Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[WolfDragonFox]

Yeppers, now I only vaguely know of this Cipher I don't remember too well, someone run that down for me what is it? Man I hate not remembering things.

[Sharaman]

The BA communicate by means of ciphers, and warded mgs, so that even one BA member doesn't get to know another and if the wrong BA gets a msg she wouldn't make sense of it. They have 3-person cells called hearts and each BA knows only one BA outside the heart.

Only the head BA knows every other BA member and there's a supreme council, which knows a fair amount about each other I'd guess.

Alvi who is head BA (and a White hence, a logic-math specialist) still needs to work her butt off to read the ciphers.

This is all culled from various bits of CoT and KoD and some from PoD.

Now Verin can invent ciphers (and writes/decodes them without reference to texts) as we learn from her PoV in PoD. 

She may well have been the person who invented the current cipher the BA use or at least, she certainly has the smarts to have cracked it at sight. She also has total recall or close to it in the way that some academics do - Cadsuane thinks about this once when Verin and some other Brown sister get into discussing Animals in the Drowned Lands. So she could glance at a warded msg and recall it perfectly before the ward destroyed it and thus, decipher it.

Which would explain some of what she's gleaned in the way of info.

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Sharaman I read two lines and immediately remembered all this, I never forgot about the hearts, just the message part.  Thanks a bill

[Charles Mahan]

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere, but apologies if it has been and I missed it.

 

I don't believe Verin ever considered poisoning Cadsuane in Far Madding. I I think she was considering whether or not to confide in her.  The poison was for Verin, not Cadsuane.  Something Cadsuane said convinced her that she was not the person to entrust the secret.  In all likelihood, it was Cadsuane's confession that she was totally focused on Rand.  I don't have the book in front of me, but I think I am correct here.  Verin would have seen Cadsuane as someone who would have gone after the Black Ajah eventually, but Rand would always take precedence for her.  It is also possible she could not be sure, even then that Cadsuane was not Black.

 

I suspect she had begun considering passing her secrets on to Cadsuane before they left Cairhien, which would explain why she obtained the poison from the Wise One(Sorilea?). 

[Sharaman]

Verin obtained the poison from the WO (saying she was having trouble sleeping) specifically to avoid having to kill somebody with the power. She palmed the poison while chatting to Cadsuane and making Cad's tea. She put it away only after Cad's convo convinced her that Cad was not anti-Rand/ BA. At which point she asked how much honey Cads wanted.

Very clear from the description and the PoV that Verin was prepared to poison Cads and had no intention of offing herself. Even at the Tower, when she finally did it, it was as a backup. She wanted to try the Oath Rod first but failed to get it.

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

*Nevermind*

[Ged]

So... one wonders what is in Verin's notes apart from the info on the Black Ajah.

 

What are the objectives of major factions of DFs? Or rather... are they interesting? Considering the Forsaken - probably not.

 

I'd really appreciate it if Brandon were to take some creative license and add at least a few good non-channeling baddies to WoT. At least, let there be some impression that the Shadow is trying to put up a good fight and isn't just going to be crushed under the Pattern's luck based boot heals.

 

Seriously, its about time the DO actually fried the pattern so we can have a respectable war between Light and Shadow.

 

Anyway, what other truths do we expect Verin's notes to reveal? ... I got nothing unexpected or unusual that would make the story seem better.

 

Anyone else have high expectations?

[Charles Mahan]

I am furiously curious about Verin's musings about what the Dark One really wants. She threw a fair amount of doubt as to his true intentions.

[Blackhoof]

The most memorable thing for me was how Verin nonchalantly said "... I am Black Ajah, after all" I nearly cried in her death scene, it was so sad. One of the most memorable and epic scenes in the series, definately.

[drgnrbrn316]

Verin's story was a surprise to me. I was reading along when she just pops up with a very casual "your dress is green." The implications were shocking. At that moment, a guest arrives at my door, so I have to put the book down and be a good host, all the while the possibilities float in my head. Is she good? Is she bad? What will this mean for Egwene? So, while many got to read through the revelation in one sitting, I had the joy of getting it as a cliff hanger ending to an episode, with the fallout to be revealed in the next episode. At least I only suffered a few hours as opposed to having to wait a week, or worse, an entire summer rerun schedule.

[jemron]

Seriously, its about time the DO actually fried the pattern so we can have a respectable war between Light and Shadow.

 

 

Dude, I don't know if this belongs here, but that comment of yours just totally sparked a really crazy/cool theory in my mind.

 

What if the "last battle" comes down to Rand (ta'veren) vs. DO where the DO is attempting to "unravel the Pattern" and Rand's amazingly powerful ta'veren-ness is counterbalancing that by keeping the Pattern together.  Like Rand is the one thread that cannot break, and he's managed to grab hold of just about every other thread through his influence, so as hard as the DO attempts to tear the Pattern apart, he can't do it unless Rand allows it because Rand is like the ultimate Thread of Cuendillar (or something stronger) that can't be broken (and therefore the Pattern won't be able to be broken).

 

Interesting...  I'm gonna have to think more on this, but that would be EPIC.

[somathus]

 

I'd really appreciate it if Brandon were to take some creative license and add at least a few good non-channeling baddies to WoT. At least, let there be some impression that the Shadow is trying to put up a good fight and isn't just going to be crushed under the Pattern's luck based boot heals.

 

Seriously, its about time the DO actually fried the pattern so we can have a respectable war between Light and Shadow.

 

 

You mean Darkfriends that can't channel?  How about Jachim Carridin, Suroth, Algemar, etc.

[jemron]

 

I'd really appreciate it if Brandon were to take some creative license and add at least a few good non-channeling baddies to WoT. At least, let there be some impression that the Shadow is trying to put up a good fight and isn't just going to be crushed under the Pattern's luck based boot heals.

 

Seriously, its about time the DO actually fried the pattern so we can have a respectable war between Light and Shadow.

 

 

You mean Darkfriends that can't channel?  How about Jachim Carridin, Suroth, Algemar, etc.

 

He did say a "few good baddies".  And by that, I think he meant "really bada**."  Those listed above can hardly be considered "good baddies" IMO.  Just sayin'.

[Sharaman]

Algemar is who? If you mean Jagad, the great Captain of Shienar and Fal Dara, what makes you believe he's a DF?

I'm not saying he's not (at least not yet) but what is your line of logic?

 

[1eejit]

 

I'd really appreciate it if Brandon were to take some creative license and add at least a few good non-channeling baddies to WoT. At least, let there be some impression that the Shadow is trying to put up a good fight and isn't just going to be crushed under the Pattern's luck based boot heals.

 

Seriously, its about time the DO actually fried the pattern so we can have a respectable war between Light and Shadow.

 

 

You mean Darkfriends that can't channel?  How about Jachim Carridin, Suroth, Algemar, etc.

 

He did say a "few good baddies".  And by that, I think he meant "really bada**."  Those listed above can hardly be considered "good baddies" IMO.  Just sayin'.

 

Padan Fain.

 

'nuff said.

[mossman87]

Q:  Will more Heroes be bound to the Horn? 

RJ:  RAFO.

 

Maybe we'll see a cameo of Verin again.  :) or hell maybe even Ingtar.  That'd be a nice moment.

[WolfDragonFox]

I doubt Ingtar would make it in, but Verin def should, but most heroes or all that I can tell are well known when they are heroes and they keep getting reborn as practically the same person doing the same kind of deeds and fighting the same distinct way.  I hope Verin qualifies somehow but i don't know if she will.  Besides that I don't remember any channelers at all being bound to the wheel and called by the horn.

[Thermos]

Much props for Ingtar, but one heroic action after a lifetime serving the shadow isn't going to be enough for horn duty.  Enough to escape eternal damnation at the hands of the Dark One, sure, but thats about it.

 

I could easily see Verin getting it done though.  She gave her life, something in the neighborhood of 200 years, to subverting the Black Ajah and the forces of the dark in general, at great personal danger to herself, and then took her own life in order to see that her work was made available to the forces of light in a timely manner.  That's in addition to all the good things we've seen her do as an Aes Sedai, such as her pivotal role in saving the entire Two Rivers from being overrun by shadowspawn, her constant aid to Rand while avoiding becoming the sort of nuisance most other sisters become, and whatever else she manages to accomplish with the letter to Mat and the many others we saw she had to give out.

 

By the way, does anybody else think its a near certainty that, after putting off his trip to the Tower of Genji for the ten days or whatever, Mat's going to open the letter, see that it asks him to go to the Tower of Genji, and flip out? 

[Blackhoof]

LOL.

[a great fantasy fan]

That occured to me too. Either that or saying something shocking like "Talmanes is a darkfriend, better kill him"

[Mr Ares]

I doubt Ingtar would make it in, but Verin def should, but most heroes or all that I can tell are well known when they are heroes and they keep getting reborn as practically the same person doing the same kind of deeds and fighting the same distinct way.  I hope Verin qualifies somehow but i don't know if she will.  Besides that I don't remember any channelers at all being bound to the wheel and called by the horn.

Rand's a Hero. Rand can channel.

[WolfDragonFox]

I doubt Ingtar would make it in, but Verin def should, but most heroes or all that I can tell are well known when they are heroes and they keep getting reborn as practically the same person doing the same kind of deeds and fighting the same distinct way.  I hope Verin qualifies somehow but i don't know if she will.  Besides that I don't remember any channelers at all being bound to the wheel and called by the horn.

Rand's a Hero. Rand can channel.

 

Right he is but he wasn't called back by the horn he is LTT reborn just as LTT was reborn from whoever his predeccesor was.  At leas that is my understanding, from what I see, everyone is reborn, not just heroes, Thats why when Aiel go into the ring ter'angreal they see the truth of the past through the eyes of their past lives or ancestors. (don't know if this actually makes my point but it seemed valid to since that is what occurs in there) this stands to reason that both Verin and Ingtar's souls will be reborn as new beings and have another chance to make better choices as that new person (of course they won't know it) and as the famous saying goes, the wheel weaves as the wheel wills.  So I'm not saying they will not be bound to the wheel and called by the horn but their is just a lack of evidence about channelers doing so.

[Mr. Insane]

  Verin used something like compulsion on sisters to make them swear to Rand.  We know the weaves are still in place because Semirhage removes it from Elza.  I wonder if the weaves could have commands hidden in them that activate when the sister is told Verin is dead?

 

  I wonder who else Verin might have used the weave on.  Does Verin confess in her book that she used compulsion on Alanna to force her to bind Rand? Might Egewene telling Rand this change Rand's view of Alanna?  Who else might have some command of Verin's buried in them? some of the two rivers novices that Verin and Alanna took to the rebels?

[mossman87]

I doubt Ingtar would make it in, but Verin def should, but most heroes or all that I can tell are well known when they are heroes and they keep getting reborn as practically the same person doing the same kind of deeds and fighting the same distinct way.  I hope Verin qualifies somehow but i don't know if she will.  Besides that I don't remember any channelers at all being bound to the wheel and called by the horn.

Rand's a Hero. Rand can channel.

 

Right he is but he wasn't called back by the horn he is LTT reborn just as LTT was reborn from whoever his predeccesor was.  At leas that is my understanding, from what I see, everyone is reborn, not just heroes, Thats why when Aiel go into the ring ter'angreal they see the truth of the past through the eyes of their past lives or ancestors. (don't know if this actually makes my point but it seemed valid to since that is what occurs in there) this stands to reason that both Verin and Ingtar's souls will be reborn as new beings and have another chance to make better choices as that new person (of course they won't know it) and as the famous saying goes, the wheel weaves as the wheel wills.  So I'm not saying they will not be bound to the wheel and called by the horn but their is just a lack of evidence about channelers doing so.

 

Not sure exactly what you're arguing here.

Yes, every person gets reborn, but the Heroes are basically a cache of souls the Pattern has access to to spin them out and do whatever deeds need done.

 

And of course channelers can be Heroes of the Horn.

so yeah, it's been a long day so maybe I'm just not reading your post well, I just don't know what you're trying to say.

 

[jadelollipop]

Since it is the soul that is reborn can't it be that in one life you could channel and in another not?

We do know that Rand is a Hero tied to the Horn but what about Mat and Perrin?