The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Terez]

Who the heck is Carlinya?

The White Ajah representative of Sheriam's circle and one of those who swore fealty to Egwene.

[WolfDragonFox]

3000+

+

9000+

x

Bela lover

x

Respected Moderator = Terez overuled and no longer allowed to dismiss people's theories on any subject especially this one.  Post count, plus manners and some real funny sigs and even subtract my count if you want and the pendulum still swings to Luckers and Ed on this one. 

 

Everyone is entitled and to be honest I just finished book 1 & 2 going to 3 and can't wait to get to 4-6 in my reread to see if I can catch this little nugget.  Good luck to all and look forward to continue reading what you all have to say on the matter.  I'll only contribute when I get there in the read and think I've gotten something. 

(BTW Terez, j/k so don't get out of wack on this lol. 

 

Goin Golfing with the Director and the Production manager tomorrow and getting paid for it.  Filmmaking really is the dream job.

 

  Hope we figure this thing out before we are told it.

[Terez]

Respected Moderator = Terez overuled and no longer allowed to dismiss people's theories on any subject especially this one.  Post count, plus manners and some real funny sigs and even subtract my count if you want and the pendulum still swings to Luckers and Ed on this one. 

If you want post count, then go to Theoryland.

 

Theoryland incarnation 1

Theoryland incarnation 2

 

I win.  ;)

[Auld Manriva]

Why would a Forsaken send the gholam to slaughter Herid Fel? He was a nobody for all intents and purposes. Why would he appear on their radar even?

 

[Terez]

Just realized I missed this post:

 

I just gotta comment on how impressed I am with some of you folks.

Especially Terez.

Thank you.

 

Do you have a list of all the prophecies' date=' Egwene's dreams, Perrin's dreams and Min's visions? Or do you have all this in your head?[/quote']

Both.  I remember all of the important dreams and prophecies, so that if a subject comes up where they are relevant, I usually don't miss the opportunity to take them into account.  But I do sometimes use a list on the Encyclopaedia WoT to jog my memory.  There is a link to that and several other important resources in my sig.

 

Terez is amazing

Thanks.   ;)

 

Why would a Forsaken send the gholam to slaughter Herid Fel? He was a nobody for all intents and purposes. Why would he appear on their radar even?

He showed up on the radar because Rand was visiting him often, and as to why he was killed:

 

13th Depository Quote Collection

 

RJ:  Fel was killed because somebody thought he might reveal too much.

[Auld Manriva]

and no one's wondered WHO or What?

[Terez]

Well, the gholam is everyone's favorite for what, even though we don't know of any of them being around at that time, and the only one we know of was commanded by Sammael (he apparently found it in a stasis box).  A gholam has also been suggested for Barthanes, who was killed in a similar way.  Ishamael is the favorite for WHO, though, because he's the philosopher, and Fel's death coincides with Moridin's appearance.

[WolfDragonFox]

Yeah I re calculated the numbers with TL added in and Terez is the almighty postmaster.  Sponsored by the post office, UPS, and FedEx.  She is like the post Tiger Woods except a lady, and as far as we know doesn't have a penchant for cheating....with white women.... lol like I said it was a joke....I pretty much always like your posts.

[Terez]

No prob.  I have a new sig now.  :)

[inkL0sed]

My brainstorm on the matter:

 

Maybe it has something to do with Herid Fel and the fact that he clearly figured out how to seal the prison again. Maybe it's something in his note to Min. Maybe there's something deeper going on in the comment about how pretty she is. I admit, though, that this isn't quite the right timeline, as it's more of a 6-8 storyline.

The problem with that is that Fel's note has been discussed A LOT.  We figured out forever ago that he was referring to the seals on the Dark One's prison - the meaning of the rest is pretty obvious to - belief and order give strength.  Belief in the Dragon Reborn, and order like the Seanchan bring.

My only point is that maybe we've missed something else about the note, like the part where he says Min is too pretty. That's just an example. But just because the note has been discussed a lot doesn't mean we haven't missed a detail in it.

 

 

It just occurred to me that the Aes Sedai swear to "speak no word that is not true". Well' date=' does that mean that they can lie in writing? Maybe there's something important that we've seen in writing in one or all of those books from an non-Darkfriend Aes Sedai that contains a lie.[/quote']

The only letters I can think of are Moiraine's letters, Elaida's letter, Sashalle's letter to Toveine, and Teslyn's note to Mat.  I don't think there is much to pick apart in those that we haven't picked apart already, but let us know if you find something interesting.

 

Will do, sir.

 

I'm thinking of doing an extremely close read of the series (like, noting down almost every detail), starting with book 4. So I'm actually being serious in saying that I will get back to you if I have more to say on the matter.

 

But I have to reread the Gathering Storm and then the Sound and the Fury first, so that may be a while.

[cleantoe]

I'm thinking of doing an extremely close read of the series (like, noting down almost every detail), starting with book 4. So I'm actually being serious in saying that I will get back to you if I have more to say on the matter.

 

You know...you could just wait till the next book gets published next year. :P

[WolfDragonFox]

Wow...Terez, that means so much to me hahaha to think I would inspire something so fantastically efficient in terms of knowledge gathering and linkage...lol

[Calderis]

People actually judge validity of theories by the posters post count?

 

Comprehension and intellect measured by how often you post to the internet.

 

What an accurate system.

[Terez]

People actually judge validity of theories by the posters post count?

 

Comprehension and intellect measured by how often you post to the internet.

 

What an accurate system.

I know, right?  It is true that it's a general rule that posters who have been around for a while are more knowledgeable than noobs.  But it doesn't mean that noobs don't have anything to offer, and sometimes there are some serious exceptions to the rule.  I do often find myself looking at postcount (especially here, where I don't know many people), but it's usually to the purpose of asking myself, "Does this person have an excuse for making such an ill-informed argument?" or some such.  If the post count is low (which it often is on this board - the noobs seem to outnumber the old hats by far), then my opinion of the poster is not diminished all that much by a horrible post.  There's not a single person who ever showed up on a WoT fan site knowing anywhere close to everything, and those of us who are well-informed don't know everything either.  We all slip up and forget small details about the series from time to time (for instance, I just noticed I wrote 'Sashalle's letter to Toveine' above.  I meant her letter to Galina, which ended up in Tsutama's hands - I didn't actually forget that but I didn't really think about it as I was writing it...was thinking about Toveine's letter which we didn't get to see).  But the experts can generally recognize each other.  

 

For example...when I first got internet, I went straight for WoT and was overjoyed at finding an internet fandom.  I registered here, and at Wotmania, and at Theoryland, and to make a long story short I got sucked into Theoryland.  I remember hating Wotmania's interface, and I don't think I even made it to Dragonmount's forums because Theoryland sucked me in.  Then, after a couple of years, I was one of the well-informed posters at Theoryland.  We got a noob named Dom, who was extraordinarily well-informed, to the point that I contacted him by PM, letting him know how exciting it was to have such a well-informed new member.  Turns out he was DomA from Wotmania, one of their experts (Dominic from 13th Depository).  He didn't announce the fact until I asked.  I also got into a row with another 'noob' at Theoryland, and I never believed that he was a noob to the fandom.  We fought over Lews Therin, tooth and nail, and I finally figured out who he was because he suggested that Beslan was Berelain's man in white.  And I asked myself, now how many people on the internet can believe that?  It was Etzel from Wotmania, also one of their experts (he's at readandfindout.com now).  He registered at Theoryland under a different name because he wanted to see what it was like to be treated as a noob.  :D

 

Luckers has an account at both incarnations of Theoryland, but he's never posted that I can see.  :(  I like him but I don't know if he has figured that out yet.  It took me a little while to figure it out myself.   ;D

[Sharaman]

The only letters I can think of are Moiraine's letters, Elaida's letter, Sashalle's letter to Toveine, and Teslyn's note to Mat.  I don't think there is much to pick apart in those that we haven't picked apart already, but let us know if you find something interesting.

 

Moiraine says that AS cannot write "any word that is not true" when Rand receives Alviarin's letter. Or rather, Moiraine nods in affirmation when Rand asks her about this.

[Terez]

The only letters I can think of are Moiraine's letters, Elaida's letter, Sashalle's letter to Toveine, and Teslyn's note to Mat.  I don't think there is much to pick apart in those that we haven't picked apart already, but let us know if you find something interesting.

Moiraine says that AS cannot write "any word that is not true" when Rand receives Alviarin's letter. Or rather, Moiraine nods in affirmation when Rand asks her about this.

Yes, I know, but a lot of people think there is a loophole here, if not for Moiraine, then for Aes Sedai who believe that it does not apply to writing.

[ed2funy]

This would be conditional for each sister though.

 

It has been stated over and over again, if a sister believes it to be so, then it is.

 

If she believes that to say no word untrue means they can write it, then she will be able to.

 

EDIT: Took my words.:P

[Sharaman]

Well, the gholam is everyone's favorite for what, even though we don't know of any of them being around at that time, and the only one we know of was commanded by Sammael (he apparently found it in a stasis box).  A gholam has also been suggested for Barthanes, who was killed in a similar way.  Ishamael is the favorite for WHO, though, because he's the philosopher, and Fel's death coincides with Moridin's appearance.

 

I don't have the books but doesn't Fel's death scene specifically mention the gholam? Something like "he was looking at his pipe and wondering whether to light it when the G slipped under the door so he didn't notice. And once it started on him, it would have made no difference if he had noticed". Paraphrasing the bits in quotes of course.

[ed2funy]

Paraphrasing the bits in quotes of course.

Hadn't noticed...:P

 

I think it did mention that he didn't see the Gholam slipping under his door or something.

[WolfDragonFox]

Wow glad I could strike up such a topic but it really all was just a joke...I don't really judge validity on post count, here is my rating system in order of importance to judge a posted theory or response to a theory.

 

1. Imaginatively Informed - A posting that is first and foremost detailed and imaginative but also based within the realities of the books which takes being well informed of the subject matter. I.E.- Taim is Demandred theories still coming from high count posters is just sad and lame (this is not a call out on anyone as usually it comes from noobs that don't follow the Q&A's throughout the years.)  and I.E. Bela is the creator theories that bring up how she is the horse that seems to be most reliable when sticky situations arise are most likely wrong but still worth a good read since a case can be made that the creator  is "God" in WoT just like God is God to us and we believe God is in and of all things so maybe the Creator has chosen Bela as his inadvertent interference vessel. )

 

2. History Buff - gotta know what is already out there, who said it, how much validity it has and also this includes being a magnet to the Q&A's

 

3. Quote Masters and Mistresses (like Terez) - people who quote accurately and in correct and fitting situations for making a point, backing a point arguing a point or correcting a mistake.

 

4. Nice online personality...not really a requirement being that some of the really knowledgeable people can be real uncle Alans....it helps people get your point if you don't force it on them or berate them about what they have to say.

 

Hope everything's all clear and that my personal criteria agrees with your own at least a little.  Later guys gotta shoot under par tomorrow.

[Terez]

Well, the gholam is everyone's favorite for what, even though we don't know of any of them being around at that time, and the only one we know of was commanded by Sammael (he apparently found it in a stasis box).  A gholam has also been suggested for Barthanes, who was killed in a similar way.  Ishamael is the favorite for WHO, though, because he's the philosopher, and Fel's death coincides with Moridin's appearance.

 

I don't have the books but doesn't Fel's death scene specifically mention the gholam? Something like "he was looking at his pipe and wondering whether to light it when the G slipped under the door so he didn't notice. And once it started on him, it would have made no difference if he had noticed". Paraphrasing the bits in quotes of course.

Indeed, you are correct.  Shows how rusty I am (I'm doing a re-read now for the first time in two years, and I haven't gotten to Lord of Chaos yet).  I think I got him mixed up with Barthanes - the description of his death lends to the belief that it was a gholam, but there's no evidence other than that.

 

Anyway, I had forgotten about that scene in the epilogue of Lord of Chaos completely - just remembered Rand getting the news in A Crown of Swords - but I checked the Chronology to be sure on the concidence, and he places Fel's death the day before Moridin is first seen, and also the day before Sammael indicates to Carridin that he has access to a gholam, and there's no question mark by any of it.  So if you assume that Moridin controlled the gholam when it killed Fel, then either there are two of them, or Sammael had access to Moridin's gholam, and it would have had to travel from Cairhien to Ebou Dar in six days.  It can move fast, though, and it might also have used the Ways.

[Luckers]

NOTE: SPOILERS FOR THE MISTBORN IN THIS POST.

 

 

 

Also, your assertion that slavery is necessary to maintain the power of the Empire is flawed.  The Da'shain Aiel weren't the property of the Aes Sedai, but they were honored servants; honored servants can maintain their place in the Seanchan culture without being considered property.  It's not the sort of change that is likely to happen overnight, but it will happen

 

My point was that slavery was necessary to maintain the balance of power in the Empire, not to maintain the power of the Empire. The Seanchan have an insanely stratified class view--the only thing maintaining any sense of equality within the Empire is the fact that within it slaves can have power. Greater power in some cases than the highest of lords.

 

For the slavery to be completely abolished one must first get rid of the aristocracy. If that does not occur beforehand then Seanchan will get worse. Abuses of power will increase, and the differences between the classes will result in a collapse of the infrastructure that holds such a vast empire together.

 

The only other option is to completely--and I mean completely--remake Seanchan culture.

 

As for the detail being head-slappingly obvious, I was confused because it was indeed not in my interview database, but I found the quote in Tam's original post on the subject on Theoryland.

 

 

Quote from: Tamyrlin

And here is what he said in Vegas when talking about Towers of Midnight:

 

"...including one thing is secretly hidden in the books for books and books and books, and I haven't been able to find a hint that any of the fan communities have even gotten a whiff it, which is awesome, because they get a whiff of almost everything. And it is really going to be a shocker when it happens, but it is going to be one of those shockers that people are going to slap their foreheads, why haven't we been talking about this for twelve years..."

 

That's not saying its obvious, its saying we'll slap ourselves for having not realised.

 

Quote from: ed

By you reasoning, that means the other theories aren't good enough to be valid.

If they do not fit the criteria, then they are not valid.  Obviously, there will be some argument over whether or not things fit the criteria.  But it must fit these:

 

1.  Was first introduced somewhere in 4-6.

2.  Has been mentioned in 'books and books' since.

3.  Is comparable to Vin's earring.

4.  Is head-slappingly obvious, and that we should have been discussing it for years.

5.  Can come into play in Towers of Midnight.

6.  Is bigger than 'Who killed Asmodean?'

7.  Hasn't been discussed much on the fan sites.

8.  Is a small thing that means something large.

 

IMHO, Mat's ravens fits all of those criteria.    As for Carlinya....

 

1.  Yes.

2.  Not really.

3.  IMO, not at all.

4.  Don't think so.

5.  Hard to see how.  Luckers' idea seems more like a post-Last Battle thing.

6.  Since I don't care about Asmodean, I think nearly everything is more important.

7.  I did a search on Theoryland, and Carlinya's raven has been discussed far more than Mat's ravens there.

8.  The ravens are a small thing that means something large, but what they mean is that the person is property of the Empress.  Not a big deal with Carlinya; kind of a shocker for Mat.

 

Carlinya.

 

1. Yes.

2. Yes. As I stated above the issues of Seanchan policies towards channelers and the resulting shitstorm that will come from it have been mentioned frequently. All of which is inherent to the implications of Carlinya--an Aes Sedai--wearing the Ravens.

3. IMO absolutely. Vin's earing--metal piercing a body--should have raised alarms immediately when the questions of how the Steel Inquisitors survived was raised. More so as time progressed. An Aes Sedai with the ravens should also have immediately raised eyebrows. Especially with (and in terms of comprability to Vin i.e. the Steel Inquisitor point) the scene with the Seeker in book 4.

4. I've addressed the point of obviousity, and would further point out that even had Brandon said that he would have clearly been wrong. And finally, what you think to be obvious is quite obviously different from what I do--because I do think that should have been obvious as I stated in detail above. So which of our opinions are more valid? We've established we arn't using post counts, so what should draw the line?

5. Certainly it can. The Tower will be reacting to the Seanchan attack, and at the same time Elayne's little ferrets will be spreading the secret of the sul'dam--it is precisely now when this issue will rear is head.

6. I agree with you here. Asmo is boring.

7. If you--you--had to run a search than its a moot point. If you didn't know of it then its more than probable Brandon didn't.

8. Yes it's a big deal. Which I went into detail about above--and you've to date ignored.

 

But this specifically brings me to the point I made at the end of my last post--I asked that we not go down this path, because it's unpleasent and pointless. Here is why. Your judgements on this are just that--your judgements. I can argue semantics as well as the next person. Probably better than most--which is not a thing to be proud of. But it all comes down to this: shades of weight applied on the applications of what we presume to be Brandon's judgement on this are pointless--and ultimately contentious.

 

Essentially what I am saying to you is that if you don't agree, fine. But don't dismiss peoples comments simply because you don't agree--and gradations that you think stand against it is not enough to step beyond you simply not agreeing. The only time it is ok to dismiss something is if you have a solid quote directly dismissing it. Short of that, simply say 'I don't agree' and state why.

 

Anything else is counter-productive

 

Quote from: WolfDragonFox on December 27, 2009, 06:58:20 PM

Respected Moderator = Terez overuled and no longer allowed to dismiss people's theories on any subject especially this one.  Post count, plus manners and some real funny sigs and even subtract my count if you want and the pendulum still swings to Luckers and Ed on this one.

 

 

If you want post count, then go to Theoryland.

 

Theoryland incarnation 1

Theoryland incarnation 2

 

I win.    

 

Not that I agree even slightly with the point WDF was making--but I have over 40k of posts at the old Shadar Logoth board.

 

Just saying.  ;D

 

Luckers has an account at both incarnations of Theoryland, but he's never posted that I can see.    I like him but I don't know if he has figured that out yet.  It took me a little while to figure it out myself.

 

It's ok, I took a while to figure out I like myself too, but now we're the best of friends.

 

To be clear I like Terez too--we're just a little too similar, and each know a little too much about the series. A bad combination if ever there was one.  ;D

 

Oh and Terez the reason I didn't post was the old incarnation was hell to navigate (which I realise now was adjustable). For the new one, its because most of my WoT time is taken up between modding here and work for the FAQ update. I plan to fix that after the board gets unlocked. But I have been lurking. You have some interesting conversations over there.

 

 

[cleantoe]

Who the f*** is Carlinya? You're just grasping at straws here.

 

She doesn't come up in every book and she's not head-slapping obvious. You wanna know why? Cause I've read all the books twice and don't have any f'ing clue who you're even referring to!

 

Seriously guys. Stop talking WoT. Stop posting about it. Do this for an entire month. Then start reading at book 4 and read up until book 9 and see if there is something small and reoccuring that you didn't notice before.

 

This Carlinya thing is ridiculous...I mean only the die hard people know what you're talkin bout here...If you look hard enough for something, your mind will invent a solution. Stop looking for it so hard, guys.

[ed2funy]

I don't think that was my quote...

It started out like it, but I think you took two and put em together, unless someone else repeated my part...

 

I see, terez quoted me, then responded..didn't even see that earlier...

Anyways....the big long part is his.

 

 

I will go reread...

 

EDIT NEW:  Carlinya is an AS

[Luckers]

Who the f*** is Carlinya? You're just grasping at straws here.

 

She doesn't come up in every book and she's not head-slapping obvious. You wanna know why? Cause I've read all the books twice and don't have any f'ing clue who you're even referring to!

 

Seriously guys. Stop talking WoT. Stop posting about it. Do this for an entire month. Then start reading at book 4 and read up until book 9 and see if there is something small and reoccuring that you didn't notice before.

 

This Carlinya thing is ridiculous...I mean only the die hard people know what you're talkin bout here...If you look hard enough for something, your mind will invent a solution. Stop looking for it so hard, guys.

 

Carlinya is a Rebel Aes Sedai. A White. She is one of the first Aes Sedai we're introduced to, in Fal Dara, in the Great Hunt. She was one of the council that ran Salidar, one of the women Nynaeve and Elayne trains in TAR, one of the ones responsible for Egwene being Amyrlin, one of the ones who sent the ferrets, and thus one of the women who ends up as Egwene's advisors (and bondswomen).

 

Min also saw a raven tattoo around her.

 

Also drop the aggression and the directives. That you failed to notice Carlinya's existance means little. I failed to notice that the Gill with Morgase was the Innkeeper until my seventh re-read, and thats with it being directly stated. We all miss things.