"To die and Live again"

[Old Skool]

Does anyone believe that Rand will parallel Jesus' death? Like how he gave the "ultimate sacrifice" and "saved mankind." Anyone else believe Rand will be rebirthed for his own "ultimate sacrifice?"

[Guest Harso]

I feel it's clear that the creator does not take an active role in his worlds after he's created them.

[Mardragon]

I voted no (not that I think you're crazy ;) ).

 

I do think it's quite possible that Rand will die and his spirit transferred to an available body- if that's what you meant? I'm not certain that the creator would do that though since (as someone points out above) he doesn't appear to affect events in the world directly.

 

I guess its possible the dark one might transfer him into another body to control him in some way (although I'd think Rand would have to give his soul to him to do that, which he is unlikely to do... unless he did it to save his lady's lives. Nah, that's too Darth Vader....). He might even find a way of transferring himself, or it could happen by some kind of anomaly- possibly the link between Rand and Moridin perhaps. I think this last is the most likely.

 

I don't think that he will be reincarnated i.e. from birth in this story. He will in time, in the sense that heroes are spun-out by the wheel, much as Lews Therin was spun out as Rand, but not in this life-time.

[elmindreda]

i think die and live again as in in another age like birgitte has been basically going round as it has been so they can battle again

[TheDiceAgain...]

I think we're confusing quotes a bit here...

 

"To die and live again..." is part of what the Finns said Matt was going to do, and he already has.

 

"To live you must die" is how the Finns answered when Rand asked how he could survive the Last Battle. While this seems to make little or no sense on its face, it doesn't seem to me to point to a resurrection of some sort.

 

Either way, I doubt that the Creator is going to take a hand in things. There are certainly a lot of Rand/Christ parallels that can be drawn, I seriously doubt that RJ is going to give us the WoT version of Easter Sunday.

[Old Skool]

Ok yea...i didnt have my book handy so i just said whatever quote i could remember... but anyway...the reason I think Rand may be ressurected like Jesus, is cause of some of the many similarities between the two. ie: The spear in the side from Ishy, The crown of swords is similiar to the crown of thorns Jesus wears, and the whole concept of "to live you must die" it could be metaphorical but i believe RJ will twist it and have Rand ressurected or Rebirthed; Mardragon's idea on morridin might be right, but who knows...

[merlinspetrock]

I think we're confusing quotes a bit here...

 

"To die and live again..." is part of what the Finns said Matt was going to do' date=' and he already has.

 

"To live you must die" is how the Finns answered when Rand asked how he could survive the Last Battle. While this seems to make little or no sense on its face, it doesn't seem to me to point to a resurrection of some sort.

 

Either way, I doubt that the Creator is going to take a hand in things. There are certainly a lot of Rand/Christ parallels that can be drawn, I seriously doubt that RJ is going to give us the WoT version of Easter Sunday.[/quote']

 

QFE. I assume it will somehow be related to the link they already share. I think RJ might use the thread theory. Rand being locked in some pitched battle versus Moridin. One power vs True power and Rand will find some way to follow it into Moridins body while expelling him at the same time into his own. Then I think LTT and Moridin are going to battle each other in the same body causing the death of both of them (I truly see this idea of moridin and LTT fighting each other at the end). Then Rand and company use whatever method they devise to seal or close the bore in this age.

[SinisterDeath]

If anything it is going to follow the arthurnian legends more then the bible when it refers to the 'final battle' The bible didn't involve 'jesus' killing houndres of thousands of people now did he?

Now Arthur you remember his final battle!

 

Also I have had an Idea as to what really happens when they say to live he must die..

 

Simply, it isn't meaning he will die phsyically, I think it will mean he will die 'mentally'. And no not brain dead, I'm meaning more like he will get so cold/hard inside that he will no longer value anything anymore. He will escentially be a stone cold killer. This is why Cadusane has to teach him to laugh and cry again.

And 'his' blood on the rocks of shauyol gaul most likely in this context refers to the Aiel.

[merlinspetrock]

Hmm never thought of his blood being the Aiel, but that makes as much sense as anything at this point. I always took it to mean Elayne would give birth there and the blood and stuff, but the Aiel are his blood also and I expect many of them will die in the last battle. Question is will the last battle take place in Shayol Goul or will the battle be some where else and then Rand will go to close the bore. Cant see the DO letting a hostile army get that close to his home base, but you do bring up a good point.

[Old Skool]

Heck there is more than one source that RJ has created WOT from. "arthurnian legends" is just one of them, there are nordic legends and etc...im not saying its going to follow the bible, hell that would be a real shitty ending wouldnt it? I dont 100% believe it will end like that im just looking at some evidence and posting possibilities. If anything i would prefer it not to end like that.

 

I always envisioned every nation of the world joined together under the dragon banner, charging into the blight against mass amounts of trollocs and other dark creatures...something like the last charge of Manetheran. Except it wont be in defense, the armies of the Dragon will start the attack.

[AtheistMonk]

It's "Hell no! You're crazy".

[Luckers]

Rand is not really very Jesus-like. Jesus was a passifist, Rand a warrior. Jesus was there to fix something ideologically wrong in his people, Rand there to fight an evil... the wellbeing of his people is relatively unimportant, in fact he has to hurt them quite a lot--what matters is the overall physical survival. Rand is human, Jesus aint. Rand is a reincarnated soul... which completely goes against Christian ideology. All together Rand fits much more closely with the buddhist idea of a boddhisatva--think Neo... a reincarnated hero whose soul keeps fighting for a specific purpose throughout time. I dont think you can really succeed in drawing any parallels between Jesus and Rand other then they were both predicted mesiah figures.

[SinisterDeath]

Isnt the only correlation between rand and jesus is the fact that rand is close to king arthur, and the 'current' version of king arthur he sought the holy grail? Though I believe the fisher king is much more prevelant then rand is to arthur.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Luckers, I'm not saying that that Jesus is the only thing Rand is based on, but I certainly can site some paralels:

 

Rand's never healing wound : Jesus' wound from the Spear of Destiny

 

Rand's Heron branded palms : Stigmata of the Resurrected Jesus

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn, the "Second Coming" of the Dragon. His arrival in the world is hoped for and feared and he comes at a time of great tribulation and chaos to finally defeat the Dark One and re-seal his prison at the Last Battle, called Tarmon Gai'don : According to the Bible, the Second Coming of Christ will be preceded by a time of great tribulation and upheaval at the end of which the Devil will be defeated and cast out at a place called Armageddon. This will signal the end of the world as we know it and begining of God's reign, something that is at the same time hoped for and feared by many people.

 

As to hurting his people, the book of Revalation says that the truly virtuous will be taken up to heaven and then the rest of humanity will be forced to endure 7 years of pain and tribultaion before Jesus returns. Does that sound like a being overly concerned about the well-being of his people?

 

To say that there are no parallels other than the Messianic aspect seems to ignore some rather obvious similarities...

[SinisterDeath]

Rand's never healing wound : Jesus' wound from the Spear of Destiny

 

Rand's Heron branded palms : Stigmata of the Resurrected Jesus

 

Again the arthurnian legends and the fisher king.

Also branded palms arent the same thing as 'stigmata' that involve an actual stake through the hands, not a 'burn' mark.

[TheDiceAgain...]

SD, I'm not saying that you are wrong, all the main characters are based on an amalgamation of many historical and legendary figures. I'm just saying that to dismiss the similarities between Rand and Jesus seems disingenuous, especially considering that RJ readily admits that he drew inspiration from many of the world's relegions, including Christianity.

 

I think that the wounds on the palms and the wound in the side are very much a reference to the stigmata. The Arthurian legend is very much a Christian legend, all be it that it did not start out that way. Who do you think was one of the influences on the development of the Fisher King legend in the first place if not JC himselF?

[SinisterDeath]

SD' date=' I'm not saying that you are wrong, all the main characters are based on an amalgamation of many historical and legendary figures. I'm just saying that to dismiss the similarities between Rand and Jesus seems disingenuous, especially considering that RJ readily admits that he drew inspiration from many of the world's relegions, including Christianity.

 

I think that the wounds on the palms and the wound in the side are very much a reference to the stigmata. The Arthurian legend is very much a Christian legend, all be it that it did not start out that way. Who do you think was one of the influences on the development of the Fisher King legend in the first place if not JC himselF?[/quote']

 

Well this all goes back to which actually happened first, and which legends/myth stole from others.. There were alot of celtic myths/legends/ect that got intergrated into the system as a whole...

The main thing to remember is this is RJ we are talking about. He may have been inspired by said religions/myths/legends but that doesn't mean he will follow that same path.. Infact if anything he expects us to expect him to follow the path only to have it do a 180 on us.

[Luckers]

Rand's never healing wound : Jesus' wound from the Spear of Destiny

 

Except he has two, one from a knife and one from a staff. Additionally connecting either with the spear of destiny is a bit hard, since Jesus was already dying and it was a relatively normal wounding from a normal spear wielded by a normal man.

 

 

Rand's Heron branded palms : Stigmata of the Resurrected Jesus

 

Again, a fairly loose connection given the difference between the nature and significance of the wounds.

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn, the "Second Coming" of the Dragon. His arrival in the world is hoped for and feared and he comes at a time of great tribulation and chaos to finally defeat the Dark One and re-seal his prison at the Last Battle, called Tarmon Gai'don : According to the Bible, the Second Coming of Christ will be preceded by a time of great tribulation and upheaval at the end of which the Devil will be defeated and cast out at a place called Armageddon. This will signal the end of the world as we know it and begining of God's reign, something that is at the same time hoped for and feared by many people.

 

Rand's birth is not a Second Coming. The nature of his soul is cyclical. There are far closer connections in other mythological and religious texts.

 

As to hurting his people, the book of Revalation says that the truly virtuous will be taken up to heaven and then the rest of humanity will be forced to endure 7 years of pain and tribultaion before Jesus returns. Does that sound like a being overly concerned about the well-being of his people?

 

No, but nor does it sound anything like what Rand does.

 

To say that there are no parallels other than the Messianic aspect seems to ignore some rather obvious similarities...

 

I'm sorry, but there are no obvious similarities. There are weak ones that can be twisted out with a lot of reductionism, and they are just too convoluted for me to buy into when there are much, much tighter ones in other philosophical and religious ideologies.

 

I'm just saying that to dismiss the similarities between Rand and Jesus seems disingenuous, especially considering that RJ readily admits that he drew inspiration from many of the world's relegions, including Christianity.

 

There are links with christianity... just not between Rand and Jesus, and not particularily strong ones.

 

I think that the wounds on the palms and the wound in the side are very much a reference to the stigmata. The Arthurian legend is very much a Christian legend, all be it that it did not start out that way. Who do you think was one of the influences on the development of the Fisher King legend in the first place if not JC himselF?

 

I major in Studies of Religion, and the fact is that the woundings to the side and the like arn't just a thing of christ. Also, the ownership of the Arthurian legend by christianity is the result of syncretism... the myth didn't originate in christianity. It's kinda like how christianity claims to own christmas, when the majority of the actions and myths of christmas are based around other things. The date is the birth of Mithras, not Jesus. The practices of lunch and presents are pagan concepts based around the Winter equinox of Yule, and Midwinter rites. The concept of the reindeer comes from an old practice of use the urine of reindeers in concocting a drug that gives the illusion of flight and mikes the reindeirs nose bleed. Santa... well, im sure most of you know his origins and im getting off track.

 

The point is that there are other religious ideologies and myths that have much stronger correlations to, for instance, the wounds on Rand and the nature of his life the christianity. Much stronger.

[Old Skool]

I seriously cant understand you luckers. You say how "loosely based" the concept of Christianity is explored in WOT. Yet RJ has said himself (who i must remind you, is author of the series) that there are elements of Christianity in the piece. I do not disagree that it is loosely based, however it has oboviously inspired him. Of course he is not going to copy the exact text of the Bible, he would draw elements from it. The definition of "Inspired" is..."An agency, such as a person or work of art, that moves the intellect or emotions or prompts action or invention." What im getting at that RJ has not completely copied the bible, merely drawn inspiration

 

So if im to beleive that someone who majors in "SOR" would understand where RJ got his inspirations from, better than himself...you cant blame me for being a tad skeptical.

[SinisterDeath]

He may have drawn elements from it, but he has also drawn elements from houndres of other religions, cultures, myths/legends ect. So claiming he was 'inspired' by christanity only is pretty dumb, He was inspired by them all, playing little parts in the whole creating what we have as WoT. Also if you'll notice, randland is rather 'unreligious' so if RJ were really 'inspired' by the bible, wouldn't they all be going to 'church' 3 times a day? The 'most religious' group in wot, isn't religious but is the White Cloaks which is inspired by christanity. Then thers the Seanchan, who have alot of random 'prayers' having to do with 'badluck'. Those are about the only 'real' 'solid' parrallels in wot with christanity. Others are loose connections that by all rights were stolen/intergrated into there religion. 'arthur/fisherking ect'.

And the Idea of a tragic heroes tale isn't a new one.

It be like saying the tale of Achilles belong to christanity, or that of 'hercules' or 'thor'.

Its like the 'noah's flood' belong to christanity.. IT doesn't. Alot of culturers/religions have there own versions of it, hell even the Mayans had it before christanity influence! So really its just a moot point. Sure he was 'inspired' by christanity. But he was also inspired by judiasm, budism, ism this and ism that ect.

[Luckers]

RJ has said that he has drawn on many mythologies in constructing his text, and that your assumption that christianity must bear some great part in this is arrogant... and i will remind you that he has never cited christianity specifically, and also remind you that he is a Free Mason, not a christian.

 

That being said there are some obvious references to christiantiy in the texts. The origins of many of the names, the nature of the Dark One and so on has many tie ins... but not Rand. I'm sorry, but the connections between Rand and Jesus are tenuos at best, and there are much more significant connections to other religious ideolgies.

 

Your arrogant assumption of the importance of your religion non-withstanding...

[Kaznen]

For the Judo/Christian references look to the Aiel. They spent a very long time wandering the world, guarding the sacred relics, looking for their promised land (40 years was an old Jewish saying for "don't know how long, but it was long" kinda like us saying "forever"). They broke their pact, and are paying for their sins. They had to fight for their survival against the non Aiel. (Exodus)

 

Then Rand is their promised leader, chief of chiefs (king of kings) his father was was one of the greatest chiefs in Aiel history. And he was a descendant of the Leaders of the Aiel during the breaking, kinda has that House of David thing. And his coming is supposed to erase the Aiel's sin.

 

And some of the "funny stories" the clan chiefs tell in LoC made me think of Old Testament stories (the man marring the wrong women got my notice [Jacob]). There are other biblical references in the rest of Randland but most of it is concentrated on the Aiel.

[OnePower-Napalm]

Am I missing something here? Or are some people unable to draw this conclusion. A knife and a staff made the never healing wound on Rand's side. You take a knife and a staff... a blade upon a wooden rod... sounds like a spear to me. Ah the power of speculation and extrenious conclusions...

[SinisterDeath]

The never healing was made by a staff, not a spear.

The dagger wound came after, only making the never-healing wound worse..

 

Speaking of such there is a myth thing that involves a sheep hearder, getting a never healing wound in his side. I can't remember what it was though.

Also the 'myth' in wot about the greatest swordsman getting defeated by a farmer with a staff, is one that exists in asia.

[Old Skool]

kill