Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[algspkr]

Could Mesaana have warded herself against the oath rod before reswearing.  I do not believe that this would work in the AoL but inverted weaves are new to our current crop of AS and it is doubtful that any of them have ever considered doing something similar.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Yes, Pevara is "missing" along with every other AS (Salidar/ WT) who has gone to the Black Tower.

Alviarin thought of kidnapping Doesine and Yukiri who she had seen with Talene.

No mention of Pevara in her PoV.

Still don't get the connection with Saerin.

 

Odd, I thought I'd see reference to Tarna, who was with that group. After checking, that doesn't seem to be the case, and I stand corrected on Alviarin's notice of Pevara as well. Fair enough - I wasn't solid on this Saerin as one of Mesaana's identities anyway, but I do see enough to warrant a second look. That "enough" being specifically the instance of Talene escaping and rise of the Black Ajah Hunters being the major incident of note in the White Tower that could possibly justify Mesaana doing something as abysmally stupid as defying the DO's direct order.

 

As far as those sisters go, that raises a really good question: You're right, none of those sisters is back yet. It's possible they walked right into a trap, arranged by Mesaana and Demandred, who are allied. Which points a finger at yet another sister ... hmmm. Tsutama Rath, a Red, but wears a dress with golden scrollwork, bears a name that carries a sense of irony if one could translate it directly to "Married to those Destined to Rule". Maybe. Or maybe just another darkfriend.

 

Yay for speculation!

[Sharaman]

There's no proof that Talene has escaped from the BA Hunters.

Alviarin thinks Talene has fled the Tower.

Pevara and Co. have told her to hide in the basement.

Given that she's oath-sworn to obey the BA-H, she may be there and Alvi could be wrong.

 

Tsutsama - the best evidence against her is simply that she was in exile till Elaida took power. Yet Verin, who left the Tower months before that to head to the Two Rivers, has met Messi a couple of times.

Sure she could have Travelled into the Tower to meet people but Tsutsama played no apparent role in bringing Elaida to power and that is something Messi is proud of having engineered.

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

There's no proof that Talene has escaped from the BA Hunters.

Alviarin thinks Talene has fled the Tower.

Pevara and Co. have told her to hide in the basement.

Given that she's oath-sworn to obey the BA-H, she may be there and Alvi could be wrong.

 

I'm a bit skeptical that Talene would have willingly pretended to have left the Tower, and suggested being hidden in the basement. It basically turns her into a target the second she leaves that basement... assuming she hasn't escaped. The BA can only assume they've been compromised.

 

Tsutsama - the best evidence against her is simply that she was in exile till Elaida took power. Yet Verin, who left the Tower months before that to head to the Two Rivers, has met Messi a couple of times.

Sure she could have Travelled into the Tower to meet people but Tsutsama played no apparent role in bringing Elaida to power and that is something Messi is proud of having engineered.

 

As for Tsutama, I haven't done enough searching on her yet, but I consider the golden scrollwork and sending Team Pevara into a deathtrap that likely belongs to Mesaana's ally a warning signal that she warrants a closer look.

 

On the subject of her role in bringing Elaida up... of course not. You read what I said about using Aes Sedai identities like cloaks, right? She wouldn't need two identities. She used Danelle (likely) for that role, Nalasia Merhand (maybe) for the interim, and is now using (maybe) Tsutama Rath. It's like Demandred's proxies, except with a more direct hand.

 

I'm not suggesting Tsutama as a replacement candidate, nor was Saerin. They're simply speculation as to who Mesaana's current identity is. And I do think it's likely that she's using more than one, since Danelle hasn't been seen since ACoS.

 

[Sharaman]

Talene didn't have choices. She begged to be allowed to run away or hide and Saerin put her away in the basement. (KoD Prologue)

If you assume that she's escaped, either there's been an offscreen change of plans by the BA-H or Talene can beat the oath of obedience she was forced to take.

You're saying that Messi has serially killed/ compelled various sisters and assumed their ids for brief periods.

Interesting. Actually increases the risk of her being caught exponentially.

Tsutsama could be a DF rather than Mesaana - but I think the whole riff about personality change and potty-mouth too obvious.

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

Talene didn't have choices. She begged to be allowed to run away or hide and Saerin put her away in the basement. (KoD Prologue)

If you assume that she's escaped, either there's been an offscreen change of plans by the BA-H or Talene can beat the oath of obedience she was forced to take.

 

She was confirmed walking out of the Green Quarters with full saddelbags and a chest. That means she intentionally gave the appearance of leaving the Tower. Either she intends to live in the basement forever or... she has a deathwish. Assuming she escaped, someone likely helped her. I've been operating under the assumption that she had a guard, or at least the oaths to force her to stay. Which would suggest a BA-H traitor.  There's other possibilities of course. Like I said, I'm not committed to Saerin as a possibility.

 

You're saying that Messi has serially killed/ compelled various sisters and assumed their ids for brief periods.

 

Killed, likely. Compelled? Too risky in the kind of information she's working with.

 

Interesting. Actually increases the risk of her being caught exponentially. Tsutsama could be a DF rather than Mesaana - but I think the whole riff about personality change and potty-mouth too obvious.

 

I think there's a certain kind of Sedai that is absolutely perfect for replacement by an intrepid Forsaken. Women out of the Tower for extended periods, those with few friends, or who generally hold themselves apart from the workings of the Tower, observing but not taking as much part. There are a lot of sisters like this, indicated in the books. People who can be easily replaced, and given the deep politics of the Tower, whose to say they didn't get dragged in and change the way they behave?

 

Let's take Danelle for example. Friendless, discounted as a dreamy Brown, without a lot of influence. Someone like that is easy to impersonate, and the chance of discovery is nil, because the people that might expose her... aren't available.

 

The only real points for Nalasia Merhan is that she's an unknown, weak in the power (which means ignored), and in a good position to find things out as a Brown.

 

Then there's Tsutama. I consider the foul-mouth a point -against- her being Mesaana, but the personality change makes sense. Not to mention that she's abrasive enough to make you wonder if the only reason she's in authority is because of the well-placed Red BAs.

 

All three are on my cipher list, but I haven't gotten around to testing cipher theory against non-candidates, so that could just be the luck of the draw.

[Sharaman]

Talene didn't have choices. She begged to be allowed to run away or hide and Saerin put her away in the basement. (KoD Prologue)

If you assume that she's escaped, either there's been an offscreen change of plans by the BA-H or Talene can beat the oath of obedience she was forced to take.

 

She was confirmed walking out of the Green Quarters with full saddelbags and a chest. That means she intentionally gave the appearance of leaving the Tower. Either she intends to live in the basement forever or... she has a deathwish. Assuming she escaped, someone likely helped her. I've been operating under the assumption that she had a guard, or at least the oaths to force her to stay. Which would suggest a BA-H traitor.  There's other possibilities of course. Like I said, I'm not committed to Saerin as a possibility.

 

Misdirection. Talene wants the BA to think she's run away while she hides. She really has no choices, given what Yukiri said to Pevara. She could only leave the Tower if the BAH gave her permission, which according to Yukiri, they didn't.

 

 

You're saying that Messi has serially killed/ compelled various sisters and assumed their ids for brief periods.

Killed, likely. Compelled? Too risky in the kind of information she's working with.

 

Ok so every time she needs to, she finds another lonely AS and changes ID.

 

Interesting. Actually increases the risk of her being caught exponentially. Tsutsama could be a DF rather than Mesaana - but I think the whole riff about personality change and potty-mouth too obvious.

I think there's a certain kind of Sedai that is absolutely perfect for replacement by an intrepid Forsaken. Women out of the Tower for extended periods, those with few friends, or who generally hold themselves apart from the workings of the Tower, observing but not taking as much part. There are a lot of sisters like this, indicated in the books. People who can be easily replaced, and given the deep politics of the Tower, whose to say they didn't get dragged in and change the way they behave?

 

Let's take Danelle for example. Friendless, discounted as a dreamy Brown, without a lot of influence. Someone like that is easy to impersonate, and the chance of discovery is nil, because the people that might expose her... aren't available.

 

The only real points for Nalasia Merhan is that she's an unknown, weak in the power (which means ignored), and in a good position to find things out as a Brown.

 

Then there's Tsutama. I consider the foul-mouth a point -against- her being Mesaana, but the personality change makes sense. Not to mention that she's abrasive enough to make you wonder if the only reason she's in authority is because of the well-placed Red BAs.

 

All three are on my cipher list, but I haven't gotten around to testing cipher theory against non-candidates, so that could just be the luck of the draw.

 

Fair enough - it's a theory. I don't think RJ liked acronyms that much but the serial thing could be valid.

If she's doing that, she's also slowly whittling away channelers, as she works her way through the list.

 

 

 

[Calderis]

 

If she's doing that, she's also slowly whittling away channelers, as she works her way through the list.

 

 

Which I personally think is a strike against. Why haven't we heard of these sisters disappearing after Messy is done using them?

[Eht Slat Meit]

Which I personally think is a strike against. Why haven't we heard of these sisters disappearing after Messy is done using them?

 

Theorywise, for the same reason she chose them in the first place. Danelle and Nalasia are nobodies, and while Tsutama slightly bucks that trend, she may reflect the final choice before the Last Battle. If Mesaana were to suddenly reveal herself to the BA for the Last Battle, she'd want a persona that they'd follow, not an infiltrator persona.

[Calderis]

But any sister leaving the tower is a noteworthy happening. maybe not bookwise, but in the tower. The game of houses started because of dealings with the tower. Do you really think, with the manipulative mindsets that Aes Sedai constantly live in, that these women who are friendless nobodies could step in pull a couple of strings and just disappear, and no one comments whatsoever?

 

Either there's a Fake leaving scenario, like the idea with Talene hiding in the basement, for every one of the women in question, or there would be comment on sisters in the tower disappearing.

[Eht Slat Meit]

But any sister leaving the tower is a noteworthy happening. maybe not bookwise, but in the tower. The game of houses started because of dealings with the tower. Do you really think, with the manipulative mindsets that Aes Sedai constantly live in, that these women who are friendless nobodies could step in pull a couple of strings and just disappear, and no one comments whatsoever?

 

Either there's a Fake leaving scenario, like the idea with Talene hiding in the basement, for every one of the women in question, or there would be comment on sisters in the tower disappearing.

 

Who says they necessarily "just disappear"? If Mesaana can impersonate the woman, she certainly can fake her leaving the Tower and never have anyone the wiser, what with the inverted weaves and other related goodies.

[Sharaman]

Ok, just summing up

1) There's strong evidence that Messi is impersonating a sister (or several sisters if you accept Eht Slat Meit's hypothesis).

2) She's been doing this since before Verin went to the Two Rivers since Verin met her twice.

3) Some evidence that the sister in question may be Danelle, Otherwise somebody who has no warder and few friends.

4) Graendal apparently knew who she was pretending to be.

5) For some reason, she couldn't join the party at Shadar Logoth

6) Apparently the sister in question (the original) wasn't Black Ajah herself

7) Messi's still in the Tower and she's found/knows some way to beat the oath rod, since she's passed that test.

Eight) TAR or the use of dream ter'angreal may have had something to do with the method of beating the rod since she took the lot (except for the one Sheriam couldn't get)

We still don't know enough to definitively say who she is. Nor does Egwene know enough (the info with readers is more than the info with Egwene since we know what Messi looks like, how long she's been in the Tower, etc).

Ways she may be caught/ found out.

 

1) Dumb luck - Nynaeve or Cadsuane walks in with their weave disruption ter'angreal and breaks her Mask

2) Egwene works it out by pure logic - there's links missing in that chain as written by Brandon. She finds the links -realises how the rod can be beaten, etc.

3) The Bloodknives attack Messi and she's incapacitated and her weaves break, revealing her ID.

4) Messi's ordered to kill/ kidnap Egwene and Egwene beats her in a channeling/dreaming duel.

 

 

[JakeBarnes]

I wanted for a long time to connect Saerin to Messy, but I just can't make myself sure of it. 

A lot of me leans toward Danelle, but I haven't ruled out the possibility of Shevan.

 

The interesting point about Saerin that pops up is that she would have already beaten the oath rod back in POD if she were really Messy.  This could be a huge hint, given the fact that Brandon is hinting that Messy can beat the oath rod.  And if that is the key item that Egwene needs to figure out, maybe this will be the scent under her nose leading her to Messy. It could be that the whereabouts of Talene will have some role in the unmasking.

 

But as I said before, I'm on the fence.  I just want the new book to solve this riddle.

[Sharaman]

@Jake - you and Eht Slat both. Why this fascination with Saerin?

She looks totally different from Messi (and Alvi's PoV suggests Messi is impersonating somebody who looks similar),

Saerin's also got a lot of Tower history, everyone remembers her as Wilder who was trained by the Daughters of Silence,

She's done the BA a bit of damage in her own right as BA Hunter,

She is well known and respected in the Tower by a lot of people, if not close friends with them.

 

 

[Bobbun]

Ways she may be caught/ found out.

 

1) Dumb luck - Nynaeve or Cadsuane walks in with their weave disruption ter'angreal and breaks her Mask

2) Egwene works it out by pure logic - there's links missing in that chain as written by Brandon. She finds the links -realises how the rod can be beaten, etc.

3) The Bloodknives attack Messi and she's incapacitated and her weaves break, revealing her ID.

4) Messi's ordered to kill/ kidnap Egwene and Egwene beats her in a channeling/dreaming duel.

 

Lots more than just four ways, but here's a thought...  If she's Danelle, then

 

5.  Siuan catches her while digging for dirt to get revenge on those who deposed her.

 

[Sharaman]

Ways she may be caught/ found out.

 

1) Dumb luck - Nynaeve or Cadsuane walks in with their weave disruption ter'angreal and breaks her Mask

2) Egwene works it out by pure logic - there's links missing in that chain as written by Brandon. She finds the links -realises how the rod can be beaten, etc.

3) The Bloodknives attack Messi and she's incapacitated and her weaves break, revealing her ID.

4) Messi's ordered to kill/ kidnap Egwene and Egwene beats her in a channeling/dreaming duel.

 

Lots more than just four ways, but here's a thought...  If she's Danelle, then

 

5.  Siuan catches her while digging for dirt to get revenge on those who deposed her.

 

Of course, there must be more ways.

That was just a list of basic stuff. Add any details or ideas that pop up.

 

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

@Jake - you and Eht Slat both. Why this fascination with Saerin?

She looks totally different from Messi (and Alvi's PoV suggests Messi is impersonating somebody who looks similar),

Saerin's also got a lot of Tower history, everyone remembers her as Wilder who was trained by the Daughters of Silence,

She's done the BA a bit of damage in her own right as BA Hunter,

She is well known and respected in the Tower by a lot of people, if not close friends with them.  

 

Actually, at this point, I'm more inclined to thinking Tsutama than Saerin, IF (and this is a big if) Jordan didn't simply drop her Mesaana's alter-ego off-screen between CoS and TGS. I'm almost completely certain she -was- Danelle at one point, and the other possibility is that she made the mistake of disposing of that identity or did something that would have outed herself (such as that so-very-keen insight into Pedron Niall's secret activities) and had to lie low. All it would have taken is one astute observation by someone present that this "friendless" Brown seems to have a lot of highly secret knowledge. Maybe that mistake meant she had to kill the identity.

 

Given her extended knowledge of old espionage-related weaves, though, that seems unlikely that she wouldn't have simply come back with another. I mean, she's not a weak channeler, is she? As much intrigue as her place requires, she should have the ability to maintain a more difficult disguise shouldn't she?

[Sharaman]

@Jake - you and Eht Slat both. Why this fascination with Saerin?

She looks totally different from Messi (and Alvi's PoV suggests Messi is impersonating somebody who looks similar),

Saerin's also got a lot of Tower history, everyone remembers her as Wilder who was trained by the Daughters of Silence,

She's done the BA a bit of damage in her own right as BA Hunter,

She is well known and respected in the Tower by a lot of people, if not close friends with them.  

 

Actually, at this point, I'm more inclined to thinking Tsutama than Saerin, IF (and this is a big if) Jordan didn't simply drop her Mesaana's alter-ego off-screen between CoS and TGS. I'm almost completely certain she -was- Danelle at one point, and the other possibility is that she made the mistake of disposing of that identity or did something that would have outed herself (such as that so-very-keen insight into Pedron Niall's secret activities) and had to lie low. All it would have taken is one astute observation by someone present that this "friendless" Brown seems to have a lot of highly secret knowledge. Maybe that mistake meant she had to kill the identity.

 

Given her extended knowledge of old espionage-related weaves, though, that seems unlikely that she wouldn't have simply come back with another. I mean, she's not a weak channeler, is she? As much intrigue as her place requires, she should have the ability to maintain a more difficult disguise shouldn't she?

 

I get the broad concept of moving her ID.

But why Saerin specifically instead of any other AS? 

Is it because you liked the acronym being close to Messi's original name?

 

[JakeBarnes]

 

I get the broad concept of moving her ID.

But why Saerin specifically instead of any other AS? 

Is it because you liked the acronym being close to Messi's original name?

 

 

It's nothing as goofy as that for me.  I just see some strange behavior from her.  We need a legitimate reason for Messy missing the cleansing, and I haven't seen one yet unless she was involved with the BA-H in some way. 

 

Also, I feel it is a fair assumption that one of the Salidar sitters also knows how to beat the Oath Rod, or possibly is Mesaana.  Someone in this group warned the rest of the Salidar BA about the purge, and my suspicion is Takima.  Do we have hard evidence that Messy is in THE White Tower, and not with the rebels?  And I don't mean Graendal's pov, because that could have been wordplay.

[redarm]

Sheriam admitted in the end that there was a forsaken in the tower, didn't she?  Am I remembering something that didn't happen?  I don't have my book in front of me to check.  If so I would say that that is proof enough that Messi is in the actual tower.  Add to that the fact that she knew nothing of the dream ter'angreal and had to have Sheriam track them down for her and you get more support for the idea. 

[Sharaman]

The chats among the Chosen

Graendal deduces Messi is in the WT when they're chatting to Demandred.

After that, Messi's conversation with Halima Aran'gar makes it clear that Messi was in the Tower and expected Halima to take care of the Salidar faction.

That's proof enough that Messi isn't impersonating a Salidar sister.

 

[JakeBarnes]

Okay.

 

That still leaves two very big questions:

Who spilled the beans about the BA purge in the Salidar camp?  It had to have been a sitter.

If Messy is Danelle, why was she unable to attend the Cleansing?

[Sharaman]

Okay.

 

That still leaves two very big questions:

Who spilled the beans about the BA purge in the Salidar camp?  It had to have been a sitter.

If Messy is Danelle, why was she unable to attend the Cleansing?

 

The second question, whoever she is, is obviously crucial. We don't have a clue.

 

The first question, many women were publicly executed by beheading.

Rounding them up would also have taken hours.

The list of people "in the know" is too large to definitively say who warned the WT BA. 

 

[Casabamelon]

The first question, many women were publicly executed by beheading.

Rounding them up would also have taken hours.

The list of people "in the know" is too large to definitively say who warned the WT BA. 

 

And with people being able to travel again, it doesn't take long for information to get around. Off the top of my head, I could come up with a dozen very reasonable possibilities for why someone in the tower would know or strongly suspect "the jig was up".

[NARISMA]

Brandon said that we have seen Messy's alter ego as of KoD,so it's not Danelle,I tought that she is Danelle 'till I read that