Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

You know how birgitte knows heaps because she was reborn dozens of times since the breaking, (and presumably the other heroes did as well). What did she do? Presumably she did hero stuff, but there weren't any big happenings or events that a hero could have been a hero in apart from the Trolloc Wars, hawkings rise and the hundred years war. Those lasted a decades each but thats nothing to the rest of the 3000 years. What hero stuff did they do?

 

Randland and Seanchan have been in a continuous state of war more or less since the Breaking. Think of the all the memories Mat had stuffed in his head. There's been lots of scope for people to go and do hero stuff.

 

[thewalrus777]

You know how birgitte knows heaps because she was reborn dozens of times since the breaking, (and presumably the other heroes did as well). What did she do? Presumably she did hero stuff, but there weren't any big happenings or events that a hero could have been a hero in apart from the Trolloc Wars, hawkings rise and the hundred years war. Those lasted a decades each but thats nothing to the rest of the 3000 years. What hero stuff did they do?

 

Randland and Seanchan have been in a continuous state of war more or less since the Breaking. Think of the all the memories Mat had stuffed in his head. There's been lots of scope for people to go and do hero stuff.

 

 

Not to mention the struggle for power after Hawkwing kicked it. Huge conflicts happened and war broke out for the rights to rule the land. Those mini wars lasted for a very long time, as we've seen in the map changes in regards to kingdoms long gone. 3000 years gives plenty of oppurtunities for heroism.

[Charlz Fel]

You know how birgitte knows heaps because she was reborn dozens of times since the breaking, (and presumably the other heroes did as well). What did she do? Presumably she did hero stuff, but there weren't any big happenings or events that a hero could have been a hero in apart from the Trolloc Wars, hawkings rise and the hundred years war. Those lasted a decades each but thats nothing to the rest of the 3000 years. What hero stuff did they do?

 

A lot of them (including Birgitte) were Hunters for the Horn.  Of course, that doesn't really answer the question.  We know that every time the Great Hunt for the Horn gets called, stories get added to the cycle; but we've never seen exactly what sort of stories.  On the other hand, we have a description of Sleete's story from the chapter "An Offer and a Departure," the Warder who had a hard time getting back to Tar Valon after Dumai's Wells, and are told that "his story was the sort gleemen and bards sang about."  Perhaps many of the Heroes have performed heroism on a much smaller scale than we are used to in this series--rescuing individuals from bandits, and the like.  But then, why are they so important to the Pattern?  There is a vast horde of "stories" present in the culture(s) we read about in the WoT, and we have only a few small glimpses of them.

 

Although, now that I think about it, there is one thing that we do know Birgitte did: she helped somehow in the founding of the White Tower.

[lbeefus]

You know how birgitte knows heaps because she was reborn dozens of times since the breaking, (and presumably the other heroes did as well). What did she do? Presumably she did hero stuff, but there weren't any big happenings or events that a hero could have been a hero in apart from the Trolloc Wars, hawkings rise and the hundred years war. Those lasted a decades each but thats nothing to the rest of the 3000 years. What hero stuff did they do?

 

With all the countries that have come and gone since then, I'm sure she's done plenty. I'll bet she comes and goes plenty of times and figures into minor stories without anyone ever associating the person with Birgitte or her lover with Gaidal. Lots of local heroes, etc.  As far as the pattern using her, one imagines thousands of years of events that have to happen to get us to where the Wheel of Time starts.  Mantherin and Malkier had to fall to produce Mat, Perrin, and Lan, Tear had to make the arrangement with Mayane so that the twisted doorway would end up in the basement of the Stone of Tear; the bloodlines had to be just right to produce the little girl who died in the Stone so that Rand would try to use Callandor to raise her, find the flaw, and therefore leave it in the Stone so that Narishma could follow after... etc.  I imagine the pattern using its heros to ensure these things happen while most of the world still has a semblance of free will.

[CUBAREY]

Presumably she did hero stuff, but there weren't any big happenings or events that a hero could have been a hero in apart from the Trolloc Wars, hawkings rise and the hundred years war. Those lasted a decades each but thats nothing to the rest of the 3000 years. What hero stuff did they do?

 

Not at all true, the three examples you give are of cataclysmic events that caused the world as a whole to almost fall apart or totally change . There were many other events in a smaller scale (the destruction of a specific nation, wars that lasted 10 or 20 years, etc. which would heroic bur not rise to the level of the three events you named. For instance all the Sories surrounding King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table (which I believe is in part what RJ modeled the stories surrounding the Hunters of the Horn on) are heroic but not stories about Armagheddon or the Fall Of Rome which would be our counterparts to the events you mentioned.

[Sharaman]

Although, now that I think about it, there is one thing that we do know Birgitte did: she helped somehow in the founding of the White Tower.

Where is that mentioned?

[JakeBarnes]

From the EWoT: 

KoD,Ch17 � Birgitte and Gaidal Cain contributed to the founding of the White Tower.

 

 

[Sharaman]

From the EWoT: 

KoD,Ch17 � Birgitte and Gaidal Cain contributed to the founding of the White Tower.

Only thing I remember there is that she had lived four times between the founding of the WT and the Trolloc Wars. That's the only reference I get in the encyclopedia as well.

Don't have the book around.

 

[thewalrus777]

From the EWoT:  

KoD,Ch17 � Birgitte and Gaidal Cain contributed to the founding of the White Tower.

Only thing I remember there is that she had lived four times between the founding of the WT and the Trolloc Wars. That's the only reference I get in the encyclopedia as well.

Don't have the book around.

 

 

Birgitte only makes reference to her memories. And not of helping found the WT. The memories are referenced to being about her life BEFORE the founding of the WT, and that those memories are now lost to her. That's from the book.

[b9anders]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but in PoD Verin thinks about how she needs to put down her cipher in writing so it can be decoded, as she has an entire archive of books and journals recorded in it that must not be lost.

 

Obviously, she put the most relevant information in the book for Egwene, but I for one would be very intrigued to learn what is in all the other books...

[Lord Ingtar]

What a great thread. I noticed several post didnt see why Verin was in a hurry to get her information out. Why not wait a day or two to get the oath rod. I think it was time for Verin to act.  I think she put into motion with the letters things that would break here DF oaths.  I think part of her cover were plans for the Great Lord. She has some trust with all of the Two Rivers people so she could have done some real damage to LIghts cause. She had to act for the Light or the Dark. 

[thewalrus777]

What a great thread. I noticed several post didnt see why Verin was in a hurry to get her information out. Why not wait a day or two to get the oath rod. I think it was time for Verin to act.  I think she put into motion with the letters things that would break here DF oaths.  I think part of her cover were plans for the Great Lord. She has some trust with all of the Two Rivers people so she could have done some real damage to LIghts cause. She had to act for the Light or the Dark. 

 

Verin has always been a very calculating individual, even though like a typical Brown, she's often lost in thought. But so far everything she's done has gone according to her schemes. Everything she wants done, will get done. I have a feeling that Verin wasn't hurried in her actions at all. She planned her death to a 'tea'. :D She just set her plans, in motion, also a calculated move on her part. She even had contingency plans set up in case her plan A's didn't work. Verin is a Brown at heart. She is never in a rush.

 

Remember as well, Verin only joined the BA for research purposes, and to be a spy. She is a Lightfriend through and through. She put her soul through a lot of torture to make sure the bad guys don't win. Plus, she was also coerced into being in the BA. It was either join and learn, or die for knowing their secrets.

[Jagen Sedai]

I LOVE YOU VERIN!!!

 

*cries*

[Aquarius]

Remember as well, Verin only joined the BA for research purposes, and to be a spy. She is a Lightfriend through and through. She put her soul through a lot of torture to make sure the bad guys don't win. Plus, she was also coerced into being in the BA. It was either join and learn, or die for knowing their secrets.

I'm tempted to mitigate that judgement. She actively looked for them, to study them, but it seems she joined them to save her neck, more than anything else.

 

As for her schedule. Dying seems to be the contingency plan. She couldn't get her hands on the Oath Rod so she had to kill herself.

 

If Steve Cooper's timeline is accurate enough (and I don't have any indication otherwise) Verin met Egwene a full month after giving Mat the letter. I seem to remember she said to Mat not to open it before 10 days. so I guess the letters aren't linked to her Dark Oaths. What do you think ?

[KefkaPalazzo]

Read the Verin POV in Winter's Heart.  She refers to Graendal as a "Forsaken".  Why does she call her that in her head?  Once she outs herself, she calls then "Chosen", and even uses the word out loud.  One would think that she'd keep using the word in her head.  This was a solid piece of evidence against her being Black.

 

Also, I wonder whose idea turning was, Verin, or Tomas?

[sushisushi]

Also, I wonder whose idea turning was, Verin, or Tomas?

 

From her description in her death scene, it seems that Verin identified him somewhere along the way as a Darkfriend who wanted to turn back to the Light and offered him the choice of becoming her Warder and fellow double agent. Remember that it's been 70 years since Verin joined the Black Ajah, so she hardly had Tomas as a Warder at the time, as he'd have to be over 90 now and Warders don't age <i>that</i> well.

[Thews Lerin]

Read the Verin POV in Winter's Heart.  She refers to Graendal as a "Forsaken".  Why does she call her that in her head?  Once she outs herself, she calls then "Chosen", and even uses the word out loud.  One would think that she'd keep using the word in her head.  This was a solid piece of evidence against her being Black.

 

Also, I wonder whose idea turning was, Verin, or Tomas?

 

As with many things in the WOT, she thought that way so as not to give up her big secret, even to the readers.