" that the Shadow had a hand in Arad Doman.

When he had the order to attack the Seanchan, it was the perfect opportunity to unify Arad Doman, stop the war with Tarabon, and fight the Seanchan. That is why he moved quickly and ignored any message that could contradict that one.

Yeah because using Compulsion is so out of character for Gran. Seriously dude.

Seriously, what? You do not always need to use Compulsion to manipulate someone.

Oh, OK. The man Rand thinks is guarding the blightborder is in no position to do harm. Come on man, your reasoning is falling apart before our very eyes - this is just an awful attempt at making a point. And that's not to mention any potential future meetings with Rand, or Mat or Perrin.

Rand seems content to leave him in Saldea, where he has no support. The Trollocs are massing and his force is not large enough to stop them or to attack Saldea. If Rand returns him to Arad Doman, he will most likely die if he fights against the Seanchan.

Of course anyone close to the ta'avern could harm them, but we are talking about the current situation not a hypothetical situation.

I specifically inquired whether we, the readers, have any idea what would happen to her Compulsion webs that were laid down before the balefire burnback period. Since you don't think she Compulsed Rodel, what exactly are you referencing?

If you read what was in my post, you would know I said that even if Rodel Ituralde were Compelled, the amount of balefire used by Rand was not enough to erase it as it would have been too far back.

EDIT: My 400th post! Where's my champagne, mods? Don't make me come after you.

TheAngryDruid · December 6, 2009

I don't think Ituralde has been Compulsed, just manipulated by Graendal.

He was doing what she wanted, fighting the Seanchan and preventing order from being established. No need to Compulse, especially when she needed his mind active. Though I do think Graendal is capable of great finesse when she wants.

As for the surviving Great Captains and their role to play.

1. Bashere is with Rand, though he has an uncertain future via Min's viewing.

2. Ituralde with somewhat with Rand, though he may return to Arad Doman now that Rand broke his word and didn't bother telling him, and he may have Graendal issues.

3. Agelmar is with the Borderlanders.

4. Byrne is with Egwene.

---------------------------------------------------------------

As for the best of the rest:

1. Mat. Not renowned like the others, but the best of the bunch.

2. Rand. If LTT is truly integrated, Rand may have access to the military side as well.

3. Lan. Though not a general, I've a feeling he is pretty solid.

4. Aiel Clan Chiefs: Rhuarc, Bael, etc.

5. Seanchan Generals: Yulan, Kylee (sp?)

6. Demandred

7. Perrin. Kylee was impressed.

The Fisher King · December 6, 2009

I definitely agree that from a Tactical Sense, Perrin has shown through multiple instances now that he isprobably a very very underrated military leader.

Still not sold on Demandred. What have we ever actually seen this man DO???

You can only get by on reputation for so long...

Fish

FanoLan · December 6, 2009

I do not know it all, but the fact that you think I do is appreciated.

Are you having a reading comprehension problem?

After the end of the Sammy-visits-Gran encounter, Gran's servant Ebram enters and announces, "The Lord Ituralde has come, Great Mistress." Followed by Gran's response, "Then he shall speak with the Lady Basene." Don't really see how you can reasonably conclude Alsalam or Charin from that passage - perhaps you'd share some of that good Two Rivers leaf seemingly stashed in your possession.

Read what I said above. Think of it this way, if she were about to Compell him, why would she use Illusion to hide her true form? She would just make it so he would think he met her.

Why would Grandael not use Compulsion, regardless of her use of MoM? It's not like they are mutually exclusive. We've been beaten over the head repeatedly, throughout the series, with how much/often Granny uses Compulsion. She would have no fear of detection, no reason to not Compel him. He's the most powerful and resourceful person left free in Arad Doman at the time of the encounter. Given everything we've been told about Grandael, it seems reasonable to conclude she laid a little extra something in there to ensure Rodel responds to her wishes, without incapacitating him.

Think of it this way - Granny's lair with a working front, full of the type of servants, et. al. we see outside Batrin's Narrow. She has her private quarters in the back with no one but mindless pets and heavily Compulsed errand boys around. Rooms where she can fully relax - let down her hair so to speak - drop the MoM and appear as herself. Now she's going to the front reception room and adopts the MoM so the run of the mill folks continue with their duties all the while thinking the Lady Basene rules the roost.

Yet we see from Ituralde's own PoV that he went from following all of Alsalam's orders, even when they countered productive strategy vs. the Dragonsworn, to completely avoiding any messenger that could potentially come from the King. Kind of a dramatic turnaround. Particularly for someone who still professes his loyalty to his friend and king.

It is because not only did he believe the Shadow was trying affect control Arad Doman. Also, he recognized instead of fighting the Dragonsworn and Taraboners, they should fight the Seanchan who are the most dangerous.

You need to provide something to support this idea. The text in CoT does not support your contention, in the least. Ituralde's thoughts reflect that he had been following all of Alsalam's orders, up to and including the order directing the attack against the Seanchan. While Rodel does wonder about the location of Alsalam, and whether the Merchant Council even knows where he is, there is no indication he believes the Shadow was trying to affect control over Arad Doman.

Yet he follows them all, time and again, due to his loyalty. Then completely alters his perspective once the Gran orders about attacking the Seanchan arrive. Complete, 100% reversal of character with no valid explanation from the text other than Rodel's reflecting on the opportunities presented by the kill the Seanchan orders. Kind of a thin excuse for hi to have completely changed behavior and it appears to me to be the likely mind-gymnastics going on in the head of a subtly Compulsed person.

The messages weren't coming from the king. They were coming from Graendal.

Yeah, we the readers know this, Rodel does not.

If you read his thoughts on the letters, you would see that they contradicted each other and resulted in armies of the loyalists stumbling on each other and fighting. He also had his suspicions that the Council did not know where the king was and had "evidence" that the Shadow had a hand in Arad Doman.

Again I have to question whether you're having a reading comprehension problem. Nothing in the text indicates Ituralde suspects the orders are coming from anyone other than Alsalam. There is zero indication he suspects "the Shadow" and zero mention of any alleged "evidence." Provide a quote if you still insist otherwise.

When he had the order to attack the Seanchan, it was the perfect opportunity to unify Arad Doman, stop the war with Tarabon, and fight the Seanchan. That is why he moved quickly and ignored any message that could contradict that one.

Which is completely antipodal from his previous behavior.

Yeah because using Compulsion is so out of character for Gran. Seriously dude.

Seriously, what? You do not always need to use Compulsion to manipulate someone.

Wow, complete master of the obvious. We're discussing Graendal here, not me, or the generic "you" of the public at large. You know, Graendal, the person every character in the series with any familiarity of her considers the master of Compulsion. Whether or not you would agree with her apparent "need to use Compulsion" is completely irrelevant - Graendal does it because she likes it, even when it doesn't serve any tactical purpose.

Oh, OK. The man Rand thinks is guarding the blightborder is in no position to do harm. Come on man, your reasoning is falling apart before our very eyes - this is just an awful attempt at making a point. And that's not to mention any potential future meetings with Rand, or Mat or Perrin.

Rand seems content to leave him in Saldea, where he has no support. The Trollocs are massing and his force is not large enough to stop them or to attack Saldea. If Rand returns him to Arad Doman, he will most likely die if he fights against the Seanchan.

Of course anyone close to the ta'avern could harm them, but we are talking about the current situation not a hypothetical situation.

Come on man! Grandael is not omniscient, she could not have known Rand would track down Rodel and send him to Saldea. Her lack of foreknowledge of his current particular (temporary) location would not have prevented her from

solidifying her hold on Rodel.

Your earlier response indicated Graendal did not Compel Ituralde because he couldn't do any harm because he is all isolated along the blight border. My point is relevant, if hypothetical, because Ituralde could have a huge impact against the forces of Light.

I specifically inquired whether we, the readers, have any idea what would happen to her Compulsion webs that were laid down before the balefire burnback period. Since you don't think she Compulsed Rodel, what exactly are you referencing?

If you read what was in my post, you would know I said that even if Rodel Ituralde were Compelled, the amount of balefire used by Rand was not enough to erase it as it would have been too far back.

Again I have to question your reading comprehension - is English your native language? My question had nothing to do with whether or not Rand balefired Graendal far enough back to eliminate the Rodel Compulsion. My question is whether or not any Compulsion Graendal had woven and left in place prior to the burn-back period would be impacted by her death.

Mr Ares · December 6, 2009

You mean the Forsaken meeting in tFoH. That was not him. It was either King Alsalam or Noal (Jain) Charin, with the former being the most likely. He never seemed to have been Compelled to me to be honest.

No, I meant what I posted. If you're going to assume the style of a know-it-all, you should not make such obvious factual errors. The readers' first exposure to Rodel occurs in LoC, Ch. 6 "Threads Woven of Shadow."

After the end of the Sammy-visits-Gran encounter, Gran's servant Ebram enters and announces, "The Lord Ituralde has come, Great Mistress." Followed by Gran's response, "Then he shall speak with the Lady Basene." Don't really see how you can reasonably conclude Alsalam or Charin from that passage - perhaps you'd share some of that good Two Rivers leaf seemingly stashed in your possession.

We didn't actually see Ituralde then. So, if we wish to be pedantic, that was not the first time we saw him.

Yet we see from Ituralde's own PoV that he went from following all of Alsalam's orders, even when they countered productive strategy vs. the Dragonsworn, to completely avoiding any messenger that could potentially come from the King. Kind of a dramatic turnaround. Particularly for someone who still professes his loyalty to his friend and king.

It is a completely understandable turnaround that doesn't require Compulsion to explain. After all, Graendal made it appear as if a Soulless was trying to stop Ituralde getting this order. Thus it was an order the Shadow didn't want him to have, making it more important than the others. So he had to unify with his former enemies in order to fight a greater foe, and did so within the orders he was given (thus he was still loyal), thus it isn't much of a turnaround. He went from following orders to following orders.

You need to provide something to support this idea. The text in CoT does not support your contention, in the least.

How about the text in PoD, when the order was sent? "Graendal is in her palace in Arad Doman. She forges a letter from King Alsalam to Lord Rodel Ituralde and seals it with the Hand and Sword of Arad Doman. She gives it to Nazran, a close cousin of the king, who will say Lady Tuva gave it to him after being mortally wounded by a Gray Man." Encyclopaedia-WoT.I'd say that's an indication the Shadow was interested in Arad Doman, but maybe that's just me.

Again I have to question whether you're having a reading comprehension problem. Nothing in the text indicates Ituralde suspects the orders are coming from anyone other than Alsalam. There is zero indication he suspects "the Shadow" and zero mention of any alleged "evidence." Provide a quote if you still insist otherwise.

I seem to recall this saying about glass houses and throwing stones.

EDIT: My 400th post! Where's my champagne, mods? Don't make me come after you.

You don't get champagne for 400 posts. You only get that when you reach 4,000. 400 only gets you some cheap vodka.

FanoLan · December 6, 2009

FYI, this is a book - we haven't actually seen any of the characters - Ituralde's first appearance in the series is a direct reference to him. I made no mention of his first PoV or first "screen time."

Appears you missed the relevance - it's the change in behavior after he gets the attack-Seanchan order I referenced. Rodel did not go from following orders to following orders, he went from following orders to completely avoiding orders.

Are you being intentionally dense or mis-leading? Of course, we the readers know Grandael sent the orders - Rodel Ituralde does not. There is no indication he believes the dark side is drafting his orders and no "evidence" the previous poster suggested.

Just too early for you to form coherent thoughts I suppose. Citing eWoT does not make a bit of sense in this particular, or in general, when quotes from the text are what is required to support the contention of knowledge on the part of a character. What you presented from eWoT is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not Ituralde knew his orders were coming from the dark side.

So I guess you just have to be placed in that group of folks who refuses to answer that question. What happens to Graendals "tied-off" Compulsion when she gets BF'd by Rand. Not the weaves she made just before being BF'd, not the ones she made at any point during the burn-back period. The ones before that.

Champagne or cheap vodka - figures alcohol would have to be involved with the "reasoning" you've put forth here.

Crael123 · December 6, 2009

I definitely agree that from a Tactical Sense, Perrin has shown through multiple instances now that he isprobably a very very underrated military leader.

Still not sold on Demandred. What have we ever actually seen this man DO???

You can only get by on reputation for so long...

Fish

I agree. demandred needs to get of his lazy ass, put up the tater chips, and DO something. secrecy is all good...but for 12 books? really? no. no that does not work.

mossman87 · December 6, 2009

hmm, Banker's Club or Vlad? Rough choice there.

Crael123 · December 6, 2009

How can we be sure he was compulsed by gran? he might have just been manipulated or something by her because she was very good at both.

The Fisher King · December 6, 2009

Ok, Muad Cheade Said: