Tarmon Gai'don. When Will It Begin? How Will It Be Launched? (Full Spoilers)

Blackhoof · January 17, 2010

It would be HORRIBLY lame, and the most unsatisfactory ending EVER! I think Logain will be commended for bravery, skilled leadership of the Asha'man (he will be the M'hael) yada yada, but Rand will be king of the world after he slays the Dark One.(i think he will kill the DO, i feel that something has to set this cycle of the wheel apart from all the others, i think that this is the end of the DO)

ed2funy · January 17, 2010

I think and want him to kill the DO, but I don't see him ruling the world.

He chose capable people to run the countries in stewardhip. One already a King at that!

Blackhoof · January 17, 2010

Well, he may not be king in name, but all those stewards owe allegiance to him, so, im a way, he does rule all those lands that have stewards in his name.

ed2funy · January 17, 2010

I know...

BUT, he set them up so that they could rule (with his blessing) even after he died (as he thinks he will). When he doesn't (as I don't think he will) he won't want that burden.

Sharaman · January 17, 2010

Yet another point of resemblance between LTT and Demandred - their love of proxies.

Eagle Prince · January 19, 2010

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle"

When I read that now, to me it means the great battle was Rand's battle with himself, but now its over the world still isn't done with battle. But, I think it still means what I always figured it meant, that there will be lots of battles after the Last Battle. I still like the new perspective on it though.

Blackhoof · January 21, 2010

There will still be loads of trollocs and darkfriends after the last battle, so the world will have to fight them.

MikeRiley · February 4, 2010

Why does Tarmon Gai'don have to be one fight? I made a post elsewhere an age or two ago suggestion it has been going on for a while.. will grab that. I'm probably wrong, but it's all how you look at it. Taken from the Structured forum, Knife of Dreams thread..

I just got on here to say something similar. When Rand cleansed Saidin in book 9, the hand on Tremalking melted. The Amayar had a belief that when the hand was destroyed it would mark the end of illusion, or as the sea folk put it in her news of the Amayar mass suicide, the end of the world. The Aiel refer to life as a dream. Knife of Dreams, end of illusion.. Both suggest the end of the world. Tarmon Gai'don itself could be called a knife of dreams, so perhaps the title means Tarmon Gai'don is already happening? Rand thinks he's going to start it and he's moving his men in large numbers and gathering supplies to one spot.. but we see tens of thousands of trollocs attack and the end of the Shaido in a large battle. The chaos spread by the forsaken at the Dark One's order suggests as well that Tarmon Gai'don will involve infighting among the good guys as much as them fighting the bad. You could call the battle at Shadar Logoth the opening blows of TG, though none of the characters would likely see it so; we see most of the forsaken at work against the Light's forces in an attack on what one of the forsaken referred to as the Dark One's greatest achievement.

So we'd have Crossroads of Twilight, a book that shows us exactly where each of the main characters is right at the moment Saidin was cleansed. This recapping I took as being the "crossroads" in the title and I always took the "twilight" to mean "the calm before the storm". The book shows us what each character was doing right when all Hell broke loose. Knife of Dreams would be the beginning of Tarmon Gai'don itself, followed by A Memory of Light - the middle and resealing of the Dark One, which would be followed by war cleaning up the mess. Something like that could and likely will last for years.

Then we have Verin saying the war isn't being fought the way Rand thinks it is, so it might not be a real battle at all. He couldn't win through brute force.

insane_ashaman · February 4, 2010

Then we have Verin saying the war isn't being fought the way Rand thinks it is, so it might not be a real battle at all. He couldn't win through brute force.

Hopefully this is the place to continue our discussion...Verin's blurb about how TG will be fought is a huge moment in the series. We know the boys are ta'veren but how this will help them fight the DO I'm still trying to figure out. We see Rand trying to control his ta'verenness in TGS, so I'm wondering if this is something that all the lads need to start to control, or submit to (continuing the duality theme), not just be suprised by the randomness of it. There are too many elements involved in this series (T'A'R, Ta'veren, One Power, True Power, Mordeth Power) for brute force to be how this plays out. The brute force battle will happen, but how the rest plays out I'm curious. I really wish we had the content of Verins letters!!!! ;D

FarShainMael · February 4, 2010

albright says:

Perhaps Rand will taint the DO's evil with Mordeth's evil somehow,
etc. He absolutely will not be able to make any progress without using some

form of "evil" power in some way. Either Moridin or Fain/Mordeth, or both

will be the key at TG

Perhaps all that is needed is Fain's dagger, not Fain himself. Much better

than a Gollum re-run. Tricky for Rand to get hold of it though.

And I agree, I think TG has already started. The stormclouds in the Prologue

of tGS are suggestive to say the least. And we've had a major Trolloc

incursion. Tylee's encounter with them shows her that she was wrong to

'dismiss them as superstition', something which surely would have been to

the DO's advantage, but that advantage is now lost - or discarded.

Sid · February 4, 2010

Then we have Verin saying the war isn't being fought the way Rand thinks it is, so it might not be a real battle at all. He couldn't win through brute force.

Hopefully this is the place to continue our discussion...Verin's blurb about how TG will be fought is a huge moment in the series. We know the boys are ta'veren but how this will help them fight the DO I'm still trying to figure out. We see Rand trying to control his ta'verenness in TGS, so I'm wondering if this is something that all the lads need to start to control, or submit to (continuing the duality theme), not just be suprised by the randomness of it. There are too many elements involved in this series (T'A'R, Ta'veren, One Power, True Power, Mordeth Power) for brute force to be how this plays out. The brute force battle will happen, but how the rest plays out I'm curious. I really wish we had the content of Verins letters!!!! ;D

Perhaps Egwene can pass Verin's theories along to Rand when they finally confront each other again. Perhaps she can let him know her anger, but then turn the confrontation into something resembling progress in the struggle against the DO. It might be the difference maker come Tarmon Gai'don.

But wait. This proposition involves not only unguarded communication between two important characters in the series, but they're not even the same gender. Clearly this idea is insanity.

I can't wait to see the letters Verin had either, simply because she seems to be one of only a few characters in the entire series that actually knows what's going on. She's like ta'veren personified.

Dreamwalker · February 4, 2010

It would be HORRIBLY lame, and the most unsatisfactory ending EVER! I think Logain will be commended for bravery, skilled leadership of the Asha'man (he will be the M'hael) yada yada, but Rand will be king of the world after he slays the Dark One.(i think he will kill the DO, i feel that something has to set this cycle of the wheel apart from all the others, i think that this is the end of the DO)

I think Logain getting the credit at least years afterward could be plausible. I could see that history may have him and Rand's separate characters become muddied into one as time passes (especially since Logain had also declared himself Dragon, it would be an easy thing to have get mixed up as time passes.) The series has lots of instances where history has kept getting further from the truth over time in this way.

I'm also a proponent of Rand living on but in Moridin's body at the end, so I think if he survives in this way he would live out the rest of his life more normally rather than ruling everything. He is very tired of that burden, and a new body with a different face that only his girls and a select few know is him would be the perfect opportunity to have a normal life. Rand's body dying and just disappearing after the battle would be one more reason that in history Logain could easily end up with all the credit if he lives on to great glory as the new M'Hael.

Sharaman · February 4, 2010

I think Rand would be perfectly happy to disappear into obscruity if he survives TG.

Unfortunately that may not be an option.

Ozzie Mat · February 5, 2010

But wait. This proposition involves not only unguarded communication between two important characters in the series, but they're not even the same gender. Clearly this idea is insanity.

Classic !!!

I think it is already starting with Perrin catching up with Galad on their way to Andor, Mat gets to Andor with the help of Verin and Rand may finally decide to check on the chick he got pregnant, (since he is a bit more sane) we may finally see the three come together, Mat may rescue Moiraine before Rand comes through as I understand the last book is pretty much fully about the last battle so they may all come together at the end of the last book to be right to go for the whole of the last book.

As people converge on Andor we may see logain gain his glory by sorting out the black tower although he wont kill taim til the last book, we will just see the new male dreadlords exposed as they flee the tower to join up with the missing black ajah or female dreadlords.

There are already trollocs spread over most of Randland with the seanchan coming into contact with them and so there maybe and increase in trolloc attacks to help prevent the light forming together as every region will have its own problems.

Just wonder how much the battle between dark rand / light rand is an example of the battle been fought not as Rand thinks, in reference to what Verin said. As well as mention how the dragon is tied to the land and spoilage is getting worse with Dark Rand but now with light Rand coming back into vogue will we see things like this turn around for the better.

FarShainMael · February 7, 2010

MikeRiley says:

Then we have Verin saying the war isn't being fought the way Rand thinks it is, so it might not be a real battle at all. He couldn't win through brute force.

More evidence that TG has already started..

I'm re-reading TGS and have reached Ch39. What Verin actually says is:

'I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be.' (emphasis added)

Verin says 'the battle' not 'the war' and speaks of it in the present tense, only then mentioning that Rand still thinks it's yet to come!

I also agree that the real TG is being fought on a different level than the merely physical.

Charlz Guybon · June 21, 2010

It would be HORRIBLY lame, and the most unsatisfactory ending EVER! I think Logain will be commended for bravery, skilled leadership of the Asha'man (he will be the M'hael) yada yada, but Rand will be king of the world after he slays the Dark One.(i think he will kill the DO, i feel that something has to set this cycle of the wheel apart from all the others, i think that this is the end of the DO)

Well thematically it would be quite appropriate if Logain stole the credit, but I definitely agree that it would be extremely unsatisfactory for me and the vast majority of the fanbase.

The Last Battle really began the moment the seals began to loosen and the Forsaken escape, but the characters will perceive it as beginning when the fighting starts at the Black Tower I think.

Blackhoof · June 30, 2010

now, just to be clear, when i said rand would be king of the world, i meant indirectly. He would have representatives or close friends/alllies running all the countries so that he is effectively ruling the whole land, but he will probably retire to a nice summerhouse with his three groupies and half-a-dozen kids when min and avi get pregnant. Its bound to happen, with all the action hes been getting with min lol.

bushboy · July 13, 2010

Logain's glory will very likely be as M'Hael, after the inevitable "cleansing" of the BT.

Rand's neglect of the Ways has been his biggest flaw so far, imo. Why oh why did he keep faffing around with the Seanchan when he had that ticking time-bomb on his doorstep? He'll end up regretting doing no more than sending Loial/Karldin around for certain.

Durinax · July 13, 2010

god I feel sorry for rand, he has to do so much and everyone just keeps picking out the flaws and saying their important (albeit some are)

like if he stopped his forsaken hunting to go to the BT and sort that out who knows how much more damage woudl have been done

Hadilmir · July 13, 2010

Incredibly long theory-post of the day time:

Tarmon Gai'don will be fought through hope. There will be massive battles with Rand at the fore and death
throughout the land, but nothing Rand or the forces of Light do will bring about the end. Belief and Order give
strength is quite literal, Rand will be a figurehead nothing more. The Dark One's prison is the Pattern, but
what is the Pattern?

The threads of the Pattern are individual atoms (quarks as the strands that make the threads) that are
singularities in every dimension except Time similar to how a hair appears to have only one dimension. The
difference for humans and creatures with souls is that the threads that make up their bodies are infused with
their conscious souls, their identities. This explains why balefire can cut like a sword through a wall, but
destroy an entire person even with only a finger balefired. The soul has a sense of self that ties every thread
of its body together. Which leads us to the next part-

T'A'R, the Unseen World, is normally accessible only by the mind/conscious/soul. While there, the mind is
dominant and things are only permanent if a person/soul would consider them permanent. By this, I'm willing to
say that T'A'R is in fact a collective subconscious. The lack of shadows is a product of human imagination.
Think of a place you went to as a teenager and see if the picture in your mind has shadows. To a Randlander, the
mind would have just consulted T'A'R subconsciously and those there would have felt the Unseen Eyes. The
subconscious is likely always touching T'A'R, giving permanence to the Unseen Eyes.

Back to the "Real Randland", and the nature of Ta'veren it begins to makes some sense that the Wheel is the
collective conscious. Where there is Order, or Belief, the Pattern remains orderly. The White Tower became
chaotic near the end, and the 'bubbles of evil' became near constant. In Perrin's camp and the Band we see very
little in the way of 'bubbles of evil' because they believe in their respective leader and a semblance of Order
is maintained. Finally, we move onto the why-

The Dark One is a product of human Evil. The collective shadow in the heart of mankind. Before Mierin drilled
the Bore, the Shadow was separate from the Pattern, similar to how T'A'R, the collective subconscious, is
currently separate from the Pattern. As the collective shadow, the Dark One needed men to rediscover Evil on
their own. His power is directly linked to Evil in the hearts of men, because that is what he is. This explains
why it took so long for his presence to be noticed after the Bore was drilled. He was powerless because greater
Evil did not exist in mankind and he could not create evil, only allow the potential he represented to echo
against the petty evils and cause them to grow through the Bore. Now you may ask, What does that make the True
Power?-

The True Power is the corrupted True Source. The True Source is the Power of the Wheel because the Wheel is
collective conscious of all beings with souls and thus neutral. Men and Women are different but similarly
neutral just as Saidin and Saidar are similar yet different. Since Evil corrupts regardless of gender, the
corrupted form of Saidar and Saidin is the same essence.

So how do you lock away something that is a part of every being with a soul? I dunno. Rand is just a figurehead
the collective conscious spun out to give an object to believe in, but maybe he'll also play some small part in
locking away the Dark One once it has been defeated. That is how the Dragon and the Champion of the Light can be
different people, one is a figurehead and the other is a temporary title for whomever the majority belief in.
The Dragon is often the Champion of Light, but another can become the CoL if the Dragon is turned.

If you read all of that, congratulations. Let the deconstructive criticism begin. :)

Charles_Darwin · July 14, 2010

So how much time do you reckon is left? Do you think it will be one big invasion, or a multi-pronged attack? And where do you think the attacks will come from? Tarwin's Gap only? Through the Shadow's Lance? If so will Inturalde still be around to meet it in Saldaea? How will the Ways be involved? Is it possible the Light might launch the first blows?

Tarmon Gai'don has already begun. And the Dark One is working through: Rand. Remember the Dark Halo around Rand? And i believe i read an interview with RJ/BS that the food spoilage increase and 'evil happenings' in the World are directly linked to the dark personality of Rand. (words may be different, but message similar) Also, the random events around Rand used to be balanced, now only evil stuff happens!

Also, Moridin, which is closest to the DO of all the Forsaken, tells them to NOT kill Rand. This means the DO has plans for Rand, is working through Rand on evil schemes.

Verin, as posters before me pointed out, confirms this by telling that the nature of Tarmon Gaidon may be different to what Rand expects. (full scale army battles)

So the battle has already begun, but 'shit will hit the fan' when Rand breaks the Seals.

I think it will be like Min foretold in tEoTW: a great darkness, and all those lights trying to fill it. That means imo that people will fight the shadow in their own specific ways. Perrin in TAR; Rand vs. Moridin/SH/DO; Mat with his Dragons + Lan + armies vs. Trolloc Armies from the Blight etc.

Dreamwalker · July 15, 2010