The One Power (Full Book Spoilers)--No Balefire!

[jemron]

Cool quotes.  What are your thoughts regarding how they relate to and/or disagree with my theories and thoughts?

 

The TP could still be limited in a reservoir of the non-replenishing type, in that it comes from a source (the Dark One) which we can assume is limited and not infinite.

 

The DO and the Creator being the yin/yang could fit in with my thought that they are both imprisoned by each other (forces colliding to prevent each other from intervening with the Pattern), but I know it is probably unlikely.

 

I guess we just don't know enough about the TP yet.  Does the TP replenish or return to the DO similar to how the OP returns back to the True Source?  Or does the TP dissipate and run out eventually after it's been channeled away?

 

I still wonder exactly how Rand's access to the TP will play a role in the end...  Will it help him destroy and or re-imprison the DO, or will it help the DO have an edge over him and/or kill him (Rand) in the end?

[wasted]

What I would like to see in the books or at least know, is wether a male-male bonding would have similar effects like a female-female bonding.

 

And how or if at all, the common warderbond would interact with the new ashaman bond, meaning Aes Sedai XY warder-bonds Ashaman XZ and Ashaman XZ ashaman-bonds Aes Sadai XY.

[Nightstrike]

The TP could still be limited in a reservoir of the non-replenishing type, in that it comes from a source (the Dark One) which we can assume is limited and not infinite.

 

The DO and the Creator being the yin/yang could fit in with my thought that they are both imprisoned by each other (forces colliding to prevent each other from intervening with the Pattern), but I know it is probably unlikely.

 

I guess we just don't know enough about the TP yet.  Does the TP replenish or return to the DO similar to how the OP returns back to the True Source?  Or does the TP dissipate and run out eventually after it's been channeled away?

If the DO dies a little every time the TP is used, then he wouldn't let anyone channel it. Besides, the DO is a God-like being. The dark counterpart to the Creator.

 

I still wonder exactly how Rand's access to the TP will play a role in the end...  Will it help him destroy and or re-imprison the DO, or will it help the DO have an edge over him and/or kill him (Rand) in the end?

No, it won't let him re-imprison the DO. Channeling TP near Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly. Channeling OP near Shayol Ghul would let the DO taint whatever saidin/saidar is channeled there.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

But also, when Rand and co. cleansed the taint, didn't he channel all of saidin through Shadar Logoth using the CK somehow?

 

The analog that works best for the Cleansing is an electrical cable.  Saidar was the cable sheath.  Saidin was the wire.  The taint was the electrons that flow along the surface of the wire.

 

Rand just plugged the cable into Shadar Logoth, and let the attraction of the opposite evils draw the taint into the city.  Rand actually channeled very little of saidin.  Just enough to provide a "connection."

[elec1cele]

No, it won't let him re-imprison the DO. Channeling TP near Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly. Channeling OP near Shayol Ghul would let the DO taint whatever saidin/saidar is channeled there.

 

Do you have a reference for Channeling the OP near SG lets the DO touch it.  I thought the way LT spoke about it that the OP had to be "tocuhing" the DO for him to affect it.  I took that to mean the OP had to be directed at the DO for him to be able to taint it.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Bob, Rand channeled all of saidin. He had to, in order to cleanse it. That is why he had to push it for hours through the conduit of saidar, which he channeled very little of. The Salidar expedition puts it as "Dragonmount next to an anthill" or something very similar, in saidin to saidar context. I read somewhere, possibly in one of Nightstrike's quotes, that RJ has said that the one power is finite, but after it is used it is recycled returns to turning the wheel, until it is used again. Therefore, in order to cleanse the taint, Rand used the Choedan Kal to force the entirety of saidin, though obviously not all at once, through his conduit and into Shadar Logoth.

[Sentinel78]

Bob, Rand channeled all of saidin. He had to, in order to cleanse it. That is why he had to push it for hours through the conduit of saidar, which he channeled very little of. The Salidar expedition puts it as "Dragonmount next to an anthill" or something very similar, in saidin to saidar context. I read somewhere, possibly in one of Nightstrike's quotes, that RJ has said that the one power is finite, but after it is used it is recycled returns to turning the wheel, until it is used again. Therefore, in order to cleanse the taint, Rand used the Choedan Kal to force the entirety of saidin, though obviously not all at once, through his conduit and into Shadar Logoth.

 

I was literally typing this same thing when it was posted.. Jaric beat me.

[karehiro]

Yeah Rand channeled a much greater amount of saidin in proportion to saidar, and he referenced the fact that the taint was like an ocean in of itself since it lied on the surface of all of saidin.  

 

The only question is why the cleansing didn't affect the Asha'man or male Forsaken's channeling since the One Power is a finite (but infinitely reusable) source).  Since Rand had to cleanse all of saidin, that means he had to channel all of it, which should mean Narishma/Elza shouldn't have been able to channel saidin through Callandor, and male channelers should have at least been affected.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Not really. It's recycled instantly I'd assume (dangerous I know), thus while it took forever to cycle ALL of Saidin through the filter, there was always more available for others to use, either Saidan that HAD gone through the filter and been returned to the pool, or still tainted saidin, which, after channeling, would be returned to the pool! :D

 

I'm trying really hard to avoid tainted swimming pool jokes here.

[Sentinel78]

Yeah Rand channeled a much greater amount of saidin in proportion to saidar, and he referenced the fact that the taint was like an ocean in of itself since it lied on the surface of all of saidin. 

 

The only question is why the cleansing didn't affect the Asha'man or male Forsaken's channeling since the One Power is a finite (but infinitely reusable) source).  Since Rand had to cleanse all of saidin, that means he had to channel all of it, which should mean Narishma/Elza shouldn't have been able to channel saidin through Callandor, and male channelers should have at least been affected.

 

I don't think Rand was using 'all' of saidin when cleansing the taint.  This is from the Veins of Gold chapter, pg. 758, 2/3 of the way down the page:

 

The Power coming to him through the access key was greater than he'd held when cleansing saidin.  Perhaps greater than any man had ever held.  Great enough to unravel the Pattern itself and bring final peace.

 

If Rand was capable of holding more saidin in this scene, this implies Rand was not holding 'all' of saidin during the cleansing.  The taint was always described as a coat of oil on an ocean of saidin... You don't have to hold all of the water at once apparently to get the oil off.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

He wasn't holding it all on top of Dragonmount. I was saying he had channeled all of it over the however many hours he was doing the cleansing, as by your ocean analogy, everytime he scooped some out, more rushed in to fill it, so he would need to force all of it through the siphon to clean it. I know its not a perfect explanation but its the best I can think of after being up for 34 hours.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

He wasn't holding it all on top of Dragonmount. I was saying he had channeled all of it over the however many hours he was doing the cleansing, as by your ocean analogy, everytime he scooped some out, more rushed in to fill it, so he would need to force all of it through the siphon to clean it. I know its not a perfect explanation but its the best I can think of after being up for 34 hours.

 

Dragonmount can do that to you.

[elec1cele]

I kinda agree with Bob,  IIRC he started out channeling all of saidin he could thru the tunnel into Shadar Logoth, but by the end he was basically channeling just the taint into it.  That is how I remember it reading when I read that section of the book.  

 

Also it never seemed to me that all of saidin had the taint in it just that you ahd to pass thru the taint to reach saidin.  Going to the ocean metaphor if the Atlantic had a film of oil over it you wouldn't need to clean all the water in the ocean to get rid of it just find a way to skim it off the surface.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I might be reading too much into it but I can't picture a way to choose which part of saidin to grab, like your skimming the surface analogy. I know that is how it is described but I'm having trouble with the actual skimming of something which Rand says he reaches out and "takes hold of" or "seizes."

 

Barring a quote from Brandon or Team Jordan, we'll probably never know, so meh, w/e. This isn't one of the things I feel strongly enough about to argue for months and dozens of thread pages over.

[elec1cele]

Emma: Can you give some more details on how the taint was cleansed? I was sort of confused reading the book.

RJ: You don't think it's obvious?

Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same.  That will both attract one another and negate one another.

 

The way I read this is Rand didn't choose to channel the taint but that Shadar Logoth attracted the taint thru the tunnel Rand made.

[Nightstrike]

Do you have a reference for Channeling the OP near SG lets the DO touch it.  I thought the way LT spoke about it that the OP had to be "tocuhing" the DO for him to affect it.  I took that to mean the OP had to be directed at the DO for him to be able to taint it.

 

Copied from Theoryland:

Q:  Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

RJ:  Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at  Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals.  In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this.  As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?

Q:  Yes, yes.

RJ:  Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go.  And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it.  The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.  And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint.  But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

 

I thought the way LT spoke about it that the OP had to be "tocuhing" the DO for him to affect it.

So the sealing of the Bore meant that the OP was touching the DO? I don't think so...

 

 

[Nightstrike]

The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction.

The way I read this is Rand didn't choose to channel the taint but that Shadar Logoth attracted the taint thru the tunnel Rand made.

I don't agree with your interpretation. Saidin was passing through the conduit, siphoning off the taint onto Shadar Logoth. That's why saidar worked to repel saidin through the conduit.

 

[Mcpatrick]

 

I thought the way LT spoke about it that the OP had to be "tocuhing" the DO for him to affect it.

So the sealing of the Bore meant that the OP was touching the DO? I don't think so...

 

Chapter 22, page 345, The last that could be done.

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

 

 

[Nightstrike]

 

I thought the way LT spoke about it that the OP had to be "tocuhing" the DO for him to affect it.

So the sealing of the Bore meant that the OP was touching the DO? I don't think so...

 

Chapter 22, page 345, The last that could be done.

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

OK, maybe I was wrong then. There was this RJ quote where he said channeling at the pit of doom had unpleasant side effects because the DO was consciously acting. I thought that might have meant that the backlash was a result of the DO consciously acting.

 

[elec1cele]

The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction.

The way I read this is Rand didn't choose to channel the taint but that Shadar Logoth attracted the taint thru the tunnel Rand made.

I don't agree with your interpretation. Saidin was passing through the conduit, siphoning off the taint onto Shadar Logoth. That's why saidar worked to repel saidin through the conduit.

 

The parts I was referring to are later in what I had quoted.  here are the parts i think relevant bolded.

 

Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same.  That will both attract one another and negate one another.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I might be reading too much into it but I can't picture a way to choose which part of saidin to grab, like your skimming the surface analogy. I know that is how it is described but I'm having trouble with the actual skimming of something which Rand says he reaches out and "takes hold of" or "seizes."

 

Barring a quote from Brandon or Team Jordan, we'll probably never know, so meh, w/e. This isn't one of the things I feel strongly enough about to argue for months and dozens of thread pages over.

 

Go back to my analogy, Jaric.  Saidin is the wire.  The taint is the valence electrons.  Plug in the wire, and the valence electrons flow.

 

All Rand had to do was to maintain the saidar conduit, force enough saidin through that conduit to reach to Shadar Logoth, then hold it there, and the attraction between the two evils siphoned all of the taint from the surface of saidin.

 

That's why Jordan made saidin ( and saidar, too ) finite.  So that the taint would also be finite and could all be siphoned away.

[jemron]

I think I agree with Bob T Dwarf, though I originally thought that Rand channeled all of the male half of the OP through the conduit, I'm starting to think that he just channeled a TON of it, and not all of it through, causing the taint on said "TON of it" to become attracted to/siphoned off by the evil of Shadar Logoth.  Then both of those evils killed each other.

 

Crazy cool.

[Sentinel78]

Go back to my analogy, Jaric.  Saidin is the wire.  The taint is the valence electrons.  Plug in the wire, and the valence electrons flow.

 

All Rand had to do was to maintain the saidar conduit, force enough saidin through that conduit to reach to Shadar Logoth, then hold it there, and the attraction between the two evils siphoned all of the taint from the surface of saidin.

 

Good metaphor!  Makes sense to this electrical/computer engineer.  I previously thought of the cleansing as if saidin was being 'squeezed' into a tube of saidar such that there was no room for the taint in the tube, so it was basically being scraped off and deposited on Shadar Logoth or something, but this characterization makes more sense.  The throbbing of Rand's wounds beating in opposition to each other, etc., all points to opposite poles. 

 

I guess we were lucky that Shadar Logoth's amount of 'evil' was near to exactly equal to the taint then?

[jemron]

I don't think that they were necessarily equal in "amount" they just both destroyed each other "equally."

[Ged]

I thought Rand was using repulsion between Saidin and Saidar to separate and filter away the taint. Kinda like using magnets near a mixture of iron and sand... the sand wouldn't be moved by the magnet while the iron would.