Olver

[jo]

Okay I read somewhere that RJ said that Olver is NOT Gaidal. But Olver is:

 

1) Great with horses. And so is Gaidal.

2) Learning the "art of war".

3) Mucho ugly. And so is Gaidal-- and in the same ways. Short, big ears, big mouth, etc.

 

I can't see Charlz Guybon as Gaidal Cain...

And I can't see RJ lying.

 

Who do you think Gaidal Cain is?

[Zardi]

He's just some baby right now, or possibly not even born yet, depending on when bodies acquire a soul in Randland (at conception vs. at birth, for instance). Not that much time has passed in the world outside of Tel'aran'rhiod since Cain was spun out again.

[TheDiceAgain...]

If you go by when he disappears from TAR, he's a newborn or at least a very young child at this point. We probably haven't even met him yet.

 

It does seem odd that the Wheel would spin out one of the Heroes at such a time when he will most certainly not be able to fight in Tarmon Gaidon. At the same time, now that Brigitte is in the world of the flesh, regardless of how she got there, he would have to be spun out as he is always either much older or much younger than she is. Could the Wheel be doing a sort of reactionary metaphysical maintenance it this point?

 

*Dice shakes his head to clear the cobwebs*

 

Sorry, wildly speculating again...

[jo]

I always assumed it was because of the DO that Cain got spun out too late for TG.

[Zardi]

Why do you say that? Maybe you're right and I just missed the evidence.

 

At this point, though, I don't think one hero could make much difference in TG, not with the Dragon still roaming around. :? Perhaps something will happen in 20 years that Gaidal Cain was spun out to deal with.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Well, we know(or rather we think, since it hasn't happened yet) that Mat will use the Horn at TG to call the Heroes to fight for the Dragon and the Light. I always sort of assumed that it would be the whole lot of them, not just the ones that happened to be available at the time. If he's been spun out in real life, then he can't answer the call of the Horn this time.

 

As to what one Hero might matter with the Dragon Reborn stalking the world; well unless some of the of the body switching that has been theorized happens, Rand is going to go to the Last Battle nearly blind and horribly crippled. I'm thinking he's going to need all the help he can get.

[Zardi]

It's channeling that Rand's having problems with now. How would Gaidal be able to help with that?

 

No offense, but where do people get this "nearly blind" business? Rand's eye injury, as far as any of us knows, was caused by the bright light of Semi's fireball. That sort of injury is usually reversible in the real world. I looked it up :P And it's reversible in Randland, too, because Mat's lightening-induced version cleared up on its own.

[ono-neko]

If you go by when he disappears from TAR, he's a newborn or at least a very young child at this point. We probably haven't even met him yet.

 

It does seem odd that the Wheel would spin out one of the Heroes at such a time when he will most certainly not be able to fight in Tarmon Gaidon. At the same time, now that Brigitte is in the world of the flesh, regardless of how she got there, he would have to be spun out as he is always either much older or much younger than she is. Could the Wheel be doing a sort of reactionary metaphysical maintenance it this point?

 

*Dice shakes his head to clear the cobwebs*

 

Sorry, wildly speculating again...

 

Even after TG, there will still be wars fights among the "loose alliance". Especially WT, Seanchan, Borderland, Caemlynn, etc... They will want to know who gets what out of the winning, especially since Seanchan wants to rule all of Randland. I am sure a hero would be needed on every sides, whatver purpose the Wheel has for the hero or the fate of Randland. Maybe that's where Gaidal will be useful, in the aftermath of TG, which of course, we probably won't see since it may be 15+ years after TG to wait until Gaidal mature enough to fight in a war :)

[TheDiceAgain...]

We get the "nearly blind" piece from two places where the imagery is too similar to be coincidental:

 

Perrin's WolF Dream where he sees Rand wearing rags with a cloth over his eyes and using a staff to walk

 

and

 

The Fisher figurine in Moridin's game that seems nearly identical to the image in Perrin's dream given its description.

[Zardi]

A bandage says, to me, that it's an injury that can be healed. That's why we use bandages: to allow parts of the body to heal. Could it be a permanent injury? Sure. But that isn't necessarily the case.

[TheDiceAgain...]

One last one before I go...

 

I can't quote the line, but I'm pretty sure that Nyneave delves him after he is injured by Semi and comments that "There's something wrong with your eyes..." that she's not sure she wants to try and heal, at least at the moment.

 

If Nyneave is afraid to try healing it, I take that as an inference that it's quite a bit more than just being blinded momentarily by a bright flash.

 

(But it's not the Saa, just to head off us going down that path again, for the fifth time... :) )

 

Okay, now I gotta go...

[Zardi]

I know it's not saa. :P

 

But anyway, I'm not saying that it's "momentary" blindness. It obviously lasted more than a moment, and wasn't total blindness anyway. I just said that it may be temporary, as it can be in the modern world, and as it was for Mat.

 

Nynaeve not knowing how to heal his eyes doesn't surprise me. How many eye injuries could she possibly have had the chance to heal back in Emond's Field, especially eye injuries caused by a fireball exploding at arm's length from one's face? We aren't talking about a simple black eye here.

[ono-neko]

If Nyneave is afraid to try healing it, I take that as an inference that it's quite a bit more than just being blinded momentarily by a bright flash.

 

Just because she is afraid to try, doesn't means anything at all. The reason she is afraid is because she doesn't really know how to heal eyes as she said that she is afraid she might cause more harm than good to Rand. So, we still don't know whether it will be permanent or temporary.

 

A somewhat good analogy would be a dentist wouldn't try to perform surgery on a person who has heart problem, because the dentist isn't trained to do that. The dentist may probably not even know how severe the heart problem.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Maybe you're both right and I'm barking up the wrong tree here, but it just seems too coincidental to me that we have this very specific imagery connecting Rand and a "visual imaparement" if not blindness for it not to mean something of real consequence.

 

Then again, I will readily admit that in my own mind I connect Rand very strongly to the Arthurian figure of the Fisher King whose health was tied to the land and who is often depicted as a blind beggar with a walking staff. So maybe it's just me inserting my own prejudices.

[Zardi]

Maybe something significant happens while he still can't see properly? I mean, I doubt he'd be able to channel in this condition, since where ever he's channeling is going to look quite blurry.

 

However...if the body switching theories are correct, then I think you're the one who's right here, Dice. There'd be no reason for Rand's injury to be temporary if he's going to get a new body anyway.

[ono-neko]

Hehehe... we are getting off topic here, but I guess it couldn't be helped.

 

TheDiceAgain, I wouldn't say you are wrong. There simply isn't enough information to say wether Rand's eye injury is permanent or not. I, at least, would try to accept both possibility.

 

But since I enjoy the Greek-style of tragic heroes, I am leaning toward blind perm along with his other perm wounds. Personally, I don't want him to switch body. I'd rather he died, or if alive, live with his current body for the rest of his life. I just prefer tragic ending rather than "happily ever after". This isn't Cinderella story after all :D

[jo]

I know! I totally want Rand to pull an Alexander the Great. You know... Amazingly full active life but dies young. Three women weeping for him... All that! I think that Alexander only had two wives, but still.

[merlinspetrock]

As to who Gaidal Cain is, I really dont care. I dont think it will play any part in the rest of this story. Its not necessary for him to pop up in the story.

 

As to Olver, my thoughts have always drifted to him being next in line to lead the Band. Moiranne mentions to Mat in FoH about his choice of the red hand, and says that they were around a while and led by different commanders over the years. I think RJ is setting Olver up with some first class training. Thats why it is always mentioned that the Red Arms are teachin him, and Thomm, and others.

[jo]

Gaidal Cain's cool, dude! I want to know what happens to him.

[merlinspetrock]

He may be cool. I just dont think he is necessary to the story. Maybe what comes after sure, and there is no reason Birgitte and him dont fall in love 20 years from now. Im just saying he isnt important to the story other than being a hero of the horn. Olver is much more a mystery in the current story. Who knows maybe he will kill some Trollocs from his crib, I guess that could be considered helping.

[jo]

or join the Younglings...

[shad]

Y'all are forgeting something when your saying Gaidal was spun out of TAR to late, theres been many many times where the characters talk about how differently time works there, for all we know the hero doesn't necessarily have to be in that person from birth,I know that sounds wacky but hey thats me, and Gaidal gets spun out of TAR just around the same time that Mat finds Olver. Also, RJ just puts too much into his writing for him to include something about Gaidal being spun out and then not make any use of it later in the series, he doesn't put in details and actions just for the hell of it he always has a purpose. There's also a good bit about Olver that points towards him being Gaidal imo, he's learning the sword and military training, he's ugly, he likes leering at women(which we know Brigitte likes men to do to her). Also we know that he's been tied to Brigitte with him being younger than her or will be in the future from Min's viewing:

 

"Strangly, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she[brigitte], and others were connected to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man."

Winters Heart, A Lily in Winter

 

~shad

[Zardi]

There may be a time discrepancy between the real world and TAR, but you have to look at the real world (that is, main Randland) timeline between when the girls last see Gaidal in TAR, up until the end of KoD. It's been...what 2 years at the most? In order for Gaidal reborn to be Olver's age, the girls would have to have stepped back in time in TAR in order to have seen Gaidal there. Time does move differently in TAR...meaning it goes faster or slower. We don't know if stepping back in time at least 7 years is possible.

 

As for a new soul entering a child's body years after birth...why? What happened to the old soul, then?

 

And as for Min's viewing, she sees Birgitte tied to a man much younger than her, not a boy. If she had been tied to Olver, mightn't Min have seen a boy?

 

Personally, I think this thing with Gaidal's rebirth may be forshadowing Birgitte's death. Since they always end up meeting and falling in love, maybe she will die so that when she is eventually reborn, she and Gaidal will be a more compatible age. I know Min's viewing suggests that they've had various age differences between them before, but even Birgitte was worried about the difference this time around.

[samurai weasel]

RJ has already ended the argument :roll: by saying

 

 

 

 

"OLVER IS NOT GAIDAL CAIN"

 

 

 

so why dont we just drop the topic :evil: :x

 

please!!!!!!! :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

[shad]

Link? ^^