pattern of WoT

[Red2111]

as said in a previous thread, bubba and i were disgussing many aspects of the WoT.  one of which was the cycle of the wheel itself concerning Breakings and Civilization.

 

here is what we know for certain

 

7 spokes on the Wheel of Time. 

Breaking happened 3000 yrs ago at the end of the AoL's

we are in the 3rd Age

it is a repetitive cycle, meaning events are doomed to happen again for the rest of time

 

 

here is what we reasoned out

 

- each spoke repersents an Age in the wheel of time

- 7 Ages complete an Age Lace (complete turning of the wheel)

- the AoL repersents the ultimate peak in civilazation

- the 1st Age repersents a nomadic/primative civalization

- each Age lasts about 1000 years

- there are two breakings per Age Lace, happening at the end of the 3rd and the 7th

 

 

 

 

 

[Agitel]

Seven ages in a cycle is pretty commonly agreed on, as is the Dragon (perhaps under different names) being born at least twice a cycle. I believe in the intro to tPoD Moridin is playing sha'rah, and the game seems to reference the previous "Third Age" before the Age of Legends, in my opinion.

 

Also, to say that the First Age is always primitive may be going a bit far, perhaps at the beginning, but remember that Menetheren was created and that treaty between ten nations also existed, and that Randland was better settled then that it is now. It almost seems like the First through Third ages have repeated themselves technology-wise, with the Third Age not reaching nearly the level of the first two. It makes me wonder if a Forsaken such as Ishamael being left unbound is new to this cycle (the patterns differ every cycle, and they get more different the further the cycles are apart), because after the failure for a united front forming in the First Age due to the Trolloc Wars (caused by Ishamael), Artur Hawkwing was spun out it seems specifically to unite the world, as if that was the Wheel's intent. However, he failed, and unless Ishamael was acting according to the Wheel, I wouldn't say that's what the Wheel wanted.

 

I disagree that every age is about 1000 years, that just doesn't make sense when you think about unbound Aes Sedai living half a century if not longer, which may very well have been if the age of 67 was considered one's prime years during the Age of Legends for a non-channeler (forgive me for not quoting for a chapter, but it's in tSR in one of Rand's visions).

 

I've been thinking, and I'm wondering, is The Dark One a part of the Wheel's will to a degree? Or is he separate from it? His intent to destroy it certainly seems counter to being part of the wheel, but without the Dark One it doesn't seem like the Wheel would reset itself. It's as if the wheel is trying to weave a certain pattern, NOT be cyclical, but the Dark One keeps destroying it, so the Wheel has to start from the beginning.

[Lanndon]

As I understood it, the Age of Legends was the 2nd Age.  The last 3000 years has been the Third Age.  The 1st Age we know little to nothing about, but it's assumed by many (for good reason) that the 1st Age is the age we're living in now.  They believe this because of some references to famous figures from "our time", like Queen Elizabeth (Alsbet the Wise Counselor?), or "Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an Eagle", which is undoubtably a reference to John Glenn, the astronaut.  Also, there's a reference to "Mosk and Merk" hurling spears of fire at each other (or something along those lines), which made people think of Moscow and America and nuclear war...though they obviously never went to war.

 

So saying that each age lasts 1000 years is probably wrong.  In fact, I seem to recall reading an interview or Q & A session with RJ where he mentioned that the ages are not necessarily a set number for each age.  One age may be 3000 years long, while another might be 10000 years long. 

 

That's how I remember it.  I'm a little rusty with this stuff though, so I could be off by a bit.  But I think all of this is pretty close to how the Ages are.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though :)

[Agitel]

As I understood it, the Age of Legends was the 2nd Age.  The last 3000 years has been the Third Age.  The 1st Age we know little to nothing about, but it's assumed by many (for good reason) that the 1st Age is the age we're living in now.  They believe this because of some references to famous figures from "our time", like Queen Elizabeth (Alsbet the Wise Counselor?), or "Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an Eagle", which is undoubtably a reference to John Glenn, the astronaut.  Also, there's a reference to "Mosk and Merk" hurling spears of fire at each other (or something along those lines), which made people think of Moscow and America and nuclear war...though they obviously never went to war.

 

So saying that each age lasts 1000 years is probably wrong.  In fact, I seem to recall reading an interview or Q & A session with RJ where he mentioned that the ages are not necessarily a set number for each age.  One age may be 3000 years long, while another might be 10000 years long.  

 

That's how I remember it.  I'm a little rusty with this stuff though, so I could be off by a bit.  But I think all of this is pretty close to how the Ages are.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though :)

 

I like the idea as much as I don't. I know Jordan liked to reference real-world mythology, too. Not as mythology, but as part of his characters. I certainly interpreted the quote about Lenn as referencing space-flight when I read it. The way sha'rah and the Fisher (playing piece) is presented though certainly seems to reference the Dragon and the battle between the Light and the Shadow, and Moridin certainly makes this connection as well after raging over not knowing what knowledge of a previous Age he didn't know when he couldn't figure out why the Fisher was always a man, with a blindfold over his eyes and clutching a bloody wound at his side. Unless Jordan's hinting we discovered the One Power in the real world at some point and fight with the Dark One or something.

 

I just don't know. Has there been any definitive reference as to when the Third Age is? I always interpreted it as AoL -> First Age -> Second Age -> Third Age. The roughly 1000 year intervals followed by great changes since the Breaking hinted at that for me, and another 1000 years for the Third Age to come near a climax (not that all ages are 1000 years, but still). It also, in my mind fits in with the catechism that what-is becomes memory (one age previous), which becomes legend (two ages previous), which becomes myth (three ages), and is then forgotten (any more), where in the Third Age the history of the span from the Trolloc Wars to Artur Hawkwing is reasonably well recorded, the span from the Breaking to the Trolloc Wars is much sparser and is certainly on a more legendary level, and the AoL is even more definitely myth by this time with how little is remembered, and everything before that is forgotten. Whereas there is a four age gap between the Third Age and the Age of Legends (in this scenario), which means by the AoL this whole Light vs Shadow conflict would be forgotten by the time the AoL comes around.

 

But I do admit those real world analogies are enticing, and they do seem strong. For example...

 

Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind (Mother Theresa of India)

 

The story of Lenn, who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire, and his daughter Salya who walked among the stars. Jordan has confirmed these to be references to John Glenn and Sally Ride. Among the first words uttered by Neil Armstrong on the first moon landing were "The eagle has landed."

 

Those two are just really strong examples by themselves. Plus the apparent Mercedes-Benz hood ornament in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico.

 

I don't think the giraffe or elephant mean anything. S'redit appear to be elephants, and a giraffe may exist elsewhere in this world. But if the First Age is now, that doesn't explain the One Power or Portal Stones. Not that everything needs to be explained, but that bothers me. =/

[Red2111]

what i mean by 1st Age = Primative Age  is that it takes humans back to a nomadic tribe like existance wher they must carve out countrys and start civilization again.

 

the Age of Legends to me repersents the 7th and last Age in an Age lace before the parten resets itself and starts anew.

 

the AoL's also repersents the biggest blimax and peak in human civilization/technology.

 

as we know, the ending to the AoL's was LTT breaking the world, a break so devistating that it forced the land to shift and reform, losing all previous technology and forcing all cultures that survived to become nomadic tribes.

 

this for me, is equated to the caveman era of our own RL (in terms of western civilization), where humans were mostly nomadic and there really wasnt a civilized society.

 

in the 2nd age we have Author Hawking and the war of power.  where societys are born, nations are birthed and turf wars are disputed.  this could be the equivalent to the Roman Civilization era of our world history.

 

in the 3rd age, we see that the technologies and living conditions of randland is rather similar to the midevil era in RL.  with kings and queens, the lack of guns, no in door plumbing.  though i think were near the end of the midevil/renassance(sp) era and Rand being born at the beginning of an "industrial revolution" of sorts (4th Age).  as we see evidence of the first locomotive.

 

 

 

i do agree that saying every age is 1000yrs was a bit much.  i just like to work with even numbers, because it makes the process easier.  where i came up with 1 Age = 1000 yrs  is because rand is in the 3rd Age, and if the 7th Age(AoL's) was 3000yrs ago, then that would make it 1000yrs per age.  in reality, life isn't neat and tidy like that and there are millions of ways to divide 3 ages over a span of 3000 years.

 

 

the reason why i believe that the AoL's was the 7th age is because of the breaking itself.  it was sort of like a reset button had been pushed on civilization and the world began to build a new.  this is the perfect time for an Age Lace to start anew.

 

 

 

 

about the forsaken.  i believe that the cycle is as follows

 

AoL's(7th age) dragon is reborn, new Forsaken (13), bore is created, bore is patched, all forsaken except one are sealed, serve breaking to reset pattern --->

1st to 2nd Age society settles and begins anew --->

3rd Age dragon is reborn, forsaken freed, patch of DO prison is torn away, all forsaken are killed, DO prison is sealed correctly, a semi break to boost society --->

4th to 6th Age realative good times and cilivization booming (this is where we would fall in right now as far as RL) --->

AoL's (7th Age)  dragon is reborn, new Forsaken (13), bore is created, bore is patched, all forsaken except one are sealed, serve breaking to reset pattern

 

 

 

repeate forever becomes the wheel of time turns, yadda yadda yadda :)

 

 

[millnoc]

I think you're twisting everything to make it fit your conventional thinking.  "Oh the Breaking was a huge cataclysmic event, it must have been point where the cycle starts over from 7 to 1 again." 

 

That's not how it works, the numbers of the Ages are just that, numbers.  They have no significance.  Right in the first paragraphs are the words "called the Third Age by some".  Maybe in the equivalent Age in 2 cycles of the Wheel they'll call it the Dragon Age, or the Agitel Age.  1000 years per age just isn't enough time for things to change.  With the point made above, that channelers with no Oath Rod have the potential to live more than 500 years, with nations lasting the entirety of the "Age", they don't even have any significance. 

 

I think that the Randlanders' view of the ages are correct and that the AoL was the 2nd Age

[Blackhoof]

Agreed.