Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[dfchang]

I don't think Cadsuane is going to be wielding Callandor with Rand.

 

Rand was wrong for the crazy way he treated . . . well . . . everybody in this book.

 

But Cadsuane has a lot to answer for as well.  Her way of "teaching" Rand is a bit odd.  I think Tam hit the nail on the head by calling her out as a bully.  And really, she is that.  An emotional one perhaps, but a bully all the same.

 

The LESSONS she has been trying to teach Rand (presumably love, laughter, hope, humility) are good but how in the world does Cadsuane have the credentials to teach that to Rand?

 

In all the books of reading the Wheel of Time . . . has there EVER been ONE hint that Cadsuance can teach ANYONE let alone the Dragon Reborn love and laughter???  I mean, Moiraine I can buy, but Cadsuane?  Huh???  It's always puzzled me.

 

And slapping him and spanking with Air certainly didn't seem like the way to go either.

 

In any case, I think via prophecy and foreshadowing one of the women who will help will be Alivia.  The other one is a bit harder to guess.  I think it will be either Egwene or Nynaeve but it will be someone that Rand will trust to direct the flows.

 

I can't imagine he would let one of his lovers do it in a battle situation.

 

Speaking of lovers, anyone else think that Min sorta got a raw deal?  I mean when Aviendha comes back from the Waste, she's going to get the "laughter, tears, hope, love" Rand.  Min had to deal with Darth Rand for the better part of Gathering Storm, almost got choked to death by him, and got to witness the slow degeneration of the Dragon Reborn into almost Forsaken level evil.

 

Whew!

 

Dennis

[coteaz]

He is supposed to kneel in front of or to the Crystal Throne.  How is THAT going to play out exactly?

 

He doesn't have to kneel, that is a false prophecy spread by Ishamael. He will however bind the nine moons.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

He is supposed to kneel in front of or to the Crystal Throne.  How is THAT going to play out exactly?

 

Corrupted prophecy courtesy of Ishy.  May still happen because the real one says "he shall bind the Nine Moons to serve him."  Anything that gets the Seanchan on his side would serve him.

The Dark One doesn't just want to win.  I get the feeling that the Dark One has "won" many many many times with Rand or one of his incarnations dying.  However, EVENTUALLY as the Wheel turns, he gets sealed again.

 

We don't know the hows or the whys but in circular time, he MUST be sealed in order for the Bore to be opened again . . . however millions or billions of years it takes to turn it around.

 

Thus, from the Dark One's point of view, it must be frustrating beyond endurance to be condemned to repetition again and again and again especially since he appears to remember these turnings unlike mortals.

 

There is something very specific about the Dragon's soul itself and it doesn't just involve balefire disintegrating the Pattern.  Or else why  not just force all the dreadlords and Black Ajah to go around disintegrating cities with balefire??  

 

No, Rand needs to be the one to renounce the Light, commit the atrocities, etc, etc and break the Pattern.  He came THIS close to doing so in tGS but backed off and returned to the Light.

 

He will be tested and tempted again in the end . . . but he will be able to resist.  The price of that resistance will be death for Rand.

 

Unlike some, I don't believe the whole "blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" word games where people justify either Galad or Elayne or the Aiel dying as his "blood."  

 

No, if the Christ like analogy continues, Rand WILL spill his blood and die to save the world.  I conjecture the Dark One will try to turn Rand in an attempt to break the Wheel and achieve everlasting victory.  Failing this, in a fit of pique, he'll kill Rand.  After all, if he can't have final victory, he'll take a feel Ages of chaos before he has to try again.

 

But that's the beauty of this thing.  I think that by trying to change the course of the Wheel and in attempting to achieve FINAL victory, the Dark One must also somehow lay himself open to FINAL defeat as well.

 

It's the ultimate gamble if you think about it.  I think the Dark One goes for it, fails, and then Rand goes for it on his side and perhaps succeeds . . . or succeeds enough that it makes no difference.

 

Dennis

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

So, although there have been times when the Champion of the Light has gone over, the best the DO has ever been able to achieve is a draw.  

 

[coteaz]

According to Rand, he has never served the DO.

[Bob T Dwarf]

According to Rand, he has never served the DO.

 

Rand certainly hasn't.  The Dragon?  Dunno whether the Dragon is the only Champion the Light has.  Whatever the case, Jordan said that the Light's Champion had gone over.

 

All of Rand's protests about it early in the books was just a young man in total denial that such a thing was even possible.

[dflinn]

In Falme, Arthur said something about they have fought with each other and against each other. I took that as meaning they have both been on both sides of the battle during the turning of the wheel.

[coteaz]

Rand is the lights champion, just reborn, and im fairly certain that when it was mentioned it was ishy trying to tempt him to turn, and if RJ said that the lights champion had gone over then there should be a quote somewhere, if not then He has never served the DO in any of his lives.

 

In Falme, Arthur said something about they have fought with each other and against each other. I took that as meaning they have both been on both sides of the battle during the turning of the wheel.

 

Yeah but do you think that the pattern would make them fight each other over the influence of the Dark one? or its just spun out with them fighting each other in an age where the dark one has been forgotten?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand is the lights champion, just reborn, and im fairly certain that when it was mentioned it was ishy trying to tempt him to turn, and if RJ said that the lights champion had gone over then there should be a quote somewhere, if not then He has never served the DO in any of his lives.

 

 

OK, I'll post this for the second time.

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

 

[coteaz]

Nicely played lol, i wasn't certain if that was true or not, thanks for the info  :) What is Ishamael then? is he some kind of dark champion woven in when the lights champion is? because i believe he mentions at one stage that he has fought rand again and again, or was that just him saying it in his persona as the dark one aka bal'zammon?

[kari-no-sugata]

 

I think the two people who will be wielding Callandor with Rand at the final battle will either be Cadsuane and Moraine or Elayne and Avhienda.  It would really have to be either pair.  It couldn't be one from each because of their relationships with Rand.  First group are advisors, second are lovers.  You don't mix that kind of thing up.  I'm going to go with the first group because the second would leave out Min (I know she can't channel but she's of the same relative importance to Rand).

 

I'd bet on Rand wielding Callandor linked with Nynaeve + Alivia. They're both very powerful channelers, which should help in the middle of a battle, and Rand trusts them both, which is critical, and also be willing to into battle with them.

 

It seems to me that Elayne will be largely out of commission for the rest of the series, being pregnant and all. I wouldn't be surprised if she gave birth on the day of the final battle.

[karehiro]

Elayne and Aviendha won't really play an important role except for being pregnant, plus they really haven't been so relevant to Rand's plotline except as romantic interests.  I doubt that will change.  The women that have been foreshadowed to play a large role with Rand in the Last Battle are Moiraine (since he needs her in order to actually win according to Min's viewing), Nynaeve (being the one he works with the best and all they've accomplished already together), Alivia, and possibly Cadsuane (she fulfilled the viewing in teaching Rand his lesson, but she also needs to teach his Asha'man as well, so she still has that role to play).

 

I'm not exactly so sure he will use Callandor in the Last Battle; I'd expect the one who "follows after" (i.e: Narishma) to wield the blade, else I wouldn't know his purpose, or the purpose of that prophecy.  Though if he were to use it, the only combination I can think of that Rand would trust is Nynaeve and Alivia, or Moiraine and Nynaeve; he definitely wouldn't trust giving the control to Cadsuane, that's for sure.

 

As for the matter of the Light's champion turning over to the dark side, it makes you wonder what exactly the Dark One could do in order to actually win, if RJ actually counted the Light's champion fighting for the Dark One as a "draw".  That really doesn't make much sense unless if the Light's forces defeated/resealed the Dark One and the Light's champion at the same time; a conclusion that would make the meaning of the Light's champion redundant.

[ohaitharguiz]

Elayne and Aviendha won't really play an important role except for being pregnant, plus they really haven't been so relevant to Rand's plotline except as romantic interests.  I doubt that will change.  The women that have been foreshadowed to play a large role with Rand in the Last Battle are Moiraine (since he needs her in order to actually win according to Min's viewing), Nynaeve (being the one he works with the best and all they've accomplished already together), Alivia, and possibly Cadsuane (she fulfilled the viewing in teaching Rand his lesson, but she also needs to teach his Asha'man as well, so she still has that role to play).

 

I'm not exactly so sure he will use Callandor in the Last Battle; I'd expect the one who "follows after" (i.e: Narishma) to wield the blade, else I wouldn't know his purpose, or the purpose of that prophecy.  Though if he were to use it, the only combination I can think of that Rand would trust is Nynaeve and Alivia, or Moiraine and Nynaeve; he definitely wouldn't trust giving the control to Cadsuane, that's for sure.

 

Perhaps he will use callandor to balefire cadsuane.  /cross fingers

[coteaz]

Has she taught rand anything? As far as i took what happened he taught himself, a revelation he stumbled upon.

[ohaitharguiz]

Has she taught rand anything? As far as i took what happened he taught himself, a revelation he stumbled upon.

 

I don't think she has taught him anything. Unless you count hate. She helped him with that.

[coteaz]

too true lol.

[karehiro]

Well it was because of Cadsuane that he learned the lesson (even though he did learn it on his own); it's probably a distinction which is meaningless in a viewing.  And what he learned is the exact thing she wanted to impart upon him, so it should be safe to say she's fulfilled her purpose in regards to him.

 

She still needs to teach the Asha'man though.

[coteaz]

but wasn't min's viewing to teach rand AND the asha'man therefore teaching them both the same thing?

[Rowan Sedai]

Cadsuane was the one who came up with the plan, and brought Rand's father to see him.  The disgust Rand felt at almost killing the man he saw as his father made him flee, and kept him from simply destroying the Seanchan immediately.  When he seized the power, and saw everyone so concerned at his sickness, he fled and eventually ended with the lesson she was trying to impart from the beginning.  So, without Cadsuane, Rand would not only have -not- learned to laugh again, he probably would have destroyed the pattern.

[coteaz]

True, but has he learned tears yet?

 

[Ged]

Cadsuane's actions actually led to an overload that was potentially going to destroy the world.

I rather liked Rand's revelations at the end, although breaking the CK was just plain stupid (even if they weren't mentioned in the prophecies).

 

This is actually a rather interesting ending since its hard to say what Rand will be like beyond here. I don't think his hardness earlier was necessarily a bad thing. It was more of a 'I will do what needs to be done and not get too distracted by things that will get in the way of my plans' - coupled with some insanity.

 

In a war to save the world, hard choices would have to be made. Nothing unreasonable about that. Not having your heart bleed everytime someone gets killed is also pretty sensible.

[Rowan Sedai]

I came here with a specific question, and completely forgot what it was with the Cadsuane stuff.

 

Rand notes that nowhere in the prophecies of the dragon is the CK mentioned.  I wonder if the CK is mentioned in the prophecies of the dark one? O.O

[coteaz]

The choedan kal held to much power, he needed to destroy it lest he become enslaved by his power and use it excessively. For instance he was almost going to wipe out pretty much 1/3 of the entire continent to get rid of the Seanchan.

[karehiro]

Cadsuane's actions actually led to an overload that was potentially going to destroy the world.

I rather liked Rand's revelations at the end, although breaking the CK was just plain stupid (even if they weren't mentioned in the prophecies).

 

This is actually a rather interesting ending since its hard to say what Rand will be like beyond here. I don't think his hardness earlier was necessarily a bad thing. It was more of a 'I will do what needs to be done and not get too distracted by things that will get in the way of my plans' - coupled with some insanity.

 

In a war to save the world, hard choices would have to be made. Nothing unreasonable about that. Not having your heart bleed everytime someone gets killed is also pretty sensible.

 

I couldn't agree more, that's why I considered the parts where Nynaeve considered his viewpoints and saw the merits of his outlook as a highlight.  It distinguished itself from the usual reflexive criticism of Rand being a "woolhead" if only he did what they wanted him to do, and gave a dose of much needed realism and pragmatism to the whole deal.

 

As for what Rand will end up being from here on out, I expect him to be similar to the Artur Hawkwing called by the Horn in Falme (not the raving paranoid lunatic on his deathbed), or Rhuarc; someone who can make the hard decisions and choices as well being a natural leader people want to follow rather than just fear, but someone who hasn't thrown away his humanity in the process and can still enjoy life.  He definitely won't be cracking jokes like Mat or be a pushover though.  I'm very much looking forward to seeing how he's like, and especially see his interactions with people like Min, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, and his followers/allies.

 

True, but has he learned tears yet?

 

I think the purpose was for him to regain his humanity and see the importance in living for something.  Once that happens, laughter can come as well as tears.

 

I came here with a specific question, and completely forgot what it was with the Cadsuane stuff.

 

Rand notes that nowhere in the prophecies of the dragon is the CK mentioned.  I wonder if the CK is mentioned in the prophecies of the dark one? O.O

 

For all we know, it could even be mentioned in some lost passage of the Karaetheon Cycle; no one has the complete version after all.

 

It's a bit odd it isn't in any prophecy that we know of, considering the Choedan Kal has done more to change the world so far than Callandor.

[Rowan Sedai]

It's a bit odd it isn't in any prophecy that we know of, considering the Choedan Kal has done more to change the world so far than Callandor.

[coteaz]

Yeah, but its too much power, its been commented on numerous times, and there is a lot more to callandor than we yet know.