The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

Language is one those things we just have to take on trust in WoTVerse.

Imagine for instance, that the vision of the DR that chatted to Masema spoke in a Taraboner or Seanchan accent. Would the Prophet have noticed, given that he had plenty of contact with Rand & co. and knew their West Andorman/ Two Rivers accent?

So do we choose to deduce that the Chosen, or whoever it was, that chatted to Masema, could also do a flawless TR accent because that gets interesting :)

Pity Rand's visit was pre-LTT days because LTT would have understood what was said without translation. Maybe we can assume that LTT would have played back the conversation in their shared head once he became active and thus, vetted the translation.

 

[FarShainMael]

Leaving the whole 'LTT, real or construct?' thing to the other threads and just talking in terms of the LTT-memories, which certainly are real: Rand now, it seems, has full access to those memories. Perhaps at some point in the next two books he's going to have a serious face-slapping 'D'Oh!' moment, and work out what the Aelfinn really meant!

 

 

BTW: A Chosen from the TR. Hmmmmmmmmmmm......

 

[StefanR]

I'm re-reading TSR ATM, and I'm noticing a few things.. (such as, why was Thom known as the 'Grey Fox'..) One of these items is what happens after Rand, Mat, and Moiraine have been through the Aelfinn gateway. It turns out that the Aelfinn speak what M describes as a 'rather harsh dialect' of the Old Tongue. She and Mat understood it - Mat so much so that he didn't even notice - but Rand needed an interpreter, a 'woman' who talked like 'an old book'. I wonder how accurate that translation was. It was certainly good enough that he was able to use the info to cleanse saidin; but what of the rest? In particular, the rather baffling bit about 'if you would live, you must die'? Perhaps the Aelfinn actually said, 'to live, you must meet Moridin', recalling that moridin translates as 'death'. Or there was some similar mistranslation, of question and/or answer.

 

 

BS has said that Moridin didn't mean anything other than moridin in a book signing/talk. I think it was in baltimore

[Dreamwalker]

My bad :) I'll keep looking.  

 

Would you mind telling me what the outcome of that discussion was, or what page no.(s) it was on?

 

Opinions varied from Rand simply looking more mature, with harder eyes and lines on his face, to having a stye in his eye to bearing a Chosen mark.

You don't have outcomes on DM forums! :)

 

 

I think some others (including myself) argued that this was Lanfear referring to Rand's developing relationship with Elayne, which happens around the same time frame - that she was essentially saying you've been marked/claimed by another woman, but you're mine. Right before Lanfear says it, Rand thinks how seeing "Selene" didn't have the same mesmerizing effect on him as she once did. Following "Selene's" remark about being marked, Rand tries to kind of brush her off, saying there was "never more between us than companionship" - basically trying to break off any implied relationship she may think they have, yielding the further wry response from Lanfear "You have been marked." There, she's seen that he feels strongly enough for Elayne that he's trying to end it with her, so Elayne's hold on him is more than Lanfear first suspected.

 

Lanfear did always think of him like he was her property, so using the term "marked" like marking your territory, makes sense for her to use in terms of their relationship because that's how she sees him - as her property.

[FarShainMael]

I'm re-reading TSR ATM, and I'm noticing a few things.. (such as, why was Thom known as the 'Grey Fox'..) One of these items is what happens after Rand, Mat, and Moiraine have been through the Aelfinn gateway. It turns out that the Aelfinn speak what M describes as a 'rather harsh dialect' of the Old Tongue. She and Mat understood it - Mat so much so that he didn't even notice - but Rand needed an interpreter, a 'woman' who talked like 'an old book'. I wonder how accurate that translation was. It was certainly good enough that he was able to use the info to cleanse saidin; but what of the rest? In particular, the rather baffling bit about 'if you would live, you must die'? Perhaps the Aelfinn actually said, 'to live, you must meet Moridin', recalling that moridin translates as 'death'. Or there was some similar mistranslation, of question and/or answer.

 

 

BS has said that Moridin didn't mean anything other than moridin in a book signing/talk. I think it was in baltimore

 

I'm not suggesting that 'moridin' means anything else. I'm suggesting that the Aelfinn may have said 'meet Moridin (the person)*', but the interpreter translated this as 'meet death', i.e. 'die'.

 

*who was reincarnated from Ishy/Ba'alz by the DO, somewhere between TDR and ACOS.

 

[JakeBarnes]

Yea, I thought Moridin meant Death in the Old Tongue.  That's a really interesting theory FarShainMael.  More evidence for the Body Swap theory, maybe?

[FarShainMael]

Quite possibly. Rand may have his 'd'oh' moment when he sees the HoV again, because of its inscription:

 

'Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin'

 

Someone's already noticed the uppercase 'M' there.

 

[Aquarius]

Quite possibly. Rand may have his 'd'oh' moment when he sees the HoV again, because of its inscription:

 

'Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin'

 

Someone's already noticed the uppercase 'M' there.

 

How do we usually translate that ? "the grave is no bar to my call" is that it ?

What do you imply with that ?

- Moridin coming to fight for whoever blows the horn, be it the Light

- Moridin scheming something to prevent the Heroes to come & fight... but it wont work

 

 

or else ...

 

putting a capital M is perfectly normal Old Tongue grammar ? :p

[FarShainMael]

You should be able to deduce my meaning from the preceding few posts. If you're still stuck, I'm sure Jake can help you out.

 

(do we have a 'roll eyes' smiley..)

 

[StefanR]

Quite possibly. Rand may have his 'd'oh' moment when he sees the HoV again, because of its inscription:

 

'Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin'

 

Someone's already noticed the uppercase 'M' there.

 

How do we usually translate that ? "the grave is no bar to my call" is that it ?

What do you imply with that ?

- Moridin coming to fight for whoever blows the horn, be it the Light

- Moridin scheming something to prevent the Heroes to come & fight... but it wont work

 

 

or else ...

 

putting a capital M is perfectly normal Old Tongue grammar ? :p

 

It's been stated by either RJ or BS that that particular quote on the HoV doesn't mean Moridin the person

[JakeBarnes]

*Facepalm*

 

We're saying that if Rand sees the horn again, "Moridin" will stand out because of the capitalization.

Rand could then recall that Ishamael is now Moridin and the man from Shadar Logoth.  In the context of the inscription, he could realize that "Moridin" is death, and that the Finns' words could have been misinterpreted.

[chuckievi]

Quite possibly. Rand may have his 'd'oh' moment when he sees the HoV again, because of its inscription:

 

'Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin'

 

Someone's already noticed the uppercase 'M' there.

 

How do we usually translate that ? "the grave is no bar to my call" is that it ?

What do you imply with that ?

- Moridin coming to fight for whoever blows the horn, be it the Light

- Moridin scheming something to prevent the Heroes to come & fight... but it wont work

 

 

or else ...

 

putting a capital M is perfectly normal Old Tongue grammar ? :p

 

It's been stated by either RJ or BS that that particular quote on the HoV doesn't mean Moridin the person

 

Please quote the "stated".

[Hadilmir]

@Hadilmir, they wouldn't need to travel south, because of the waygate at Malkier.  It's mentioned somewhere in the books that that is where they enter, somewhere around where Perrin has to close the Manatheran waygate I think.

What I meant was that the nearest Waygate to Imre Stand was Yontiang by(on?) Kinslayer's Dagger. Where they entered the Ways is irrelevant. The Blight exists to the North of the Waste too, so heading South through half the Waste sounds better than traveling through the Ways and then heading East through half the Waste.

 

I don't doubt the Ogier darkfriends part either, remember Ingtar and his motives? I just don't think they'll be important in any way to the story.

[Paerish Swar]

Quite possibly. Rand may have his 'd'oh' moment when he sees the HoV again, because of its inscription:

 

'Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin'

 

Someone's already noticed the uppercase 'M' there.

 

How do we usually translate that ? "the grave is no bar to my call" is that it ?

What do you imply with that ?

- Moridin coming to fight for whoever blows the horn, be it the Light

- Moridin scheming something to prevent the Heroes to come & fight... but it wont work

 

 

or else ...

 

putting a capital M is perfectly normal Old Tongue grammar ? :p

 

It's been stated by either RJ or BS that that particular quote on the HoV doesn't mean Moridin the person

 

Please quote the "stated".

 

I don't have any quotes that I can reference for this, but I seem to remember something about this issue.

 

I think it is an old tongue grammar thing.  A lot of words in the old tongue mean different things depending on how it is used.  I think the capital M does in fact alter the meaning.

 

I don't know where I'm remembering this from, but I'm pretty sure that the lower case moridin would typically mean "the grave," but when it is capitalized it actually means "the grave" as a metaphor specifically meaning "death."

 

I could totally be making this up here, but I think "moridin" would best be translated as the noun, grave, while "Moridin" would best be translated as the noun, death.  Throughout this whole series whenever we see an old tongue translation it is always a bit fuzzy.

 

I think even Ishamael makes a comment at some point that his name means "death," and never references it as meaning "the grave."  (I think Moghedien thinks something to this extent as well)  This would be in keeping with the capitalization of his name, not just as a proper name, but as the specific word - death.

 

There is also a RJ quote that says the HoV is from an age prior to the AoL, so there isn't necessarily any correlation between the use of the poetic word for death on the horn and Moridin's use of the same poetic word for death as his name many ages later.  It's just another colorful word that works well in both cases.

[chuckievi]

I don't doubt your memory, I was just unable to find the quote when I went searching so I was curious. 

[StefanR]

Letter on the Old Tongue - 21 November 1994 - Bruce reporting

 

The word "moridin" means "grave" or "tomb," but when capitalized it means "the grave," standing for "death."

 

 

[iferna1]

what about the music box ter'angreal?  wasn't that found in TSR in Rhuidean (even though it isn't specifically mentioned)?  then it pops up a few times later.  I think it'll be used to save Moraine...

i believe it was found in tanchico and identified by avi . wouldnt that be a good place to store " the song " the tinkers are searching for ?

[birtikidis]

I was thinking it would be used to help save Moraine from the ToG, but hell, it would also be a good place to store "THE SONG!!!!" that was in book 5 though wasn't it?

[Sharaman]

what about the music box ter'angreal?  wasn't that found in TSR in Rhuidean (even though it isn't specifically mentioned)?  then it pops up a few times later.  I think it'll be used to save Moraine...

i believe it was found in tanchico and identified by avi . wouldnt that be a good place to store " the song " the tinkers are searching for ?

 

Ebou Dar I think = and Book VII so, out of range.

 

[JakeBarnes]

 

I don't have any quotes that I can reference for this, but I seem to remember something about this issue.

 

I think it is an old tongue grammar thing.  A lot of words in the old tongue mean different things depending on how it is used.  I think the capital M does in fact alter the meaning.

 

I don't know where I'm remembering this from, but I'm pretty sure that the lower case moridin would typically mean "the grave," but when it is capitalized it actually means "the grave" as a metaphor specifically meaning "death."

 

I could totally be making this up here, but I think "moridin" would best be translated as the noun, grave, while "Moridin" would best be translated as the noun, death.  Throughout this whole series whenever we see an old tongue translation it is always a bit fuzzy.

 

I think even Ishamael makes a comment at some point that his name means "death," and never references it as meaning "the grave."  (I think Moghedien thinks something to this extent as well)  This would be in keeping with the capitalization of his name, not just as a proper name, but as the specific word - death.

 

There is also a RJ quote that says the HoV is from an age prior to the AoL, so there isn't necessarily any correlation between the use of the poetic word for death on the horn and Moridin's use of the same poetic word for death as his name many ages later.  It's just another colorful word that works well in both cases.

 

That isn't the point.  We don't believe the Horn is referencing Ishidin.  We just think that seeing the word Moridin, linking it to its old tongue meaning, and concluding that his interpreter could have misinterpreted the answer, could lead Rand to the Body Swap. 

 

In fact, your reasoning kind of strengthens this argument, because what reason would the interpreter have to think the words meant anything other than to die?  The interpreter definitely wasn't aware of someone named Moridin.

[FarShainMael]

*Facepalm*

 

We're saying that if Rand sees the horn again, "Moridin" will stand out because of the capitalization.

Rand could then recall that Ishamael is now Moridin and the man from Shadar Logoth.  In the context of the inscription, he could realize that "Moridin" is death, and that the Finns' words could have been misinterpreted.

 

Exactly.

 

[Sharaman]

 

I don't have any quotes that I can reference for this, but I seem to remember something about this issue.

 

I think it is an old tongue grammar thing.  A lot of words in the old tongue mean different things depending on how it is used.  I think the capital M does in fact alter the meaning.

 

I don't know where I'm remembering this from, but I'm pretty sure that the lower case moridin would typically mean "the grave," but when it is capitalized it actually means "the grave" as a metaphor specifically meaning "death."

 

I could totally be making this up here, but I think "moridin" would best be translated as the noun, grave, while "Moridin" would best be translated as the noun, death.  Throughout this whole series whenever we see an old tongue translation it is always a bit fuzzy.

 

I think even Ishamael makes a comment at some point that his name means "death," and never references it as meaning "the grave."  (I think Moghedien thinks something to this extent as well)  This would be in keeping with the capitalization of his name, not just as a proper name, but as the specific word - death.

 

There is also a RJ quote that says the HoV is from an age prior to the AoL, so there isn't necessarily any correlation between the use of the poetic word for death on the horn and Moridin's use of the same poetic word for death as his name many ages later.  It's just another colorful word that works well in both cases.

 

That isn't the point.  We don't believe the Horn is referencing Ishidin.  We just think that seeing the word Moridin, linking it to its old tongue meaning, and concluding that his interpreter could have misinterpreted the answer, could lead Rand to the Body Swap. 

 

In fact, your reasoning kind of strengthens this argument, because what reason would the interpreter have to think the words meant anything other than to die?  The interpreter definitely wasn't aware of someone named Moridin.

OTOH when RJ was asked if he was punning in the Asmo "Death took him" sentence, he said " Oh God! No!" disgustedly.

If he wasn't punning then, and he was disgusted at the thought, would he have been punning here?

Just saying ---

[Knobs Mahoney]

"You, sir, told me that this was Ipswitch when it is in fact Bolton."

"It was a pun."

"A PUN?!?!"

"No, not a pun. That other thing that's spelled the same backwards as forwards."

"A palindrome?"

"Yes! A palindrome!"

"A palindrome of 'Bolton' would be 'Notlob'--it don't work!"

[JakeBarnes]

 

I don't have any quotes that I can reference for this, but I seem to remember something about this issue.

 

I think it is an old tongue grammar thing.  A lot of words in the old tongue mean different things depending on how it is used.  I think the capital M does in fact alter the meaning.

 

I don't know where I'm remembering this from, but I'm pretty sure that the lower case moridin would typically mean "the grave," but when it is capitalized it actually means "the grave" as a metaphor specifically meaning "death."

 

I could totally be making this up here, but I think "moridin" would best be translated as the noun, grave, while "Moridin" would best be translated as the noun, death.  Throughout this whole series whenever we see an old tongue translation it is always a bit fuzzy.

 

I think even Ishamael makes a comment at some point that his name means "death," and never references it as meaning "the grave."  (I think Moghedien thinks something to this extent as well)  This would be in keeping with the capitalization of his name, not just as a proper name, but as the specific word - death.

 

There is also a RJ quote that says the HoV is from an age prior to the AoL, so there isn't necessarily any correlation between the use of the poetic word for death on the horn and Moridin's use of the same poetic word for death as his name many ages later.  It's just another colorful word that works well in both cases.

 

That isn't the point.  We don't believe the Horn is referencing Ishidin.  We just think that seeing the word Moridin, linking it to its old tongue meaning, and concluding that his interpreter could have misinterpreted the answer, could lead Rand to the Body Swap. 

 

In fact, your reasoning kind of strengthens this argument, because what reason would the interpreter have to think the words meant anything other than to die?  The interpreter definitely wasn't aware of someone named Moridin.

OTOH when RJ was asked if he was punning in the Asmo "Death took him" sentence, he said " Oh God! No!" disgustedly.

If he wasn't punning then, and he was disgusted at the thought, would he have been punning here?

Just saying ---

 

It's not a pun.  It is a legitimate misinterpretation of a dead language.

Pun: the humorous use of a word or phrase so as to emphasize or suggest its different meanings or applications, or the use of words that are alike or nearly alike in sound but different in meaning; a play on words.

 

 

[FarShainMael]

It's not a pun.  It is a legitimate misinterpretation of a dead language.

 

Specifically, it's mistaking the person (Moridin) for the thing (moridin).