The Dark One, Travelling and The Bore.

[Lambada]

Hello,

 

[TGS free discussion]

 

Let me start by saying i'm new and I've done a search with some key words such as those in the title, but nothing showed up, so here's a theory that i've been mulling over recently.

 

First let's consider the Dark One's prison. It is known that the dark ones prison must be outside of the pattern, else he could touch it. Secondly it is also known that the place where the bore can be most easily felt is where the pattern is thin. Finally we also know that The Bore is often described as a hole in the Pattern.

 

Now lets consider all we know of Travelling. Firstly we know that men and women Travel by different methods. Women travel by making a similarity in the pattern - making the pattern of where they are currently similar enough to that of where they want to be. We know that men usually describe it as a wormhole thing - they make a hole in the pattern and connect it with the other place. It has also been claimed by the Forsaken that any woman who tries the male method of travelling will end up being sucked outside the pattern.

 

And now the facts have been established, lets get to my theory.

To me at least The Bore seems like it was made with a male travelling weave - both are described in very similar terms, but we know that it was a woman who drilled The Bore. This implies that what the Forsaken said was true - a woman trying the male weave will end up making a hole in the pattern and will be sucked through. Now this hole ends up outside the pattern - where the Dark Ones prison is.

 

Lanfear thought she detected a new energy source through this thinness which was therefore outside the pattern. Given that she wanted to get to something outside the pattern what weave is she likely to have used? Perhaps the one weave that we know will take a woman outside the pattern - the male Travelling weave done with Saidar.

 

This would imply then that The Bore is simply a male Travelling weave made with saidar. We must thus conclude that any woman who tries to do the male Travelling weave will end up with The Dark One. The fear when Egwene suggested this method of Travelling to Moghedien suggests this as well - all of the Forsaken fear the DO.

 

Ok, so now that the past is dealt with I can detail my theory on the future.

 

This all leads, I believe to the case that sealing The Bore will 'simply' be a case of attempting to unweave the Saidar weave that comprises The Bore. This could be done by either getting the weave unpicked (which would leave no trace), or using some joint combination to make the gateway complete i.e. linking it with another place in The Pattern then letting the weave dissipate.

 

On a side note, this raises the interesting notion that when men Travel they are actually boring a hole through the Dark Ones prison.

 

I'll freely admit that the future part seems iffy - i'm still trying to develop that more, but I am confident that the details of the past are fairly accurate.

 

Comments?

[Nightstrike]

First let's consider the Dark One's prison. It is known that the dark ones prison must be outside of the pattern, else he could touch it. Secondly it is also known that the place where the bore can be most easily felt is where the pattern is thin. Finally we also know that The Bore is often described as a hole in the Pattern.

The Bore exists everywhere, but it can be reached most easily at Shayol Ghul. The Dark One could touch the Pattern once the Bore was drilled. Then it was patched up with the seals. They weakened gradually over time. It seems he can now start to really influence the Pattern again. Spoiling food, and so on.

 

 

To me at least The Bore seems like it was made with a male travelling weave - both are described in very similar terms, but we know that it was a woman who drilled The Bore. This implies that what the Forsaken said was true - a woman trying the male weave will end up making a hole in the pattern and will be sucked through. Now this hole ends up outside the pattern - where the Dark Ones prison is.

I think they were a team of channelers drilling the Bore. Beidomon and Lanfear were two of them.

 

 

 

 

[Lambada]

First let's consider the Dark One's prison. It is known that the dark ones prison must be outside of the pattern, else he could touch it. Secondly it is also known that the place where the bore can be most easily felt is where the pattern is thin. Finally we also know that The Bore is often described as a hole in the Pattern.

The Bore exists everywhere, but it can be reached most easily at Shayol Ghul. The Dark One could touch the Pattern once the Bore was drilled. Then it was patched up with the seals. They weakened gradually over time. It seems he can now start to really influence the Pattern again. Spoiling food, and so on.

 

I'm well aware he can touch the pattern now, but when the Prison was whole and unhindered he was unable to touch the pattern - hence why there was such an idyllic society.

As for The Bore existing everywhere - indeed it does, but I believe that's more an effect of the half-formed gateway weave I go on to detail.

 

To me at least The Bore seems like it was made with a male travelling weave - both are described in very similar terms, but we know that it was a woman who drilled The Bore. This implies that what the Forsaken said was true - a woman trying the male weave will end up making a hole in the pattern and will be sucked through. Now this hole ends up outside the pattern - where the Dark Ones prison is.

I think they were a team of channelers drilling the Bore. Beidomon and Lanfear were two of them.

Hmmm... perhaps any weave involving saidar that tries to bore a hole in the pattern produces the same result? i.e. a half-formed hole into the DO's prison.

 

Now that I think about it, the joint weave may well explain exactly why The Bore weave has not collapsed like all gateways that aren't constantly sustained. The DO would be trying to hold it open, but perhaps saidin is doing something similar to what Asmo did to Avienda's gateway to Seanchan. i.e. with both the DO and saidin maintaining the bore then the Bore is actually able to stay stable with no actual channelling.

 

Even more so when you consider that it is known that The Bore was expanding (Strike at Shayol Ghul). It started off as I described but enough time has passed that the Bore has grown to the entire world now - larger than the patch could hold hence the weakening. Surely the DO and saidin together could explain this growing of the hole.

[Mr Ares]

[TGS free discussion]

You don't actually have to tell us that, as TGS spoilers aren't permitted here.

Comments?

So...Lanfear drilled a hole in the Pattern, was sucked out...how did she get back? Rope?

[Khazul]

Hello,

 

[TGS free discussion]

 

Let me start by saying i'm new and I've done a search with some key words such as those in the title, but nothing showed up, so here's a theory that i've been mulling over recently.

 

First let's consider the Dark One's prison. It is known that the dark ones prison must be outside of the pattern, else he could touch it. Secondly it is also known that the place where the bore can be most easily felt is where the pattern is thin. Finally we also know that The Bore is often described as a hole in the Pattern.

 

Now lets consider all we know of Travelling. Firstly we know that men and women Travel by different methods. Women travel by making a similarity in the pattern - making the pattern of where they are currently similar enough to that of where they want to be. We know that men usually describe it as a wormhole thing - they make a hole in the pattern and connect it with the other place. It has also been claimed by the Forsaken that any woman who tries the male method of travelling will end up being sucked outside the pattern.

 

And now the facts have been established, lets get to my theory.

To me at least The Bore seems like it was made with a male travelling weave - both are described in very similar terms, but we know that it was a woman who drilled The Bore. This implies that what the Forsaken said was true - a woman trying the male weave will end up making a hole in the pattern and will be sucked through. Now this hole ends up outside the pattern - where the Dark Ones prison is.

 

Lanfear thought she detected a new energy source through this thinness which was therefore outside the pattern. Given that she wanted to get to something outside the pattern what weave is she likely to have used? Perhaps the one weave that we know will take a woman outside the pattern - the male Travelling weave done with Saidar.

 

This would imply then that The Bore is simply a male Travelling weave made with saidar. We must thus conclude that any woman who tries to do the male Travelling weave will end up with The Dark One. The fear when Egwene suggested this method of Travelling to Moghedien suggests this as well - all of the Forsaken fear the DO.

 

Ok, so now that the past is dealt with I can detail my theory on the future.

 

This all leads, I believe to the case that sealing The Bore will 'simply' be a case of attempting to unweave the Saidar weave that comprises The Bore. This could be done by either getting the weave unpicked (which would leave no trace), or using some joint combination to make the gateway complete i.e. linking it with another place in The Pattern then letting the weave dissipate.

 

On a side note, this raises the interesting notion that when men Travel they are actually boring a hole through the Dark Ones prison.

 

I'll freely admit that the future part seems iffy - i'm still trying to develop that more, but I am confident that the details of the past are fairly accurate.

 

Comments?

 

I like this train of thought. If it is a weave of saidar, then perhaps it would give Aviendha a purpose in the series... being that she can actually

unravel a weave/gateway, as we have seen. Idle speculation of course, but it would certainly be interesting to see that

[Lambada]

[TGS free discussion]

You don't actually have to tell us that, as TGS spoilers aren't permitted here.

Ah ok, I just like to make it clear though - My past experience of anticipated book releases has left me extremely spoiled and i'm now super careful as it were.

 

Comments?

So...Lanfear drilled a hole in the Pattern, was sucked out...how did she get back? Rope?

I'm sure the Dark One would have been obliging enough to throw her back into the Pattern - after all even he knew he needed dedicated followers to do his bidding, what better way to get one than one who so nicely popped into your home and was at your complete mercy? Once he ensured her 'loyalty' he would have thrown her back to do his bidding.

[mb]

It seems doubtful that the Bore was made by Traveling (or Skimming) since Gateways (in general) are not permanent (the Bore was/is permanent).

Blossoms of Fire (or it repeated) might be a more probable weave.

 

[Lambada]

It seems doubtful that the Bore was made by Traveling (or Skimming) since Gateways (in general) are not permanent (the Bore was/is permanent).

Blossoms of Fire (or it repeated) might be a more probable weave.

 

 

The bore is not only permanent, but is growing.

The only reasons gateways aren't permanent is that they are not self sustaining - tying off the weave causes it to (eventually) collapse. However, maintaining the flow causes it to be maintained, as does blocking the closure with another weave (i.e. how Rand and Asmo maintained Aviendahs weave during Rand and Aviendah's night in Seanchan.) I think it's a perfectly reasonable assumption that the True Power can also duplicate these effects - as I speculated back in my original post the Dark One could easily have the power to maintain the weave or stop it from closing. In fact, now that I think about it, the patch placed by LTT + companions may well also have helped in preventing the full closure.

As I have also speculated, the fact the Bore has grown may be more evidence that the Dark One is using his power to keep the weave open.

[crazyfool]

I'm sure the Dark One would have been obliging enough to throw her back into the Pattern - after all even he knew he needed dedicated followers to do his bidding, what better way to get one than one who so nicely popped into your home and was at your complete mercy? Once he ensured her 'loyalty' he would have thrown her back to do his bidding.

 

That just reminded me in one of the earlier books Lanfear tried to convince Rand to join the shadow. When she talked about going to Shayol Ghul and basking in the DO presence she got all short breathed from remembering from like the awesomeness of it. Imagine what it would be like actually inside his prison like; ecstacy x 10000

[Mr Ares]

Once he ensured her 'loyalty'.

How?

 

When she talked about going to Shayol Ghul and basking in the DO presence she got all short breathed from remembering from like the awesomeness of it. Imagine what it would be like actually inside his prison like; ecstacy x 10000

I'm not sure it would be survivable, given what we see when Demandred is there. Ecstasy x 1,000? Too much, perhaps.

[Lambada]

Once he ensured her 'loyalty'.

How?

Compulsiion? General scariness? Giving her the most pleasure she's ever experienced? Promising her immortality if she helped him? Plenty of ways for the Dark One to mess with her mind to get some kind of loyalty

 

When she talked about going to Shayol Ghul and basking in the DO presence she got all short breathed from remembering from like the awesomeness of it. Imagine what it would be like actually inside his prison like; ecstacy x 10000

I'm not sure it would be survivable, given what we see when Demandred is there. Ecstasy x 1,000? Too much, perhaps.

Hmmm... you may have a point there with too much pleasure. But whatever happened to her, she is in awe and loved it (or believed the lies). And don't forget we've only seen the prison a couple of times. Once displeased, once where we just get manical laughter from the DO, and a couple where it is simple order giving. The Forsaken did survive being sealed up for a few thousand years with the DO, and with those near the surface that just drove them more insane and towards the Shadow. I dare say it would be survivable, if only as the DO wished it so.

Remember, if one couldn't take it and died the DO would just bring them back seeing as he is Lord of the Dead.

[Mr Ares]

Compulsiion?

Without frying her brain?

 

And don't forget we've only seen the prison a couple of times.

No. Never.

and with those near the surface that just drove them more insane and towards the Shadow.

No,it made them old. Ishy was only partially caught.

[Lambada]

Compulsiion?

Without frying her brain?

 

And don't forget we've only seen the prison a couple of times.

No. Never.

and with those near the surface that just drove them more insane and towards the Shadow.

No,it made them old. Ishy was only partially caught.

 

The right compulsion in the right palce. I dare say that if compulsion was used then the DO would have fine enough control to know the limits. Besides, frying the brain is usually through deliberate over-use of negligence (such as that Aes Sedai and Warder that were tortured. Not enough attention was paid as such they died.

 

Not quite sure what you mean by no, never. *shrugs*

 

Ah, I forgot age was also caused for those near the surface, but that doesn't negate the fact that it certanly gave the DO time to work on them.

[Mr Ares]

I dare say that if compulsion was used then the DO would have fine enough control to know the limits.

He hasn't exactly shown that sort of subtlety. Some of the stuff He has done is worldwide, remember.

(such as that Aes Sedai and Warder that were tortured.

That wasn't compulsion. Semi just stimulated Cabriana's pain centres, and her Warder's pleasure (only he died due to lack of attention. She got everything she wanted out of Cabriana).

 

Not quite sure what you mean by no, never.

We've never seen inside the prison/outside the pattern.

[Lambada]

I dare say that if compulsion was used then the DO would have fine enough control to know the limits.

He hasn't exactly shown that sort of subtlety. Some of the stuff He has done is worldwide, remember.

Subtle doesn't mean on a small geographic scale. Subtle means things that will go unnoticed at first - such as his halting of the seasons. The way he froze that was subtle as no one noticed at first. However, the way the super-girls unfroze the seasons was not subtle - it caused huge weaves of saidar and saidin calling the attention of every channeler, and caused severe flipping of the weather such as quick rainstorms which passed extremely quickly which non-channelers such as Mat noted.

 

(such as that Aes Sedai and Warder that were tortured.

That wasn't compulsion. Semi just stimulated Cabriana's pain centres, and her Warder's pleasure (only he died due to lack of attention. She got everything she wanted out of Cabriana).

She stimulated the pain centres to force Cabriana to give enough information to infiltrate the SAS. I'd say that is certainly one application of compulsion. We have seen another with one Aes Sedai using it on another whilst under Aiel supervision (Forgotten the names i'm afraid.). Both weaves produced the same end - that of forcing the reveal of information. I think it's a case where there are several different weaves all of which can be used as Compulsion. After all, it has been mentioned that wilders usually have pre-learned weaves of two kinds: either listening, of compelling. Each compelling weave was different, but all contained the essence of what compulsion is - forcing someone to say / do something they normally wouldn't.

 

Not quite sure what you mean by no, never.

We've never seen inside the prison/outside the pattern.

We haven't seen the inside of the prison (unless I extend my theory so that Skimming is going through the prison / outside the pattern - but I think there's a different answer about where Skimming happens), but I'd certainly say that Shayol Ghul's volcano like thing is akin to seeing the bars on the prison / the walls that compose the prison.

[Mr Ares]

I'd say that is certainly one application of compulsion.

You'd be wrong. It isn't.

[Lambada]

I'd say that is certainly one application of compulsion.

You'd be wrong. It isn't.

In what way is it not an application of compulsion?

Yes, the exact method may be different, but in the end the person is still compelled to give the information by the One Power.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

That, by definition, is torture, causing someone to give information by use or threats of pain and suffering. Compulsion is manipulating someones mind to the point where they are convinced they want to give you the information, same as they want to do whatever it is you want them to do. There is a rather large difference, Lambada.

 

BTW, is that name a reference to the LAMBADA-class imperial space ship from Star Wars? If so, its quite clever. I'm quite the Star Wars fan myself.

[Lambada]

That, by definition, is torture, causing someone to give information by use or threats of pain and suffering. Compulsion is manipulating someones mind to the point where they are convinced they want to give you the information, same as they want to do whatever it is you want them to do. There is a rather large difference, Lambada.

I would class this particular case as Compulsion as it is a direct manipulation of someones mental state - there is no physical thing causing the sensation of pain. As my rule of thumb (here and in the real world) anything caused by threats is compulsion, while anything that uses physical means to induce a particular state is torture. I don't class OP as physical, therefore I class this as a case of compulsion. Perhaps not as refined as some versions we have seen, but crude enough to do the job.

 

BTW, is that name a reference to the LAMBADA-class imperial space ship from Star Wars? If so, its quite clever. I'm quite the Star Wars fan myself.

And i'm afraid not. Can't stand Star Wars personally *shrugs* just not my thing.

[Mr Ares]

In what way is it not an application of compulsion?

In the way that it works completely differently.

[Lambada]

In what way is it not an application of compulsion?

In the way that it works completely differently.

As I have already stated the method is irrelevant. The end result is what matters.

For example both a jet-engine aircraft and gliders are classed as flying machines because they both give the same result despite working in different ways. Similarly you wouldn't say that the echo-location of bats isn't a form of seeing just because they don't use light and retinas.

 

Likewise two different weaves that have the same effect (in this case inducing someone to tell / do something) are both compulsion. We've already had this alluded to with the Wise-Ones forming some weaves differently than the Aes Sedai. Yes one weave (or type of flying machine) may be better to producing the effect (i.e. making it seem like a voluntary decision) but that doesn't change the fact that both weaves are two versions of the same thing.

[Blackhoof]

Semirhage uses the power to torture Cabriana to get info. It is not exactly compulsion; she stimulates cabrianas pain senses to get information. Perhaps this means that Semirhage is not that good at compulsion; because if she was, then she could just compell the info out of people. Either that or she just likes torture too much to do it the easy way. Or it could be a mix of both.

[Lambada]

I lean towards the "likes it too much to do the easy version of compulsion" stance. We know she likes causing pain, and despite that she also probably enjoyed the challenge of trying to control a cruder method. (I know I would >:D)

[crazyfool]

 

As I have already stated the method is irrelevant. The end result is what matters.

 

Yes but the end result between compulsion and inducing pain receptors can be very different. Of course in both ways you can get information but with compulsion the subject is often times left a mindless cohort and with the pain thing the subject can retain there wits and yet be terrified of the user and be of further use.

 

The point is they are different weaves so inducing pain in someone is not compulsion. Its like saying torturing someone for information and tricking them into giving you information are the same thing.

[Lambada]

Yes but the end result between compulsion and inducing pain receptors can be very different. Of course in both ways you can get information but with compulsion the subject is often times left a mindless cohort and with the pain thing the subject can retain there wits and yet be terrified of the user and be of further use.

 

The point is they are different weaves so inducing pain in someone is not compulsion. Its like saying torturing someone for information and tricking them into giving you information are the same thing.

 

The result can be different, but that depends on the person doing the pain induction, not on the weave itself. The subject is only left mindless either through being insufficiently skilled or through a deliberate choice. Yes, the Sharan royalty have been turned to mindless slaves, but the sister Verin compelled wasn't - with that particular version of compulsion the "reason to obey had to come from within the person" (slightly paraphrased).

 

And I addressed in my last post about how two different versions of x doesn't stop both being x (whether x are compulsion weaves, flying machines or methods of torture)