Rand and Moridin - Saidin Sickness and the Body Swap

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "On a side note however...why cant you all face the fact that Rand dies to save the world???? Not every story end in hugs and kisses ya'll. Your trying to hold on to something fleeting here...let go..." Unquote

 

Yea Rand will die, but he will live again. The Finns have said to him "To live, you will die." I dont think this is anything to do with him being spun out like the Horn of Valere or him being Reborn again, im looking forward to how RJ brings this about

[Tosh]

Just wanted to point out that Rand has does something similar to this merging thing (he used the one power to do it) already. In Tear when he is attacked by the bubble of evil.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Would you elaborate pleaxe? I dont remember that, but I am almost finished reading TSR for the third time. I find it quite amazing the things you can pick up on. It almost seems like RJ wanted us to read and reread these books, not just for the obvious but so we can better understand the storyline and its characters. That being said. I just dont see this swap as possible. If it happened, how would Morand(Rand #2 for the sake of others) be able to convince anyone of that? It is clear throughout the books that everyone can see that Rand has been watched by so many that it doesnt seem as though it can be pulled off, no matter how "logical" it sounds. I want Rand to live as much as anyone else but really I think for him to die relates to LTT. Think about it, they are two souls as of one. One dying would not mean the other dies as well hence to live you must die. Thats my take. Body swaping seems to outlandish for the story here. Bodyswaps seem to be directly related to the DO and Rand is certainly not darkfriend.(If he is then he has a short walk to being Nae Blis'.) I am not saying he is but still present me with evidence that Body swapping is totally unrelated to the DO and maybe I shall relent further.

[Luckers]

Firstly LTT and Rand are not two souls. They are one soul, with two facet personalties. They can neither be seperated nor one killed while the other survives. Even Graendal says the only viable option is reintergration, and thats hard.

 

Secondly, Rand convincing others is hardly an issue... it merely takes him knowing things others dont.

 

Thirdly, the movement of souls are not just a function of the Dark One. Dreamwalkers souls leave their body every day, which we know through Perrin. Mordeths soul survives without a body for two thousand years then inserts itself into Fains, and should have been able to displace him. Machin Shin, Draghkar and likely Mashadar remove and consume souls. The hedgehog and other dream ter'angreal remove and replace souls, showing that simple channeling can achieve that goal. Not only are they not of the Dark One, they seem almost easy.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

On the first portion of your post luckers Bravo! You got me. However in your second half you decided to completely avoid my question and answer another. I said prove that body swapping(not a soul leaving the body) is not of the DO. He swaps the bodies of his forsaken. I have not seen any evidence that any body swapping can or would be in the service of the light. Oh and dont think you can use Mordeth on me. Though the evil of SL and the DO are different. I believe they originated together. You see the qualities that created SL are properties of the evil side of human nature. Evil in this story is represented by the DO. Thats why you can not use SL as a viable point to me. As far as TAR souls leave the body but DO NOT swap bodies. Luckers I know you can do better. You see I almost WANT you to prove me wrong. The body-swap is no fav theory of mine but I want some sort of leg up(meaning knowledge of proposed ending) when I read MOL. By this process of elimination we will have a heads up on newbies.

[Luckers]

Let me preface my response by reminding you that what you think is viable, and what actually is are very different things. I do not exist to prove things to contentious fools. If you are unconvinced... wooptido. Disagreement is fine, your arrogance in dismissing that which you make no effort to back is dissapointing.

 

On the first portion of your post luckers Bravo! You got me. However in your second half you decided to completely avoid my question and answer another. I said prove that body swapping(not a soul leaving the body) is not of the DO. He swaps the bodies of his forsaken. I have not seen any evidence that any body swapping can or would be in the service of the light. Oh and dont think you can use Mordeth on me. Though the evil of SL and the DO are different. I believe they originated together. You see the qualities that created SL are properties of the evil side of human nature. Evil in this story is represented by the DO. Thats why you can not use SL as a viable point to me. As far as TAR souls leave the body but DO NOT swap bodies. Luckers I know you can do better. You see I almost WANT you to prove me wrong. The body-swap is no fav theory of mine but I want some sort of leg up(meaning knowledge of proposed ending) when I read MOL. By this process of elimination we will have a heads up on newbies.

 

Firstly, Bodyswapping is a function in which a soul leaves a body, and enters another. Your argument is that it is only a function of the Dark One. Let us examine then what the Dark One does, because it isn't body swapping. He captures souls who have been pushed out of their bodies, he also removes the souls in the new body, and then he places the soul he is holding in the new body.

 

Specifically, therefore, you are asking for evidence that these things are not just things the Dark One can do, and i displayed that. Through the hedgehog and the dream ter'angreal, Machin Shin and Draghkar, Mordeth and dreamwalkers we have seen it is possible to capture, contain or remove somones soul. That is the first and second parts of the Dark Ones action. Through Perrin and Mordeth, we have seen a soul be placed in a body, that is the second. Therefore we have seen every aspect of what the Dark One achieves achieved by other.

 

Ergo, the argument against the bodyswap theory based in the perview of the Dark One is unviable.

 

 

 

Oh and dont think you can use Mordeth on me. Though the evil of SL and the DO are different. I believe they originated together.

 

I can use that which is factually supported in the books. Your personal idiocies have no power over the progression of the story. Specifically; the evils did not originate together. The Dark One is eons old, SL is two thousand years. That is obvious. Secondly the evils of SL and the Dark One are opposite evils. They have no causal link, or link at all.

 

Secondly, who cares? Unless you are suggesting that the Dark One personally removed Mordeth's soul and placed it in Fains, then it is a viable argument.

 

Finally, Moridin utilized the true power in the incident that formed the link, which means if you are going to use your broken logic on why Mordeth was able to body swap, then it applies to Rand and Moridin much more strongly.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Would you mind telling me why you must talk to me in such a way? Have I ever refered to you as an idiot despite the fact I disagree with you? There is no place for your personal emotion towards me on the forum. Just state your facts and be done, THATS IT! We are not here for name calling. As I said I wanted you to break down my theory as I have yet to. After my theory is gone why would I fight this theory? You seem to be more arrogant and if you insist on acting childish then so be it dont act so to me, there is no reason for it. You broke the theory its gone you won do your little dance and continue to strengthen the swap theory, as it is the strongest available I must throw my lot in with it though I throughly wish it was not so.

[Luckers]

Your high handedness grates, SR. For instance, if you dont think Mordeth is a viable point, go into why, dont tell me i cant use him.

 

I suppose my response was... a tad blunt. I just dislike being dictated to, and you've done it twice now.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

I told ya why I thought that Mordeth should not be viable and you told me why he was, case closed. I did not realize you felt I was dictating to you, however in the future I will watch closey how others will inturperet my post. (why did you make me spell that? URGH! :lol: )

[Luckers]

Coz I am mean. Duh. :)

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Okay after going over a few theories I come to this. i dont believe in your theory Luckers, or that of any body swap. I return to my original fate for Rand and that is just to die. His death will allow his return via the wheel. So ends my posts here. That and I dont want to flutter into maddness if ya'll are wrong, you seem to have put a lot of stock in it and I am to wishywashy for all that solidarity stuff.

[grump]

Back about 4 pages it was said Rand doesnt ever get sick unless he trys to seise saiden but what about in Far Madding when he bumped into a tall blond guy dressed in green with a scar why did he get sick then? Why all the detail if the guy is just a walk on?

[cloglord]

I have two possible problems with your theory Luckers, and one thing that might oddly support it.

 

The first thing that I see as problematic is the viewing of Min's that Alivia will help Rand to die. If you consider that evryone but Rand is suspicious of Alivia, it has always seemed to me that Rand is already planning how he will fake his death. He has embraced Alivia as an ally in this. Since I do not believe that Rand is planning to switch his body with Moridin's, I do not see how Alivia will be able to fulfill Min's viewing and still carry out the plan that I believe that she and Rand are hatching currently.

 

The second problem that I have is also a simple one. You have pointed to plenty of references as to how a soul/body swap have/can be accomplished, but everyone of these examples has been largely unopposed. Channelers Vs. Non-channelers, legendary evils Vs. the merely mortal. What your theory does not take into account is the active opposition of one who has demonstrated a knowledge of souls, their reincarnation, and their removal, namely Bal'azamon/Ishmael/Moridin. Arguably, Moridin himself is the most knowledgeable character in the books about the removal/switching of souls. Not only has he undergone this process, he has demonstrated an ability to remove and destroy the soul of another.

 

TDR PG 409. "'Great Lord,' one of the men muttered, 'where is this place?'...'I was asleep in Tar Valon, Great Lord. I am asleep in Tar Valon! Where is this place? Have I gone mad!'"

 

Pg 410, "His finger pointed out the man who had spoken of Tar Valon, a fellow dressed like a merchant, in plainly cut clothes of the finest cloth. The others shied away from him as if he had blackbile fever, leaving him to cower alone. 'You allowed the boy to escape Tar Valon.' The man screamed, and began to quiver like a file struck against an anvil. He seemed to become less solid, and his scream thinned with him. ... The shrieking man was only a bundle of mist shaped like a man, his scream was distant, and then even the mist was gone."

 

Moridin knows the philosphical theory behind soul movement, he has practiced it, and experienced it. Yet your theory seems to suggest that the body swap will happen by accident. You need to account for how the most knowlegeable, skilled, and powerful soul swapper in the books will allow himself to be swapped by accident.

 

 

Lastly, my one thought that may help to confirm your theory. We still don't know what makes the children of Avhienda as viewed by Min seem strange. The biological children of a Randsoul/Moridinbody after TG might explain the oddity of Min's viewing.

 

I can't resist the urge to point out however, that this theory has as little evidence pointing to its eventuality as some others I have read. It is wonderfully supported as to how it COULD happen, but nothing I have read suggests that it will or must. It is ironic to me that were we discussing a topic that must happen by series end, say the reunification of Mat with the Horn of Valere :lol: , you would be working at least this hard to find problems with how it MUST happen as you have finding reasons why a bodyswap COULD. :P

[Mercer]

Lastly' date=' my one thought that may help to confirm your theory. We still don't know what makes the children of Avhienda as viewed by Min seem strange. The biological children of a Randsoul/Moridinbody after TG might explain the oddity of Min's viewing.

[/quote']

I was thinking on this too...and was wondering if the viewing meant for sure that all four would be 'strange'...I mean, if Aviendha later had two of Rand's kids, and Elayne died...meaning Aviendha would, naturally, be the one to take over care of the children in the absence of Rand. 2 of the kids surely could be deemed 'strange' when viewed with Aviendha, then.

[olio]

I think the body swap ties in to. The whole thing with Alivia helping Rand die IMO it is... that she will kill him rand will ask her to do it... He said he most die to win the last battle as a thing the Aelfinn told him. But, not befor Nynaeve or Cadsuane learns how to bring people back from the dead from Semirhage.. since she knows how to... since that is the reason why she went to the shadow.. it will then clear LT from his head and bring sanity back to Rand.. And it will destroy LT out of his head, being that one man dies. Or meld them in a way it did mat and his memories of all the generals in his previouse life... which goes to minds viewing of him and another man becoming one... and then he can fight the last battle with out sickness or LT is his head trying to take control.. And the wounds in his side Will be gone...

[cloglord]

:evil: HEy guys, here's what I think is gonna happen.I think that Rand will be killed by Alivia by accident, when Rand forgets to knock and walks in on her in her bath. Nynaeve will go crazy with grief, and immediately retire into the kin. Since kinswomen can't be married, she will divorce Lan which will cause him to go alone into the blight to fight his own personal war with the blight. THere he will meet Isam. They will fight, but Lan's sorrow at losing his true love, and the fact that Isam looks like his long lost uncle will ultimately cause him to lose, and lie mortally wounded deep in the blight. Sensing Lan's need the tree left by the greenman's death will materialize, and loial will use his treesinging abilities to merge the greenman tree with Lan, thus saving his life, and transforming him into the green knight of aurthurian legend. Lan will then travel to Tar Valon to challenge Gawyn to single combat, as per the legend, where Gawyn will die. The grief of this will cause Egwene to draw too much of the OP and melt the white tower into a heap of slag. Meanwhile, Elayne hearing of the death of her love and her brother will travel to Shayol Ghul with her handy wardknife. There she will give birth to twin sons one of which will be Rand beborn and the other will be Gaidal Cain. Baby Rand will retain all of the memories of Lews Therin and will crawl under the pointy stalagtite thingies down into the pit of doom to give the DO a big hug. As cute babies are the antithesis of all the DO stands for he will flee, and seal the bore shut behind himself, beginning a new age. :?

 

I remember when theories had some sort of reasoning or sound argument behind them. Then again maybe I'm just in a bad mood.

[Luckers]

Cloglord, the body swap theory originally came about as an answer that fits various prophesized events... and you claim a lack of evidence... the nature of the evolution of this theory defies your assertion.

 

Specifically, the various prophetic inidcations of a certain strangeness about Rands death... his body on a pyre crumbling to ashes, Egwenes dreams of women mourning a man who was not yet dead, the finns answer that to live he must dies, Mins prophecy that Alivia will help rand die, with the relative importance placed on the fact that it is phrased as 'help him die'. This all suggests something beyond or more complicated then Rand simply dying is going to occur.

 

People suggested, at this time, that Rand might fake his death. Yet this to me seemed unsubstantiated. The prophetic ability of various characters is not subjective to personal opinion... poeple BELIEVING Rand dead does not answer the onus of death established in prophecy. Yet at the same time the implication of life following this death also seems to be required by the various prophecies.

 

So people suggested maybe it refers to the next incarnation of the Dragon. This too seemed unlikely to me. The prophecies seem to suggest to me that they are speaking specifically of the ongoing life of the current facet personality of the soul - Rand specifically. Conjecture on my part, perhaps... and certainly ill concede its interprative... yet when combining the Finns comments with Egwenes dream of mourning a man that still lived... well it seems more immediate.

 

I came to a problem that you raised... theories not fitting all the evidence. So i concidered what was, seemingly, by my deductions, required.

 

Specifically by prophecies (only related to Rands death itself) it seemed this was required.

 

1. That Rand physically die, and that this death result from a concerted and intentional action by Rand himself, and Alivia.

2. That despite this, Rand lives on.

 

I was stumped, at this stage, as to how this could occur. Then i widened the evidence pool i had avalliable, and concidered two other facts. One, the increasingly strong link between Rand and Moridin, added to this Min's vision of two men joining, and one living and one dying... and i came up with the bodyswap.

 

Your assertion of a lack of evidence strikes me as absurd... this was a theory constructed to answer evidence of what we know will happen. In that evidence is the establishment of its likliness. From that point evidentiary support is required only in proving whether its possible. Did you even really read this thread, because i have raised all such points before.

 

I have stated why i think this will happen, and why i think it can happen, and at all stages i offered my evidentiary reasoning for those thoughts... im sorry but your attack is unfounded. Not if you actually wish to address any points i have raised as to its likliness or possible application, or offer an alternative with reasoning for that scenario, go for it. But the attempt to subjectively dismiss something you clearly made no attempt to actually understand or investigate is pathetic.

 

Or maybe im just in a bad mood...

 

Now as to the points you've raised.

 

On Alivia, iagree the Rand has some idea in mind for what that prophecy means. In large part Rand has resigned himself to the idea that he must die... his death, from his point of view, is required for the success of the Light. To his mind Min's vision provides him with a tool to attain his ends... the overall victory of the light.

 

That does not mean his interpretation is right. In this case he has been telling himself he must die for some time now. In many ways he has needed to, for he expects it, and if he allowed himself to concider alternative interpretations it would weaken him. Additionally he had no reason to concider alternatives. He has no way to predict a bodyswap situation, and he certainly isn't planning on swapping bodies with Moridin.

 

The same goes for Moridin. He certainly seems aware of the link between himself and Rand, and fears it. It is my belief that the new no-kill order is the result of that fear (Moridin would certainly have reason to fear the death of someone mentally linked to him, given what happens to the warders), and the fact that he no longer seems to channel saidin at all (something which seems to strengthen the link between them).

 

So for all of Moridin's knowledge, he seemingly has no ability to sever this link, or control it (judging by his expression when Rand percieves him). So yes, whilst Moridin knows alot about souls, i dont see that that knowledge is affording him any real protection from this link, and if he cant stop the weak effects of that link now, i dont see him have much more success against the effects of that link as they grow stronger.

 

My guess... battle comes, Rand fights Moridin, Rand severs Moridin from the Dark One, and Moridin is forced to draw on saidin. Their close physical proximity, as well as them both drawing on sadin facilitates the bodyswap occuring. Without intention.

 

Other possibilities is that one or the other backs the other into a corner. My guess is that Moridin backs Rand itno a corner, but it could be the other way round. The cornered one might even be severed by this stage and in a desperate attempt to kill their advessary/save their life the cornered one jumpes on the mental connection, and this results in the bodyswap...

 

One thing i will state, i dont think it will come as the result of planning. Which i why i think the issue of Alivia and rands intentions are irrelevant.

 

 

On the matter of Aviendha's children, i have long agreed with your thought on the matter... though their nature as quadriplets also seemed significant to their strangeness.

[cloglord]

Luckers, I think I owe you an apology. My tirade was not directed at you or your theory, it was instead aimed at the posts that occurred between it and my last. I was disapointed that a thread, discussing a theory that is as well reasoned as yours with as much thought as you have obviously put into it, would be subjected to such off the cuff responses. It was responses like this rambling run-on that sparked my ire.

 

"But, not befor Nynaeve or Cadsuane learns how to bring people back from the dead from Semirhage.. since she knows how to... since that is the reason why she went to the shadow.. it will then clear LT from his head and bring sanity back to Rand.. And it will destroy LT out of his head, being that one man dies. Or meld them in a way it did mat and his memories of all the generals in his previouse life... which goes to minds viewing of him and another man becoming one... and then he can fight the last battle with out sickness or LT is his head trying to take control.. And the wounds in his side Will be gone..."

 

With that said, I understand your points. There is a wealth of circumstantial evidence from prophecies/viewings that something screwy is going to happen. In my earlier post I was merely pointing out that each of those viewings/prophecies have, as you yourself have mentioned, other possible outcomes. I do not feel that your arguments are completely sufficient to sway me definitively to your view of things. I will however say again that, I do not disagree with your theory. I am a bodyswap agnostic, the worst sort of fence sitter.

 

I am sorry if you think that I was attacking you or your theory, I am just occasionally taken with a bad case of snarkyness. You and a few others on this board have my respect as people dedicated to having a good and thourough debate, based on firm, or as firm as can be had, facts, and on well reasoned and defendable opinions.

[Luckers]

As was I, I think (you may have noticed. Sorry.)

 

Friends?

 

And I was never asking you bend to my theory, i just objected to the opinion that it was unsubstantiated by evidence. It's only a theory though, so obviously not doctrine.

[cloglord]

No problems.

 

It isn't that you aren't supporting your theory, it is that your support doesn't point to any definitive conclusion. It's not that your theory couldn't be true, its that it lacks that one good piece of evidence that makes it more likely than any other. I like it, but don't yet believe it. If i find that one thing, I'll let you know though.

[stoneface]

Actually, Cloglord's proposed ending sounds pretty good, except the obvious problem of Gaidal Cain having disappeared from TAR well before the proposed birth...

 

The "two men merging into one" reminds me of the Luc/Isam connection, with Luc (Rand's uncle) existing in the real world) and Isam (Lan's cousin) existing in TAR. How that happened is really confusing to me, but it could fit into the "body swap" theory. Of course, Luc reflected Isam's wounds, so we need a killing method that would only zap one and still (presumably) leave a body to bury. This is where Alivia steps in, but (presumably) not with balefire. Still, it can't be just like the Luc/Isam combination.

 

Truthfully, I would prefer a dramatic ending involving a desperate sneak attack at Shayol Ghul, Rand and Alivia linking and calling down a huge blast of the power that fries them, welds the Bore shut, and then Rand gets reborn as one of Elayne's babes. Oh, no body to bury... Oh, well.

 

Here's to happy endings!

[cloglord]

Let me point out, that my post above, was nothing more than a sarcastic response to other posts that I found to be subpar.

 

That not withstanding, stoneface, i do think that you may have hit on something. This is a long thread, and I do not care to re-read it again, simply to verify the fact that I belive that slayer was not used as an example of soulswapping by Luckers in the formulation if his theory.

 

One did live, and one died. Luckers, care to comment?

[cloglord]

I noticed something that might bolster this bodyswap theory the other day, and I thought I'd bring it up for discussion.

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

The part that struck my interest particularly was the Beggining of the second sentence. Red on black could mean as I had always assumed, red blood on a black rock, but what if it is a reference to Moridin's colors instead?

 

How's this for a hypothetical scenario? The bodyswap occurs, as postulated, just outside of shayol ghul. Presumably Rand would have to be at Shayol Ghul for his blood to stain the rock, and if Red on Black is a reference to Moridin, that would place him there as well. So the bodyswap occurrs just outside of the pit of dhoom, and Alivia kills Moridin in Rand's body. Thus the Dragon's blood would stain the rock. Now here's were it gets interesting. The prophecy says that in the pit of Dhoom, his blood will free man from the shadow. We know that the DO has incredible control over who can make it past the stalagtites and into the actual Pit of Dhoom. It seems pretty unlikely that the DO would allow Rand in, but if he were wearing Moridin's body, and Moridin's soul had not yet come by the DO it would explain why the dragon would be able to make it past the DO's last defenses.

 

If it were timed correctly it might even fulfill the first part of the prophecy. If Alivia killed Rand's body in the morning, then the first dawning of the day would be in Mourning over the apparent death of the Dragon Reborn, but after Rand in Moridin's body manages to defeat the DO/close up the bore, then Rand would be free to be reborn as a new man, without the weight of the world on his shoulders.

 

Just thought it was interesting.

[Zardi]

I don't think the DO would be fooled by Rand's soul wearing Moridin's body. The DO deals with souls. He regularly removes souls from bodies and replaces them with different souls. I think he'd be able to tell the difference.

 

As for the part that Rand would be free to be reborn: similar things have been suggested before, but I don't think it fits with what the Finns told Rand when he asked how he could survive TG. It's pretty much a given that Rand's soul will someday be reborn again, but that wouldn't be Rand surviving.

[cloglord]

I did not mean that Rand would die and be literally reborn in Moridin's body. I meant that by having a new body, Rand would have a second chance to be normal after the LB.

 

You are right, that the DO is a soul expert, but the DO has also exhibited a strange lack of knowledge as well as a strange ability to know things he shouldn't. The proof, of this scenario, such as it is, is negative. The DO has absolute control over his immediate environment. THe prophecy seems to indicate that Rand will be present within the confines of the pit of dhoom. If, as we know, channelling=death sentence within the pit of dhoom, what other ways does Rand have to get past the DO's defences and gain entrance to the one place that prophecy says that Rand can win? The options are limited, he can either sneak in, or be brought in by one of the forsaken. I can't think of a single way that Rand would be able to gain access otherwise.