Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[Dunderdan]

What would it do to the plotline if a Bloodknife kills Messy's alter ego without ANY character learning who she really was? That seems possible, as Messy wouldn't know they are there, although she might recognize the ter'angreal they use.

 

It would increase plotline funniness index by 100%

 

Haha, I like that idea :)

[Sharaman]

BTW what happened to Talene Minly, the Green-Black sitter?

Egwene and the BA think shes fled the WT

But the BA hunters actually told her to hide somewhere and she's under a personal oath of loyalty to them and would have to do exactly what they told her to.

Did they fish her out and execute her with the others?

Or is TM still around and within easy reach for Egwene?

If so, she may play some sort of role. Perhaps in the hunt for Messi or in filling in details about the BA.

[dholm]

Doesn't Verin say something about the Dark Friend oaths being binding on channelers? She makes it sound like the BA do not use the rod, that is why she was only hoping the binder would remove her oaths not sure of it.

We know the BA do use the Rod. They swear three new Oaths in place of the three of normal AS, so as to maintain the ageless look.

 

Correction: We know they use a binder. They might have a different one than the Oath Rod, which would explain Verin's worry over whether the Rod would work -- she'd have no real proof they work in the same manner. The Aes Sedai don't know that the ageless look is caused by a binder, after all.

[Mr Ares]

Doesn't Verin say something about the Dark Friend oaths being binding on channelers? She makes it sound like the BA do not use the rod, that is why she was only hoping the binder would remove her oaths not sure of it.

We know the BA do use the Rod. They swear three new Oaths in place of the three of normal AS, so as to maintain the ageless look.

Correction: We know they use a binder. They might have a different one than the Oath Rod, which would explain Verin's worry over whether the Rod would work -- she'd have no real proof they work in the same manner. The Aes Sedai don't know that the ageless look is caused by a binder, after all.

Correction: Galina is unsure if Oaths sworn on one OR can be unbound on another, so they certainly use the Tower's OR to unbind themselves, and there's no indication they have another. Them unbinding with one then using another seems a tad overcomplicated.

[dholm]

Good point. I had forgotten that tidbit.

[b9anders]

It just occurred to me that when Mat asks Lanfear is she is a darkfriend in The Dragon Reborn, she denies it on account of not being one of Ishamael's sock puppets lured by his promises of eternal life.  

 

Now I realise Lanfear should have no qualms about lying to anyone. Nonetheless she, like Ishamael, seems to prefer to use the truth to manipulate others with when possible, and seeing as that was a rather Aes Sedaiesque response I am inclined to think that was in fact a truthful response and that the forsaken understand darkfriends to be the shadowsworn that Ishamael has gathered in the past 3000 years.  

 

If so, Mesaana would have no problem swearing on the oath rod that she is not a darkfriend (though she probably would be very keen to rid herself of the three oaths afterwards).

[wingedearth]

I just don't see the Chosen demeaning themselves by playing the role of a servant,

 

You'd be correct of course if the list of Chosen excludes Moghedien from the list...

 

Aran'gar passed as Halima, who was a servant in the rebel camp.

[Koepke12]

Doesn't Verin say something about the Dark Friend oaths being binding on channelers? She makes it sound like the BA do not use the rod, that is why she was only hoping the binder would remove her oaths not sure of it.

We know the BA do use the Rod. They swear three new Oaths in place of the three of normal AS, so as to maintain the ageless look.

Correction: We know they use a binder. They might have a different one than the Oath Rod, which would explain Verin's worry over whether the Rod would work -- she'd have no real proof they work in the same manner. The Aes Sedai don't know that the ageless look is caused by a binder, after all.

Correction: Galina is unsure if Oaths sworn on one OR can be unbound on another, so they certainly use the Tower's OR to unbind themselves, and there's no indication they have another. Them unbinding with one then using another seems a tad overcomplicated.

 

I've always assumed that the oath rod was one of the "Nine Rods of Dominion," which were mentioned in an earlier book.  They were from the AoL so another one being around wouldnt be improbable?

[wumpus]

Doesn't Verin say something about the Dark Friend oaths being binding on channelers? She makes it sound like the BA do not use the rod, that is why she was only hoping the binder would remove her oaths not sure of it.

We know the BA do use the Rod. They swear three new Oaths in place of the three of normal AS, so as to maintain the ageless look.

Correction: We know they use a binder. They might have a different one than the Oath Rod, which would explain Verin's worry over whether the Rod would work -- she'd have no real proof they work in the same manner. The Aes Sedai don't know that the ageless look is caused by a binder, after all.

Correction: Galina is unsure if Oaths sworn on one OR can be unbound on another, so they certainly use the Tower's OR to unbind themselves, and there's no indication they have another. Them unbinding with one then using another seems a tad overcomplicated.

 

I've always assumed that the oath rod was one of the "Nine Rods of Dominion," which were mentioned in an earlier book.  They were from the AoL so another one being around wouldnt be improbable?

 

The Oath rod is a binder, the forsaken have identified it as something used on criminals. Further, there is a second one in the shaido camp which has a large number (>9) further showing it isn't.

[Koepke12]

gotcha

[wumpus]

gotcha

 

found this for you:

 

The Head of the Aes Sedai was usually styled as ‘First Among Servants” and sat on the High Seat. At the end of the Age of Legends, Lews Therin held this position. He wore the Ring of Tamyrlin and summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion (The Eye of the World Prologue). The Nine Rods of Dominion were people:

 

    They were actual people, and they were, but you might call them regional governors of the earth, regional governors of the planet. So if I say, summon them, then we’ve got a guy who has been given in effect ultimate power.

 

    - Robert Jordan, Dragoncon, September 2005

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/age-of-legends.html

[Paerish Swar]

First time poster here.  I went back to the most obvious clue given in the text itself in regards to Mesaana's alter ego, which is the scene in CoT when Shaidar Haran disrupts Mesaana's illusion and Alviarin sees her face.  After reading it I became a little shocked.

 

Alviarin describes Mesaana as "a tantalizingly familiar woman," and when she spoke her voice "tugged the edge of [Alviarin's] recognition..."

 

If Mesaana is disguising herself with Illusion as one of the Tower Aes Sedai, and if the Aes Sedai she is impersonating looks nothing like Mesaana in real life, then she shouldn't look "tantalizingly familiar" to Alviarin at all - Alviarin would have never seen that face before.

 

If the extent of Mesaana's illusion is just to make herself look ageless like an Aes Sedai, I doubt she would be able to just assume the name of any other Sister she happened to capture, question, and kill.  I think someone would notice that some ageless-faced woman was going by the name of a Sister, while obviously looking nothing like that actual Sister.

 

If Mesaana took the place of an Aes Sedai who looked a heck of a lot like her, might there not have been a chance that Alviarin's POV would have been something more like, "My, how Mesaana looks a lot like [ * Aes Sedai's name here * ]!" Although, I must concede that this would not be the case if Mesaana were disguised as a sister who Alviarin is not very well acquainted with.

 

This brings me to the next point.  For Mesaana's voice to tug the edge of Alviarin's recognition, Mesaana's identity must be of an individual who Alviarin could have had some personal contact with, but not someone she had a heck of a lot of contact with.  If so, she might have recognized the voice straight away.  (Related Question: is Mesaana bothering to disguise her voice as well when assuming her alter ego?  Do we know of any sisters who are noted to SOUND a little different?)

 

Anyway . . . for Mesaana to seem familiar, but not in any conclusive manner to Alviarin (especially in the matter of her voice), it seems to me that Mesaana must be posing as someone who Alviarin has had some little amount of contact with, but not any great amount.  To me this rules out anyone who is a Sitter (since Alviarin would have, out of necessity as Elaida's keeper and "handler," had a great deal of contact with them), it rules out anyone who was very involved in the plans to overthrow Siuan (they all must have worked rather closely for a fair amount of time), and it rules out most of the Sisters from her own Ajah (White and Black).

 

I don't know exactly where to start looking for this information, but I think Mesaana would most likely be posing as someone who already looks a good bit like herself and is not a member of any of Alviarin's closer circles.

 

Call me crazy, but I think this rules out Danelle.  I think if it were, Alviarin would have remarked on the resemblance, both of face and of voice; they worked too closely together for too long for her not to.  

 

Maybe I'm wrong. (Also, maybe Mesaana's not posing as a Sister at all.  Verin distinctly does NOT jump to the conclusion that she is!)

 

Comments?

[Mr Ares]

Mesaana would lack the Ageless look. Any sister with more than a few years under her belt wouldn't. So if Mesaana was imitating Danelle, she would be someone who looked similar to Danelle-without-agelessness, who looks similar to the Danelle Alviarin would recognise. The AS who worked with Siuan for years didn't recognise her at first glance.

[Paerish Swar]

I understand your point.  I still wonder if so many similarities (presumably in both face and voice) would not have sparked a little bit more recognition in Alviarin if Mesaana were posing as Danelle.

 

Also, Siuan (as well as Leane) is an extreme example.  She not only lost her ageless look when she was stilled, but she came to resemble a young woman in her early twenties who was a fair bit more beautiful than she had ever been previously.  She also made it a point to speak as little as possible and with a different tone of voice when she first faced Bryne during the trial over the barn burning, understanding that her voice could still give her away.

[lsm]

where does it ever say the BA use a binder?

 

just because they maintain the ageless look doesnt mean they use a binder..when siuan was stilled she lost the oaths and her look, but when the black sitter forswear she howled but didnt lose the look (even though it was a short time)

[Sharaman]

Sammael - Graendal -"Do they use binders like criminals in Shara?" Also Sammael again when he gives the OR to the Shaido and thinks of it as a binder. Semirhage running to GLoD when they threatened to bind her in the AoL.

The Oath Rod is a binder.

Talene was not under oath for about three seconds in-between the removal of the BA oath and the imposition of the new normal oaths plus the extra obedience thing. No time to become non-ageless.

 

 

[lsm]

yeah i get it that binders = oath roads, i was always under the impression that the black ajah was bound by other means, somehow related to how 13 myrdraals can do it. talene would of mentioned it (a binder), or at least we might of read in it in a future pov of the hunters? and i know verin was pressed for time but she could of explained that she was bound via a oath road

 

as for that forsaken chat, I thought they were talking about the aes sedai in general not the blacks

[Sharaman]

Since Talene's oaths could be removed by the OR and Verin hoped hers could, I don't think 13-13 is generally involved. The 13-13 just turns channelers into DFs, it doesn't bind them.

The Chosen were indeed discussing AS in general but Galina also "PoVs" that the BA remove the original three oaths and swear three new ones when she is gently persuaded to swear her oath of obedience to Therava.

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Not trying to be a stickler but doesn't this discussion belong in Verin's thread...no prob tho.  I think the point of the whole thing was that we make the connection that the BA that were discovered by the hunters did remove their DO oaths with the rod and the point of the scene was that of what could have been had Verin known, and it was about the choice Egwene had on whether to tell her where the rod was and that it had been used in that capacity, if inadvertently.  It makes the scene more powerful that that decision not to tell Verin was necessary in case she couldn't be trusted, and by the time Egwene decided she could be it was too late.

[themillwater]

Hey guys, long time lurker

 

 

I'm not sure if you guys have this one i only made it thru about 10 pages of this post,

 

During my last reread of the series i noticed several mentions in the Seain and Pevara chapters of a warder everybody assumes is someone elses, Egwene notices him in TGS on the way out of the basement after talking with them.

 

I know its thin and they are only one sentence mentions,and i have no specific chapters,  (posting in a hurry, on the way to work) so feel free to gut me for posting it, but i think that disguising yourself as a warder would be a good way to walk around the tower unnoticed.

 

 

[Bobbun]

I don't really have any strong feelings about Mesaana's identity.  I do feel it could be Zemaille, however.  We don't really know a whole lot about her, so there's kind of a scarcity of evidence (all of it comes from Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 21, A Mark).  That said:

 

• She's Brown Ajah, which seems to suit what we know of Mesaana's personality.
  
• She's one of the Sea Folk Aes Sedai, and those have a reputation for being aloof from the rest of the Aes Sedai, which would make Zemaille easier than most to replace, I think.  She probably would have enough exposure to the other two Sea Folk Aes Sedai for them to guess that something is wrong, but that's only two that she has to use compulsion on to stay secret.
  
• She has access to the secret records in the White Tower, which would be very helpful both in establishing herself and in knowing what's happening in the tower.
  
• She is conveniently around to observe Alviarin's return to the Tower.  This seems particularly convenient in light of Alviarin's observation that the Sea Folk Aes Sedai usually stay out of sight on the upper floors of the library.
  
• Alviarin notes the following about Zemaille, which seems suspicious:  "The bland expression on the Brown sister’s dark face did not change, but a touch of some unreadable emotion altered the pitch of her voice. Tall and very lean, Zemaille always held that outer mask of reserve and distance, but Alviarin suspected she was less shy than she pretended, and less pleasant."  One of the Chosen would certainly be less shy and less pleasant!
  

 

A couple of less substantial lines of thinking that still lend at least some support:

 

• Our first, and so far only aside from New Spring, encounter with Zemaille is in a chapter where Alviarin constantly thinks about Mesaana.  Possible hint?
  
• When Mesaana's true appearance is revealed to Alviarin, she finds her tantalizingly familiar.  This is usually taken to mean that there's a strong resemblance between Mesaana and an Aes Sedai that Alviarin knows.  This is reasonable given that we know that Illusion (disguise with the Power) works best if one stays close to the original appearance.  The Sea Folk Aes Sedai, of course, would seem to have little resemblance to the blue eyed, light haired woman who is revealed to Alviarin.  That said, though, where do we learn that fact about Illusion?  It's in Chapter 21, Swovan Night of A Crown of Swords.  In that section, Elayne (who has blue eyes and light hair) is trying out a few disguises with the Illusion weave.  What's one of the disguises she tries?  A sea folk woman!  Another possible hint?  Also worth considering is that Alviarin just met with Zemaille shortly before Mesaana was revealed.  Perhaps a recent encounter with the woman is as much why she's tantalizingly familiar as much as actual similarity of appearance.
  

[WolfDragonFox]

I'm still on the Danelle train but you make a nice case for my number 2 suspect if I actually had one except for the fact that you say she is in New Spring, which I don't recall but I haven't read it in awhile.  If she has been around that long without taking oaths on the oath rod she would be suspicious because she doesn't have the ageless face and we know that in the 20 year span between New Spring and EoTW that Moraine and Siuan have agless faces so she would have to have one.  Plus there is the fact that none of the seals were broken so she wouldn't have been out of the Bore yet. The only one we know what free and has been for a long time is Ishamael since he messed with Jain Farstrider and sent him to the Ogier years ago.  So if she is not in New Spring and w/o the ageless face than she is a good number 2 suspect to me, but if not, Danelle is still the one for my money.

[Sharaman]

One of the things about the Chosen's disguises is that they can also conceal voice. Messi uses a bell-like ringtone with Alviarin and Sheriam and Semi (with Suroth) uses another form of voice distortion. This is something Rand, Elayne, Beonin and Co. don't/ can't do. Did Messi cry out in her normal voice when Shaidar Haran read her the Riot Act? The assumption would be, that as Zemaille, Danelle or whoever she is masquerading as, she uses her normal voice. That would add to the sense of tantalising familiarity. Whether Zem/ Dan whoever is in NS doesn't matter - Messi is masquerading as a real sister who she replaced. She's only been loose two years and so, she has to have taken over a real id.

[WolfDragonFox]

I agree that she probably took over a real I.D. but she also could have taken over an Accepted that was close to being raised because she would assumingly not have an ageless face since I cannot recall at all if anyone has or even can use illusion of MoM to recreate an ageless face.  So it does matter that Zemaille is from New Spring (which I quickly looked up and she is) she cannot be her since she doesn't have an ageless face and Zemaille should have it by now.  We know for a fact that Danelle is not ageless yet and relatively new to the shawl, plus all the shady stuff we all have listed her doing. 

[Sharaman]

Where does it say Danelle is not ageless?? I think Danelle and Zemaille are both ageless. Also I don't think Messi would take over a young noice/ initiate's ID - they share rooms with other students and there's too much in the way of physical, social and maybe pillow-contact. Much more sane for her to take over the persona of a loner sister who has been raised to the shawl long enough to acquire agelessness.