Blade of Light, Three Become One. (Full Spoilers).

[Calderis]

But Moss, If rand were balefired, his thread would cease to exist, and he wouldn't be in TAR.

[mossman87]

But Moss, If rand were balefired, his thread would cease to exist, and he wouldn't be in TAR.

 

No, balefired people are still reborn.

 

I also thought that balefire burned your thread gone, but that's not the case.

 

Edit:

http://z6.invisionfree.com/White_Tower_Library/index.php?showtopic=208&view=findpost&p=1157204

It was...mentioned that balefire does not mean that someone can’t be reborn into the Pattern. I was very surprised by this and hadn’t heard it before, but apparently Brandon has said it in previous Q&A sessions. Brandon said he was also surprised but that Maria was very insistent about this – so if the Dragon Reborn was balefired, he could still be reborn.

[Calderis]

That bothers me...

 

Not sayin your wrong, just sayin that it goes against what balefire does. I even think in the story they've said it destroys the soul and stops rebirth. Hell, I think Nyn made comments about that after the whole Balefire incident in tGS.

 

that... I'll have to do some research on this, cause that's very counter to the nature of balefire as estabilished.

[mossman87]

Nah, RJ has said it as well.

 

Here in 1996:

http://linuxmafia.com/~pam/POD_signings.html#la

 

Balefire: If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them.  But they CAN be spun back out into the Pattern as normal.  Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul.  He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.  There was a long line, so I didn't press.

 

and here in 1999:

 

Q:  Balefire is one of the most confusing things in the book, for me. I find the fine aspects of it, the whole threading together of the things that work in it... Could you be a little more elaborate on that?

RJ: All right. The cosmography we're looking at here, is not the cosmography of here and now. The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out. It depends on how hot the flame is how far it's going to burn back and what the material is opposed to. It burns up a little bit, it doesn't just catch fire on the end and go out. So that person that was hit here is burned out of the pattern back to here. What that person did between here and here was no longer done. Other people remember seeing it. They may remember the supposed effects of it but what that person did wasn't done. It didn't happen, it's not real. Now that's a little bit of a shiver on the fabric of reality as it is. The reason that there was an unofficial agreement in the War of the Shadow to not use balefire any more, to stop using it, was simply that several cities were destroyed in that way. Hundreds of thousands of threads were burnt out from the pattern in one go and the fabric of reality began to unravel. And even the guys going for the Dark One knew that there's not a whole lot of point to winning if winning means there's nothing there to rule, nothing there to win. If you burnt out the stakes, forget it. Have I made it a little clearer I hope?

Q:  I was really referring to the scene where the wall falls on them and Rand uses balefire and they all come back to life. There's a prophecy about Mat how he was going to die and I'm not sure whether that incident is where he dies or not.

RJ:  Well you're not supposed to be, are you! Once, Mat was hanging by his neck and Rand wasn't sure whether he caught a heartbeat or not. You see, the thing is Mat doesn't know. Mat thinks he's got a little ace in the hole but maybe he hasn't. Maybe he doesn't have that ace in the hole that he has a death to give yet, and still live, the way he thinks. Maybe. There's an acronym they use on the net, RAFO. Read and find out.

 

Also, the soul is immortal:

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Scifi.com_Chat_1_January,_2000

 

Moderator: Is the soul immortal in WoT? 

RJ: Yes, the soul is immortal."

[Calderis]

.... TY, that answers the questions I was having, but now I'm wondering why they aren't able to be reincarnated by the DO.

 

It's been shown obviously, that death doesn't keep him from having a hold on his minions, so if balefire doesn't destroy the soul, why does it keep them out of his hands?

 

Answers are awesome, but I hate how they make more questions.

 

Anyways, I know there's a balefire thread so I'll stop talkin about this now...

[entropic]

I was thinking that maybe our understanding of Callandor's nature is a bit off. This is gonna sound crazy, (bear with me) but what if Callandor can enable Rand to draw more than the Choedan Kal? What if the lack of a buffer and the need to link with two females alters its nature? IIRC, Cadsuane says the lack of a buffer makes it easily possible for a man to draw way more saidin than is safe. It is possible that since there is no buffer that once Rand is in a linked circle with two females he can draw on more of the power than before because it is going into the collective power of all three (the women are the buffer). Does this make any sense? I need to develop this theory a bit more, but I thought it could be quite possible.

(This could also be the important thing we missed in books 4-6)

[mossman87]

.... TY, that answers the questions I was having, but now I'm wondering why they aren't able to be reincarnated by the DO.

 

It's been shown obviously, that death doesn't keep him from having a hold on his minions, so if balefire doesn't destroy the soul, why does it keep them out of his hands?

 

Answers are awesome, but I hate how they make more questions.

 

Anyways, I know there's a balefire thread so I'll stop talkin about this now...

 

Yeah this is derailing, so I'll post this response and end it.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

One of the other constraints is Mashadar somehow tainting Sammael:

http://z6.invisionfree.com/White_Tower_Library/index.php?showtopic=208&view=findpost&p=1157204

Brandon...said that the Dark One would have liked very much to transmigrate Sammael but didn’t. Apparently, since he died by Mashadar, Sammael was either unable to be transmigrated or it would have been a very bad idea. Basically, Mashadar tainted Sammael’s thread somehow.

 

I'm assuming since the DO and Mordeth are two evils that are polar opposites, it'd be like the Cleansing and cause sparks if the DO tried touching Sammael's soul, this is assuming the True Power is the essence of the DO, which I believe.

 

K derail over.

[dnfleming]

First time poster, haven't read many threads, so I apologize if you've heard this before.  This probably belongs in another thread but I thought I'd say it after reading mossmans post.  Here's my version of how things might go.

 

I've always kind of had similar thoughts that mossman mentioned about Rand dying and TAR, except I think along the lines of a connection with the horn of valere.  Remember in book 2, Hawkwing recognized LT even though they had never met physically before.  The dragon was in TaR before being reborn as Rand, and it seems to reason that he will return to TaR when he dies. 

I don't think Fel's passage about clearing the rubble before rebuilding refers to breaking the final seals, but Rand and Min think it does, and I think he's going to die for it at the very start of TG.  So, if he dies after he breaks the final seals but before the battle is finished (perhaps incorporating some of the other ideas mentioned here with callandor, 3 into 1, and fain), things would look bleak indeed, with the dark one stepping fully into the world.

 

If Matt shortly thereafter blows the horn, Rand/LT would return leading all of the heroes bound to the wheel, which probably includes every ta'varen ever spun out by the wheel, when counting Matt and Perrin too. 

 

Sidenote: Also in book 2, Hawkwing said he had fought against the dragon as many times as he had fought by his side. A reference to the dragon fighting for the shadow in some turnings of the wheel as Ishamael had said?) 

 

At any rate, if he dies and is called by the horn, he would return as the dragon in the full sense of the term, in that he would now have knowledge of all of his previous incarnations, not just LT, through countless turnings of the wheel.  Something that might be different from any other time the battle has been fought before.

 

The idea of ta'varen has played too central a part to not have the pivotal role at TG.  In many ways, it is more important than being able to channel.  LT said the CK should never have been made, saying "brute force" wasn't the key to sealing the dark one.  This implies to me, that callandor, while it probably has some important role to play, is not the key to winning TG either, since as far as we know, it's another object of brute force. I highly suspect that in the end the OP or TP will not be a key to winning at all.  The pattern does not spin out channelers to correct things, it spins out Ta'varen.

 

Rand seems to believe he now is Ta'varen to such extent he can change the pattern just by willing it to happen. 

Perhaps if all the ta'varen of the wheel are gathered at SG, the pattern will twist to the point he really wields that power.  Up to now, with the seals weakened, the dark one's touch on the world has had a sort of evil ta'veren effect, twisting the pattern in harmful ways.  When the seals are broken, he will be able to freely do whatever he wants to the pattern.  The counter to that would not be the OP, or the TP, but someone who has the ability to alter the pattern themselves, struggling to push the dark one back outside of the pattern and attempt to fix the rip. There's no need to shield the power from touching the dark one or worry about it being tainted as it wouldn't be that kind of fight at all.

 

At this point, I think Rand will realize what Fel meant by clearing the "rubble" in the sense that the pattern in its current form could never be fixed perfectly after the bore, and that it must be rewoven. The struggle will then be to reweave the pattern, the dark one in his image (or to just destroy it) and Rand to reweave it with the dark one completely outside of it.

Perhaps while that battle is going on,the rest of the world will be doing the flicker.. flicker.. flicker..thing as the world changes and breaks around them as the wheel groans from the struggle.  At the end of it, the day dawns twice not because of some balefire effect, but because the pattern has been rewoven, not simply repairing the rip, but erasing it like it never was, but breaking the world in the process.  So the first dawn begins with the dragons seeming death and the dark ones victory, but the second dawn is the patterns rebirth and renewal as the wheel turns again.

[WolfDragonFox]

Not bad at all for your first post, once again this is more to think on.  There also has to be some effect on all three ta'varen Rand Mat and Perrin being there all at once, like when Min sees more than one of them together the tiny lights she sees around them are more numerous when being swallowed by the blackness so hopefully the reborn Rand, or die to live Rand will be without the TP influence and I'm hoping his dark aura is gone in ToM but maybe it won't be so if he is indeed reborn he won't have that so the three can then beat back the shadow in unison.

[mossman87]

That could definitely work, but for me one of the big themes in the WoT is just because we think something is impossible doesn't make it so, and the reason a lot of things are "impossible" is because we make ourselves believe it so.  The constant mentions of Nynaeve "healing someone 3 days dead", makes me hope Rand is actually "resurrected", and not just brought back temporarily from the Horn.

 

If he comes back because the Horn is blown then he'll go back to T'a'R' after their purpose is fulfilled, which is always a possibility, it's more of a hope of mine that Rand will have a life after Tarmon Gaiden, but that certainly doesn't have to be the case.

 

To me, it's just right there in front of us that Nynaeve, the one who's always been talked about healing death, and Rand's closest ally has seen that process already, and has been mentioned as picking up on things after only seeing it done once.  Really, Birgitte was definitely 'dead', or in purgatory if you will, at the time Moghedien ripped her out of TaR and made her a living person, that's resurrecting a dead person if I ever saw it, and the fact it was Nynaeve that saw it happen just screams out to me.

[Sentinel78]

Sidenote: Also in book 2, Hawkwing said he had fought against the dragon as many times as he had fought by his side. A reference to the dragon fighting for the shadow in some turnings of the wheel as Ishamael had said?) 

 

RJ was asked about Hawkwing's comment about fighting against LTT in other Ages.  RJ indicated that this would have occurred in Ages where Rand was reborn where the DO did not need to be fought.  Ta'veren are Pattern-correction mechanisms, and Rand likely gets up to other things when the DO is not his main enemy.

[mossman87]

Sidenote: Also in book 2, Hawkwing said he had fought against the dragon as many times as he had fought by his side. A reference to the dragon fighting for the shadow in some turnings of the wheel as Ishamael had said?)  

 

RJ was asked about Hawkwing's comment about fighting against LTT in other Ages.  RJ indicated that this would have occurred in Ages where Rand was reborn where the DO did not need to be fought.  Ta'veren are Pattern-correction mechanisms, and Rand likely gets up to other things when the DO is not his main enemy.

 

Yeah, the Pattern is a neutral entity that works on balance to keep it intact.  As such, the Pattern doesn't view Artur Hawkwing as Good, or Bad, his soul is simply a tool to correct an imbalance in the Pattern.  That's how I take it anyway from all the Q&As.

 

Edit: This could help explain more, it's NFL Sunday so my mind is wandering.

 

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

 

Also:

 

RJ: Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

So what I've always taken from that is, if the Dragon soul really did work for the Dark in one Age, the Pattern would spin out the Heroes to correct it, fighting the Dragon and bring the balance back.  And since the Pattern doesn't view things in a Good or Bad way, it doesn't make much difference to it who's fighting who.

[Toss3]

I've always kind of had similar thoughts that mossman mentioned about Rand dying and TAR, except I think along the lines of a connection with the horn of valere.  Remember in book 2, Hawkwing recognized LT even though they had never met physically before.  The dragon was in TaR before being reborn as Rand, and it seems to reason that he will return to TaR when he dies. 

I don't think Fel's passage about clearing the rubble before rebuilding refers to breaking the final seals, but Rand and Min think it does, and I think he's going to die for it at the very start of TG.  So, if he dies after he breaks the final seals but before the battle is finished (perhaps incorporating some of the other ideas mentioned here with callandor, 3 into 1, and fain), things would look bleak indeed, with the dark one stepping fully into the world.

 

If Matt shortly thereafter blows the horn, Rand/LT would return leading all of the heroes bound to the wheel, which probably includes every ta'varen ever spun out by the wheel, when counting Matt and Perrin too. 

 

Sidenote: Also in book 2, Hawkwing said he had fought against the dragon as many times as he had fought by his side. A reference to the dragon fighting for the shadow in some turnings of the wheel as Ishamael had said?) 

 

At any rate, if he dies and is called by the horn, he would return as the dragon in the full sense of the term, in that he would now have knowledge of all of his previous incarnations, not just LT, through countless turnings of the wheel.  Something that might be different from any other time the battle has been fought before.

 

You're really Brandon in disguise, aren't you?  :D

 

Would make a lot of sense, but we can't know for sure if the dragon has ever faced closing the bore before LTT. So it wouldn't matter if he had all of their combined knowledge when none have any idea of how to do it(LTT knew much more than Rand and even he didn't know how to do it properly).

[dnfleming]

Thanks for the replies. 

 

but we can't know for sure if the dragon has ever faced closing the bore before LTT. So it wouldn't matter if he had all of their combined knowledge when none have any idea of how to do it(LTT knew much more than Rand and even he didn't know how to do it properly).

 

We don’t know for sure, but Fel seemed to think there was a bore made once for each  complete turn of the wheel.  He says as much in LoC.  Men have forgotten there is a dark one.  A bore is made.  The dark one becomes known.  By the time the wheel rolls around again, the bore isn’t just patched, but the pattern is completely pristine again and men have forgotten the dark one existed.  As Fel said, they wouldn’t be boring a new hole through an ages old patch each time.

 

That’s bugged me for about 10 years, and I’ve thought for the majority of the time that the power wouldn’t be the solution, since it would just be another patch and LT said in the prologue of tEofW that his mistake was thinking men could match the creator and mend the pattern with the one power.  Two things in tGs have made me think this is quite likely.

 

The statement Verin made in tGS that “Even after decades of study, I can't be certain exactly what he (the dark one) wants or why he wants it. I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be".  Rand is thoroughly convinced the power is required in fighting the dark one and sealing the bore (Though LT seems not so sure). That statement could mean other things though.

 

LTs comments in tGS about their patching being doomed to fail, and brute force not working, reinforces my thoughts that the entire strike by the hundred companions was based on false premises, namely that the bore could be fully repaired by means of the source.  I don’t think LTs comments were regarding saidin being used without saidar, as it would have also been tainted when used.

 

When LT talks of there being no buffer to attach the patch to, and that it was attached directly to the dark one, I agree that Fain or maybe the ruby dagger would be a good plot device as a buffer, but I still think this is incomplete.  The real “buffer” to me is the pattern itself.

 

I’ve always thought the yin-yang to be symbolic of RJs world.  The white represents the creator, the black is the dark one, and the sinuous line between is the buffer between the two, that is, the pattern.  Therefore the creator and dark one are the only things outside the pattern.

 

To me, when the bore was made, it possibly also opened the way to the creator as well, hence the ability to hear the creator’s voice in tEofW.  But he refuses to take part, leaving it to the chosen one.  The dark ones true motives if he wants to destroy the pattern, then, would be to completely remove the buffer between himself and the creator.  There is no direct evidence he can do this from without, hence why he didn’t do it during the war of shadow after the bore was made, but that it requires human surrogates to destroy the pattern.

 

I think Lanfear visited the Aelfinn and Eelfinn during the AoL and inquired about acquiring more power.  They revealed the existence of the true power, that was outside of the pattern at that time.  I can’t think of any other really plausible way the ancient AS could have come up with the knowledge of some new power completely outside the pattern and undreamt of without someone else’s guidance.  But the snakes & foxes answer didn’t reveal that the true power was the dark ones essence.  This would also possibly explain why Lanfear died returning through the doorway te’rangeal (a second visit) and Moiraine didn’t, but also opens the thought of how Matt will avoid dying during a second visit (breaking the rules).

 

Back to “a sword of light, and the three shall become one”, I also don’t think it’s “the sword that is not a sword” and that it probably refers to the sword of light from tEofW.  Ishamael feared it as if it was the Light itself.  Everytime I read the chapter Against the Shadow, from tEoftW, I always think there is something special about the eye that is important that I’m just not quite grasping.  The descriptions in that chapter are unlike any others when a male uses the one power, and have never been used since.  They aren’t about feeling infused with life or heightened sense of awareness or all the normal things, but as if Rand is filled with the power of the Light itself, not simply a large amount of clean saidin.  And some event in that chapter triggers the creator himself to speak.

 

All other things being equal, I like explanations that originate from the tEofW, since the ending of the series was already set at that time.

 

Another alternative that I like besides the one I mentioned in my first post about ta’varen, is that the final fight will be between the two champions, Rand and Moridin. Moridin will be using the true power (dark one’s essence), and in this one instance at SG, where the physical world comes closest to the bore, Rand will have access to the creator’s essence.  Hence the power of the creator will be in combat with the power of the dark one. (Still keeping with the creator’s statement that he will not directly intervene.)

 

Rand wielding the power of creation for a brief time would also enable him to reweave the pattern pristine again, and would immediately shut-off access to the dark one or creator to all humans.  This makes sense, in that the power of creation created the pattern, and only the power of creation could restore the pattern.

 

I sometimes wonder if in addition to the pure saidin at the eye, Rand tapped into the creator’s essence there, causing the creator to become aware of what was going on and that Rand was using it to destroy the trollocs at the gap, prompting him to say “It is not here”, as in the battle is not here, but at SG during TG.

 

[ed2funy]

I was about to ask when the hell the creator spoke...but thanks for that quote...

i will check my book right now....i totally forgot about that part....

[Toss3]

Back to “a sword of light, and the three shall become one”, I also don’t think it’s “the sword that is not a sword” and that it probably refers to the sword of light from tEofW.  Ishamael feared it as if it was the Light itself.  Everytime I read the chapter Against the Shadow, from tEoftW, I always think there is something special about the eye that is important that I’m just not quite grasping.  The descriptions in that chapter are unlike any others when a male uses the one power, and have never been used since.  They aren’t about feeling infused with life or heightened sense of awareness or all the normal things, but as if Rand is filled with the power of the Light itself, not simply a large amount of clean saidin.  And some event in that chapter triggers the creator himself to speak.

 

All other things being equal, I like explanations that originate from the tEofW, since the ending of the series was already set at that time.

 

Another alternative that I like besides the one I mentioned in my first post about ta’varen, is that the final fight will be between the two champions, Rand and Moridin. Moridin will be using the true power (dark one’s essence), and in this one instance at SG, where the physical world comes closest to the bore, Rand will have access to the creator’s essence.  Hence the power of the creator will be in combat with the power of the dark one. (Still keeping with the creator’s statement that he will not directly intervene.)

 

Rand wielding the power of creation for a brief time would also enable him to reweave the pattern pristine again, and would immediately shut-off access to the dark one or creator to all humans.  This makes sense, in that the power of creation created the pattern, and only the power of creation could restore the pattern.

 

I sometimes wonder if in addition to the pure saidin at the eye, Rand tapped into the creator’s essence there, causing the creator to become aware of what was going on and that Rand was using it to destroy the trollocs at the gap, prompting him to say “It is not here”, as in the battle is not here, but at SG during TG.

 

Honestly the "three become one" thing is quite certainly a metaphor for Callandor; it needs three channelers in order to work properly.

 

I really doubt that he tapped into the Creator's essence when he channeled the pure saidin from the Eye. Ishmael himself says that "You cannot wield it like that. Not until I teach you." so he clearly knows that it is saidin that's being channeled(a sword of balefire perhaps?). Another thing that speaks against your bore theory is that Lanfear would have felt the creator's essence as well when she first felt the TP. If there was an even stronger power available don't you think they would have tried tapping into that instead of just freeing the DO? Also the creator wouldn't be trapped outside of his own creation, it just doesn't make any sense. He only intervenes at the end of tEotW because he has to stop Rand from making a huge mistake that could have lead to the destruction of everything(so much for not taking part).

 

Really interesting post even though I don't agree with you on everything! :)

[mossman87]

Thanks for the replies. 

 

When LT talks of there being no buffer to attach the patch to, and that it was attached directly to the dark one, I agree that Fain or maybe the ruby dagger would be a good plot device as a buffer, but I still think this is incomplete.  The real “buffer” to me is the pattern itself.

 

 

The True Power was detected because there was a thinness in the Pattern there (Shayol Ghul now).  They drilled through that thinness and got to that Power.  They just didn't realize it was the Dark One.

 

I always assumed that did mean the barrier was the Pattern.

[Sentinel78]

What's never explained is why there was a thinness to the Pattern there in the first place. 

[Express]

If Matt shortly thereafter blows the horn, Rand/LT would return leading all of the heroes bound to the wheel, which probably includes every ta'varen ever spun out by the wheel, when counting Matt and Perrin too.

 

I apologize upfront but this just doesn't make sense to me.  I don't remember reading anywhere that the "Dragon" was one of the Hero's. I could be wrong.

 

On the "Blade of Light," I was thinking that it was the Blade in the first book also but the "Three Become One" would be Rand and those he leads, Matt and those he leads (which could include the Seachan) and Perrin with those he leads all being in the same place at the same time to battle TG.  Sometimes when Min sees Rand she see's the light being swallowed up by the dark but when Perrin is with Rand the light holds it's own and if you add Matt then they will become one to push the dark out.

[dnfleming]

I don't think the books ever directly associate the dragon with the heroes, but it does say the dragon is spun out by the wheel, and Hawkwing recognizes the soul of LT in tGH, even going so far as to say they were called by the horn but must follow the dragon. So it stands to reason they know each other from TaR.

 

I like your ideas about the three become one.

[LordOfChaos]

If Matt shortly thereafter blows the horn, Rand/LT would return leading all of the heroes bound to the wheel, which probably includes every ta'varen ever spun out by the wheel, when counting Matt and Perrin too.

 

I apologize upfront but this just doesn't make sense to me.  I don't remember reading anywhere that the "Dragon" was one of the Hero's. I could be wrong.

 

On the "Blade of Light," I was thinking that it was the Blade in the first book also but the "Three Become One" would be Rand and those he leads, Matt and those he leads (which could include the Seachan) and Perrin with those he leads all being in the same place at the same time to battle TG.  Sometimes when Min sees Rand she see's the light being swallowed up by the dark but when Perrin is with Rand the light holds it's own and if you add Matt then they will become one to push the dark out.

That actually does make sense but I for one still think that it is Rand linking with a couple of women whom he trusts in order to perfectly wield Callandor. The Blade of Light would be Callandor and the Three Become One would be the three channelers linking.

[entropic]

That actually does make sense but I for one still think that it is Rand linking with a couple of women whom he trusts in order to perfectly wield Callandor. The Blade of Light would be Callandor and the Three Become One would be the three channelers linking.

 

I completely agree. That was my first assumption and what I thought to be completely obvious. I think we are really overthinking it.

[Mr Ares]

If Matt shortly thereafter blows the horn, Rand/LT would return leading all of the heroes bound to the wheel, which probably includes every ta'varen ever spun out by the wheel, when counting Matt and Perrin too.

No, ta'veren and Heroes are not the same thing. Both are partsof the pattern's self-coorecting mechanism, but different parts. One can be one or the other. Birgitte, for example, is not ta'veren (it would have been noticed if she was).

 

I apologize upfront but this just doesn't make sense to me.  I don't remember reading anywhere that the "Dragon" was one of the Hero's. I could be wrong.

The Dragon is part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism.

[lsm]

concerning nicola's first foretelling, assuming tarmon gaidon is won and the pattern isn't destroyed, her foretelling seemed to imply that after the last battle, rand will return with his 3 girlfriends. maybe elayne/avi being part of a circle isn't so far fetched afterall, but at the very least there's another 3 that may well be there

[mossman87]

If Matt shortly thereafter blows the horn, Rand/LT would return leading all of the heroes bound to the wheel, which probably includes every ta'varen ever spun out by the wheel, when counting Matt and Perrin too.

No, ta'veren and Heroes are not the same thing. Both are partsof the pattern's self-coorecting mechanism, but different parts. One can be one or the other. Birgitte, for example, is not ta'veren (it would have been noticed if she was).

 

I apologize upfront but this just doesn't make sense to me.  I don't remember reading anywhere that the "Dragon" was one of the Hero's. I could be wrong.

The Dragon is part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism.

 

Just one thing, since there's no confusion, your post is spot-on, except the Heroes CAN be Ta'veren as well, but aren't always.  Apologies if I read your post wrong and just misunderstood.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2645

Mato: ~laughs~ OK... Heroes of the Horn, are they corrective mechanisms by themselves, or are they corrective mechanisms by virtue of being ta'veren?

Sanderson: Heroes are not always ta'veren. So, yes, they are corrective mechanisms by themselves.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2646

I did get to ask a question Terez put me up to. His answer was no, Heroes of the Horn are not always ta'veren at all in their lifetimes when spun out. Sometimes, they even live normal lives and don't do anything extraordinary, like they sometimes spend their lives as farmers, etc.

 

Also Artur Hawkwing was a huge Ta'veren and we know he's a Hero of the Horn as well.