The Metaphysics of the Wheel

[Luckers]

For discussion of anything that makes the Wheel work. The Pattern, Ta'verenism, the Dark One, the Creator.

 

There is already a One Power/ter'angreal type of thread, so keep discussion of the One Power there thanks.

[smileyman]

Just to jump start things. Is the Wheel unbreakable? Must events always repeat themselves with souls being reborn. Is the DO forever going to be trying to fight his way out of Shayol Ghul. Is the Last Battle merely the Last Battle of the current Age?

 

Personally I think that the cycle can be broken. The DO seems to think so. He's trying to undo the Pattern completely, which has not been done before. If Rand can figure out how to break the cycle in the other direction he can lock the DO out of time and space forever (or even potentially destroy him).

 

I think that Moridin has given away to despair. He thinks that there's no way to break the cycle, so he's jumped ship to the Shadow because he sees the fight as futile. I do think that this Last Battle is the Last Battle (as far as battling the forces of the DO anyway). There will still be evil in the world because that's the way men are, but there won't be any great source directing them.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

The DO is Chaos.  Entropy.  Amoral rather than immoral.

 

The entire concept of morality simply would not compute to such a force.  It simply does what it feels it must.  It feeds its needs in much the same way that lions who bring down the baby kudu feed theirs.

 

The evil stems from those who seek to exploit those needs for their own ends.  Lacking a DO to justify their actions, such people will still exist and rationalize their behavior on the basis of some other imperative.  Always have and always will.

[smileyman]

The DO is Chaos.  Entropy.  Amoral rather than immoral.

 

The entire concept of morality simply would not compute to such a force.  It simply does what it feels it must.  It feeds its needs in much the same way that lions who bring down the baby kudu feed theirs.

 

The evil stems from those who seek to exploit those needs for their own ends.  Lacking a DO to justify their actions, such people will still exist and rationalize their behavior on the basis of some other imperative.  Always have and always will.

 

If the DO is chaos (which I happen to agree with), does that mean that the Creator is actually the Pattern itself? If you figure that the DO needs an opposite it won't be creation as that is often chaotic.

 

The very nature of a Pattern implies balance though. In fact the Pattern is constantly trying to achieve that balance and forcing people into certain situations to achieve that.

[MatrixM]

Does the pattern also seek a balance between order and chaos? Or just order? Because if the former, surely there was more order than chaos pre-War of the Shadow during the Age of Legends. Unless it seeks balance with the pattern as a whole (that is, all seven ages) and some ages are supposed chaotic (like ours and Rand's). Whcih seems to go against the purpose of taveren...

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's another triumvirate.

 

Creation, Preservation, Destruction.  Creator, Wheel, Shai'tan.

 

Important stuff seems to always come in groups of three in this series.

[smileyman]

Does the pattern also seek a balance between order and chaos? Or just order? Because if the former, surely there was more order than chaos pre-War of the Shadow during the Age of Legends. Unless it seeks balance with the pattern as a whole (that is, all seven ages) and some ages are supposed chaotic (like ours and Rand's). Whcih seems to go against the purpose of taveren...

 

Good question. We know that when a ta'veren comes to town you have freaky accidents on both sides of the spectrum--people falling off 3 story balconies and living, and harmless scratches turning into deadly wounds.

 

I've always thought that the Pattern was reacting to the DO's influence. The DO is trying to unmake the Pattern and destroy all creation forever. The Pattern is trying to counteract that specific. That's what's going on in the macro level anyway. On the micro level I'm not sure that the Pattern cares. Collateral damage as it were in moving the big pieces around.

[smileyman]

It's another triumvirate.

 

Creation, Preservation, Destruction.  Creator, Wheel, Shai'tan.

 

Important stuff seems to always come in groups of three in this series.

 

Despite RJ's contention that there is no religion because of the indisputable nature of deity in Randland (there is a DO, there is a Creator), we only know of one person who's got first-hand knowledge of the Creator (assuming that the voice at the end of tEotW is the Creator). Everybody else takes it on faith.

 

I can assume that we have a Deist type Creator who just sets things in motion then steps off, but what does that make the Pattern? Is it good? Evil? Neutral? Or are all three of them beyond human comprehension and neither good nor evil?

[ohaitharguiz]

I don't think the Creator is any sort of sentient being. The world of Randland seems to follow a ying-yang way of doing things. Everything has a counter. Good is met with evil, light with dark, so on and so forth. I also always found it too coincidental that the ying yang has a dot of dark in the light, and I always thought of that as Rand's wound. However, that is off topic.

[MatrixM]

So you're saying the opposite of a sentient being that wants to destroy everything is a non-sentient being that randomly creates stuff?

[smileyman]

So you're saying the opposite of a sentient being that wants to destroy everything is a non-sentient being that randomly creates stuff?

 

If anything the Creator is a Deist type of being. He created everything, wound the toy up, and then left.

 

Still doesn't explain where the Pattern comes from though, nor why it's purpose is to bring order.

[bushleague]

I seem to remember somewhere that the creator created everything, which includes the DO.  To balance him/herself maybe?  

 

So if Rand actually manages how to figure out how to kill the DO and the age ends, won't the creator just make a new DO, or revive the old one in order to maintain balance?  Maybe this has happened before and its how the DO is fully imprisoned by the creator every time the third age comes around again.

 

I don't know where I'm going with this, but maybe someone else will... I'll lay it out better.

 

AoL, dark one imprisoned but the bore is drilled, LTT seals the prison and taint occurs -----> prison sealed for 3000 years and seals begin to weaken, DO breaks free and Rand kills him. -----> Creator revives DO and he is fully imprisoned again, yet everyone thinks he's dead and AoL comes around again ----> DO once again freed by accident.

 

And so on, but you see where I'm going.  Of course there is probably more in between these events but this could be the answer to Rand's question of how to fully imprison the DO again.

[smileyman]

Remember, the litany about the Dark One was created after the Breaking. I'm not sure how to word this. It's very most likely wrong. During the Age of Legends they didn't even know about the Dark One. After the Breaking, the simple masses created a myth that the Dark One and his Forsaken have always been tucked away into their prison at the moment of creation. Which is, of course, preposterous. So the litany isn't much to go on.

 

This is a very good point. RJ has stated that one of the main points in the books is that what we thought we knew was true isn't necessarily so. Is there actually a DO at all? Are the Forsaken deluded too? Can someone become the DO (thinking in particular of Padan Fain here)?

 

 

[bushleague]

Remember, the litany about the Dark One was created after the Breaking. I'm not sure how to word this. It's very most likely wrong. During the Age of Legends they didn't even know about the Dark One. After the Breaking, the simple masses created a myth that the Dark One and his Forsaken have always been tucked away into their prison at the moment of creation. Which is, of course, preposterous. So the litany isn't much to go on.

 

This is a very good point. RJ has stated that one of the main points in the books is that what we thought we knew was true isn't necessarily so. Is there actually a DO at all? Are the Forsaken deluded too? Can someone become the DO (thinking in particular of Padan Fain here)?

 

 

 

This kind of adds to what I posted a second ago... if in the AoL they believed the DO to be dead and therefore forgot/dismissed him, and then accidently stumbled upon him, maybe its because he was killed in the age before and brought back by the creator.

 

Rand kills the DO, creator revives him (maybe as fain heh), nobody knows about it and the AoL comes back until the accidently find him again

[smileyman]

I seem to remember somewhere that the creator created everything, which includes the DO.  To balance him/herself maybe?  

 

The litany is that the world was Created and then the DO was sealed away, implying that the DO existed before the world was created. If the litany is wrong, then it's possible that after the world was created and the Pattern made, someone became so evil that they assumed the status of the DO.

 

We do know that Mashadar is not from the DO--it's a completely separate entity all together. Maybe there were competing forces and Shaitan won out and then he was sealed away only to be unsealed during the Breaking.

 

So if Rand actually manages how to figure out how to kill the DO and the age ends, won't the creator just make a new DO, or revive the old one in order to maintain balance?  Maybe this has happened before and its how the DO is fully imprisoned by the creator every time the third age comes around again.

I think that no matter what happens the Cycle ends when the books are done. Either the DO wins and the Pattern of reality is undone, or Rand wins and there is no active DO (nor Creator) influencing men.

[bushleague]

 

I think that no matter what happens the Cycle ends when the books are done. Either the DO wins and the Pattern of reality is undone, or Rand wins and there is no active DO (nor Creator) influencing men.

 

We want to believe that, and its the likely ending of the book... but I can definately see RJ looking down at us reading the ending and saying "Oh Christ, now we have to discuss this series more on dragonmount and theoryland..." and smiling at us.

 

Don't rule it out just because we want it to end :)

[MatrixM]

I think it's safe to say that there IS a Dark One, considering the taint, true power, crazy stuff going on (e.g stalactites in Shayul Ghul), Shaidar Haran, etc.

[bushleague]

I think it's safe to say that there IS a Dark One, considering the taint, true power, crazy stuff going on (e.g stalactites in Shayul Ghul), Shaidar Haran, etc.

 

BAHAHAH... nice.  Sorry I agree with you, its just that it seems EVERYTHING is debatable on these forums.  If theres one thing that we know for certain, its that the DO exists.  Dear God, I need sleep. I'll be back in the morning.

[smileyman]

I think it's safe to say that there IS a Dark One, considering the taint, true power, crazy stuff going on (e.g stalactites in Shayul Ghul), Shaidar Haran, etc.

 

Sure. I wasn't actually suggesting that there isn't a DO (well not seriously anyway--it was more of a conversation starter). I'm just finding it odd that if there's supposed to be a balance to things in Randland, why is it that there is no Creator actively involved? Instead we have this mysterious thing called the Pattern that acts on people.

 

Is the Pattern sentient? Is it amoral? Does it have a specific endgame, or is it simply a supercomputer that's keeping everything moving along?

 

All sorts of fun questions come up when you start talking metaphysics . . . ;D

[MatrixM]

I think that would be impossible to determine. It could be a sentient being with a desire to survive and so does what it needs to or it could be automated, like you said. It's certainly referred to as if it's alive, but that doesn't really determine anything.

[blackjon]

it doesn't actually seem logical that the DO can win, becuase any act that will lead to his freedom can always be countered by adding more wheel changing chumps like the big three to the mix.

 

Say rand was going to go nuts and blow himself up then another ta'veren could be created out of say Tam, which then twists chance so that just once in a billion rand listens to reason and guess what, he does!

 

it's enough to make you feel sorry for poor old Moridin. His plan to break everything is a good one, but the DO can never actually win...

he's better just finding a vacuole and ending it that way...

[AvroChris]

Why does the Creator not get directly involved? Well, we know that the Pattern is meant to be balanced. The Dark One is sealed away (ish), and is currently being countered (ish) by the Wheel's own corrective mechanisms. So the Creator doesn't really need to take a hand. Also, we know that tiny changes can have huge ripples across the Age Lace (Cairhien etc). It seems likely that if the Creator started tweaking things within the Pattern then the ripples and changes could do quite a lot of damage to it a la balefire (what would happen if Rand got mega-balefired? kapow...), hence the use of proxies by both parties (the Dark One is sealed away, the Creator is prevented from acting directly because to act would damage the thing he presumably wants to keep in one piece).

Any thoughts?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Perhaps if things ever grew dire enough the Creator would intervene.  The fact that he doesn't probably means that no matter how bad things look to us, they really aren't that bad.

 

After all, the Creator has people, Ogier, 'Finns, the Wheel, et al to handle his light work.

[blackjon]

Perhaps if things ever grew dire enough the Creator would intervene.  The fact that he doesn't probably means that no matter how bad things look to us, they really aren't that bad.

 

After all, the Creator has people, Ogier, 'Finns, the Wheel, et al to handle his light work.

 

yeah i don't think that it could ever get bad enough for that to happen. the only thing i think RJ dropped the ball on is saying that the Shadow looks like its winning. it isn't, never really has done, and by the mechanics set in place never really can. after all, assuming that Rand was about to turn to the dark one the pattern would just have him die from a sudden heart attack or hell even a freak quantum fluctuation could make him dissolve into his component atoms.

 

If enough balefire was being used to jeapordize it then it cheats. i imagine the pattern gave the Chosen the idea to stop using it in the war of the power, using their own ego's against them, but it made Ishy stop too, and he wants everything busted and had no reason to stop...

 

sadly the light has insta-win on its side

[analyticalkeys]

This makes me think.. how do we know that the Creator ISN'T taking an active role? We just don't know anything about the Creator at all.. for all we know, the Creator might be the one who spins the Pattern, and is causing all the little things that twist fate to allow the DO to lose everytime. I'd be interested in learning more about the Creator, but I think the odds of anything about him being revealed are pretty slim.