Questions/Theories Answered or New Tidbits Added (Full Book Spoilers)

[Sentinel78]

How did Elza Penfell "help Rand in her own way", as Min put it? Was it when she defended him from the Chosen at the Cleansing?

 

I think the viewing was she would "serve" him in her own way.  She was trying to keep him alive until the Dark One could kill him at the Last Battle.

[Eamonn]

'He shall hold a Blade of Light in his hands.'

'And the Three shall be One.'

 

When I heard this prophecy, light dawned in me.

 

In this prophecy, I only see one solution. Its not Rand, Mat, and Perrin, or Min, Aviendha and Elayne.

 

It is the Three Powers.

 

There are Three forces that exist in the Wheel of Time:

 

Saidin.

Saidar.

The True Power.

 

The Male Half. The Female Half. And the power of the Dark One.

 

Creation in both chaotic and orderly forms, and the power of destruction.

 

My speculation on exactly why Callandor is flawed is simple.

 

It is not a Sa'Angreal for just the Male half, but also the True Power. So wielding Saidin with Callandor while it was Tainted, which itself was part of the True Power inflicted on Saidin, magnified the taint.

 

Callandor, wielded by the Dragon, in a ring with two women, allows all three powers to be wielded at once.

 

Saidar itself might also be magnified in some way by Callandor, though there is no evidence yet of this. Or perhaps it doesn't need to be magnified. Perhaps enough of the Power wielded by two women is enough for what must be done.

 

So the three forces that turn the Wheel of Time, the Male and Female half that work in opposition, and the True Power that acts as a force of Entropy on them both, must all work together.

 

Saidin and Saidar, if combined to try and close the Bore, will not be enough. Saidin itself had to /touch/ the Dark One, which is why the Dark One could reach out and touch it.

 

But what would happen if the True Power was used, drawing on the infinite darkness of Shai'tan, to push him back and hold him as Saidin and Saidar are woven together to seal the bore.

 

This is my belief and my thought for the future.

 

It could explain why Rand could always see the threads of the True Power. It could explain why Rand could wield the True Power to kill Semirhage.

 

Rand has the innate gift for both Male AND True Powers, by being who he is. Or by some act that took place earlier. Perhaps as simple as Rand's first confrontation with Ishamael in the first book.

 

And with the two other women, perhaps Elayne and Aviendha, he could seal the Bore and make it as whole as it was before the Dark One was ever found.

 

And, of course, the Prophecy states a possibility too. Perhaps Rand will regain his hand, for it speaks of hands, rather then hand. Or perhaps there will be hands of others holding it with him, spiritually speaking the hands of all his past lives. Or perhaps as simple as the hands of those he loves.

 

 

 

Fascinating theory.......possibly linked to his wound he received from Ishamael? Do you think he will have to 'sheath the sword, that is, thrust Callandor into his own wound, thereby spilling his blood onto the slopes of Shayul Ghul- is sealing the bore linked to Rand's wound?

[Rocky_Outcrop]

The source was tainted when the DO struck back - it was a counter strike.

 

There is a very clear implication here that a one-shot-kill attack from Rand would leave the source fine.

 

That's my two coppers having read the original prologue again for fun a few days ago.

 

Also, the wheel of time is all about balance, the TP is not really in keeping with the balance.

 

Unless it is in balance with the OP, which is doesn't seem to be to me.

[Tel Janin]

Maybe, expounding on the three powers become one theory a bit, the something that must touch the Dark One, will end up being Callendor....

 

Hmmm...  It is an interesting theory....

[Sentinel78]

Maybe, expounding on the three powers become one theory a bit, the something that must touch the Dark One, will end up being Callendor....

 

That seems to be where things are headed.  The question is how?  Literally jam Callandor in the Bore to buy time to teardown the DO's prison and rebuild it?  That might be possible.. When Moghedien gets the mindtrap put on her SH throws the coursava over the Pit of Doom lava lake to a specific point where the Bore was drilled, where the coursava is suspended.  Maybe Rand jams Callandor into that point while the prison is rebuilt.  I think there's a prophecy that says something akin to Rand being physically in the Pit of Doom where he "shall free men of the Shadow".

[Nightstrike]

Channeling TP at Shayol Ghul would fry you instantly. Channeling OP at Shayol Ghul would give the DO opportunity to taint it. Channeling didn't undo the Bore last time they tried. They only patched it up with the seals.

 

Undoing the Bore must be done some other way than through channeling. Book of translation+Ogier+Aiel/tinkers+(maybe some Nym or another construct?) might be the way?  :-\  Perhaps?

 

 

[Sentinel78]

I was never sure if this was a red herring or not, but remember that ter'angreal that Aviendha detected with Elayne (one of the only bearable Elayne chapters) that Aviendha said if you wore it, the Shadow couldn't see you?  Maybe that would help sneak up on the Bore before the ceiling-spikes on the pathway down to the Pit of Doom come crashing down.

[elec1cele]

I think you can channel the OP at the bore w/o it being tainted,  I think you have to be channeling it at the dark one (i.e. you have to be trying to directly affect him in some way) for the dark one to taint the OP.

[Sentinel78]

I think you can channel the OP at the bore w/o it being tainted,  I think you have to be channeling it at the dark one (i.e. you have to be trying to directly affect him in some way) for the dark one to taint the OP.

 

Yeah, it was my understanding the DO had to be in direct contact with the OP to taint it.  The reason you don't want to channel around the Bore is that the DO will detect it and has a lot of control over the environment around there, so you better watch out once you start channeling.

[Nightstrike]

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

Doesn't mention that it has to touch him.

[garion]

Question with a full circle of channelers what is the range that they can go with weaves?  Cause Rand alone had a decent range when using the telescope so what if you had the full circle.

[elec1cele]

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

Doesn't mention that it has to touch him.

 

I just came across this.

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not retaint saidin?

 

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

 

So it may not have even been intentional(although he certainly liked having it that way).  This certainly says to me that just channeling at the pit will not let him taint the OP.

[Nightstrike]

I just came across this.

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not retaint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

So it may not have even been intentional(although he certainly liked having it that way).  This certainly says to me that just channeling at the pit will not let him taint the OP.

What do you mean "not intentional"? The DO certainly had the intention of doing what he did.

 

Maybe you're right about channeling near the pit of Doom. Of course, that would depend on what the "special circumstances" really are.

 

 

[elec1cele]

I just came across this.

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not retaint saidin?

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

So it may not have even been intentional(although he certainly liked having it that way).  This certainly says to me that just channeling at the pit will not let him taint the OP.

What do you mean "not intentional"? The DO certainly had the intention of doing what he did.

 

Maybe you're right about channeling near the pit of Doom. Of course, that would depend on what the "special circumstances" really are.

 

I bolded the section in the quote that implies that it may have just have been a side effect of the DO trying to keep from being sealed away.

 

It may be possible that the "special circumstances" are just being at the pit of doom and channeling, but it seems highly unlikely to me. If so why wouldn't he just have one of the forsaken channel saidin/sadair and taint them at will.

[Sentinel78]

If so why wouldn't he just have one of the forsaken channel saidin/sadair and taint them at will.

 

Ha, good point.  The Forsaken wouldn't be too happy at this order, they'd probably be happier slapping an a'dam or domination band on someone else.  But yeah, if it were that simple the DO would have just retainted the OP that way.

[jemron]

Didn't RJ say that the DO doesn't like anybody channeling near the bore?  Because it's a case of who has the power.  The DO seems to have his own selfish personality.  He wants full control, and so he will burn anybody who channels near Shayol Ghul to a crisp.  Not because he has to, but because he doesn't like it when other people show any sort of ability or power around him.

[elec1cele]

Didn't RJ say that the DO doesn't like anybody channeling near the bore?  Because it's a case of who has the power.  The DO seems to have his own selfish personality.  He wants full control, and so he will burn anybody who channels near Shayol Ghul to a crisp.  Not because he has to, but because he doesn't like it when other people show any sort of ability or power around him.

 

here is a quote from RJ about it

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

 

So it seems to me they can channel at the bore as long as they have permission to do so.

[Nightstrike]

So it seems to me they can channel at the bore as long as they have permission to do so.

I agree. But he probably won't give it.

 

And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed.

So it may not have even been intentional(although he certainly liked having it that way).  This certainly says to me that just channeling at the pit will not let him taint the OP.

I bolded the section in the quote that implies that it may have just have been a side effect of the DO trying to keep from being sealed away.

Volitional=done by conscious, personal choice; not based on external principles (from wiktionary). The DO did it through a conscious choice.

 

[elec1cele]

So it seems to me they can channel at the bore as long as they have permission to do so.

I agree. But he probably won't give it.

 

And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed.

So it may not have even been intentional(although he certainly liked having it that way).  This certainly says to me that just channeling at the pit will not let him taint the OP.

I bolded the section in the quote that implies that it may have just have been a side effect of the DO trying to keep from being sealed away.

Volitional=done by conscious, personal choice; not based on external principles (from wiktionary). The DO did it through a conscious choice.

Their are 2 options in that sentence one is a volitional act, the other is it was a side effect.  RJ didn't say which one it was, it reads to me like he was pointing out that his previous statement was based on it being a volitional act, and he was pointing out that it may not have been volitional.

[Nightstrike]

OK. I've always thought the DO should have full control of his actions, since he's a God-like being and all that. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Tel Janin]

Doesn't mention that it has to touch him.

 

My earlier comment about needing to touch the DO was based on something LTT said in tGS...

[Nightstrike]

My earlier comment about needing to touch the DO was based on something LTT said in tGS...

Yeah, but the characters are often wrong. Also, why did it have to touch him? Because he was going to object to the interference?

[jemron]

So it seems to me they can channel at the bore as long as they have permission to do so.

I agree. But he probably won't give it.

 

 

 

I guess I assumed that the DO could be distracted (similar to how Sauron was distracted by the battle at the Black Gates while Frodo and Sam made their way to Mount Doom) and that is how Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions were able to channel near the bore.  Maybe it wasn't distraction so much as the element of surprise?

[elec1cele]

Yeah, but the characters are often wrong. Also, why did it have to touch him? Because he was going to object to the interference?

 

When I read that scene I assumed it was to push him back thru the bore so it could be sealed.

[Nightstrike]

Only things outside the Wheel is the Dark One and the Creator. The Bore exists everywhere, but is most easily reached at Shayol Ghul. The Dark One can influence the Pattern through the Bore. He himself is outside the Wheel and the Pattern. If I understand things correctly?