What is the real assignment for Halima in the Rebel camp?

[yellie1107]

Am I the only one who thinks that Halima has done nothing useful for the DO?

 

I thought her assignment was to screw up as much stuff as possible, however, working through Delana has yielded barely anything. She has no real control over anything and if anything her actions brought the rebels closer together.

 

I would understand if she killed someone like Suian, which would cripple Egwene and create further discord or something along those lines.

[dholm]

What exactly says that she accomplished what she came for? She was forced to leave, after all.

[Aagaard]

do you mean aside from placing herself close to the leaders of a rebellion that keeps the good guys fighting eachother instead of the darkfriends, giving eggy the headaches (probably messing with her dreams) and freeing Moghedien, who was one of the biggest resources for the light, by giving light-aes sedai the same tools as the darkside- aes sedai.

 

but aside from that.... 

[Kadere]

Well she got, or at least helped get, the rebels to declare war on Elaida. She freed Moghedien and returned her to Moridin. She stopped Egwene from having useful dreams. She murdered servents and Aes Sedai causing fear and dissension among the rebels. She pitted Lelaine and Romanada against each other so much  that it fractured the Hall, and now Lelaine appears to have plans on usurping Egwene's rank. She made the rebel Aes Sedai afraid of Rand and the Asha'man, though that failed in the end, at least with respect to the Asha'man.

 

If Egwene hadn't been so strong she really could have done more damage, but as is she's probably caused some serious problems for the next book. Now the rebels know there's a black ajah and that it's among them. But we can't know what her full plan was, since she was discovered. 

[dwn]

Am I the only one who thinks that Halima has done nothing useful for the DO?

 

I thought her assignment was to screw up as much stuff as possible, however, working through Delana has yielded barely anything. She has no real control over anything and if anything her actions brought the rebels closer together.

 

Delana has been switching between Salidar factions to support whichever was most likely to keep the Tower split ongoing, and she gets noticeably upset (even sick) when Egwene does something that moves towards resolving the conflict (Travelling to Tar Valon, sanctioning negotiations).

 

Halima has been very selective about killing: Delana kept pressing to have Logain killed (Logain could sense Halima's channeling); Egwene's two maids were spies for Romanda and Lelaine; Anaiya and Kairen threatened Halima's cover story.

 

-- dwn

 

[yellie1107]

do you mean aside from placing herself close to the leaders of a rebellion that keeps the good guys fighting eachother instead of the darkfriends, giving eggy the headaches (probably messing with her dreams) and freeing Moghedien, who was one of the biggest resources for the light, by giving light-aes sedai the same tools as the darkside- aes sedai.

 

but aside from that.... 

 

She placed herself close to the leaders of a rebellion through Delana, who EVERYONE knows plays all sides and noone trusts?

 

Frees Moghedien... I feel that was a byproduct and this didn't hurt the rebels at all. Egwene, Elayne and Ny in my opinion learned as much as Moghedien would allow them to learn. They couldnt safely bring her to justice, without implicating themselves. So if anything Halima has took Moghedien off their hands and freed them from any possible discovery.

 

She gives Egwene headaches, oh wow... Egwene could not do anything because her headaches were so bad? Egwene was still able to work and have her Dreams.

 

By killing people and Aes Sedai at the Rebel camp she actually helped people turn attention to possible Black Ajah within the camp.

 

Was she the driving force behind War on Elaida order? I dont think so. If anything this EVIL plot of hers helped Egwene take the Hall into her hand.

 

I still don't see anything significant done by Halima in her stay at the Rebel camp.

[Ahaz Flagg]

 

She placed herself close to the leaders of a rebellion through Delana, who EVERYONE knows plays all sides and noone trusts?

 

Frees Moghedien... I feel that was a byproduct and this didn't hurt the rebels at all. Egwene, Elayne and Ny in my opinion learned as much as Moghedien would allow them to learn. They couldnt safely bring her to justice, without implicating themselves. So if anything Halima has took Moghedien off their hands and freed them from any possible discovery. 

 

If it was so small of a thing why did Egwene get so upest?

 

She gives Egwene headaches, oh wow... Egwene could not do anything because her headaches were so bad? Egwene was still able to work and have her Dreams.

 

Incorrect, while Halima was playing her games, Egwene had mostly dark and disturbing dreams.  Also the headache certianly did one very important thing, they allowed her to have Egwenes ear, certianly not a small thing.

 

By killing people and Aes Sedai at the Rebel camp she actually helped people turn attention to possible Black Ajah within the camp. 

 

Oh really?  that was why they were looking for a man that can channel.

 

Was she the driving force behind War on Elaida order? I dont think so. If anything this EVIL plot of hers helped Egwene take the Hall into her hand. She played her part in it for sure.

 

I still don't see anything significant done by Halima in her stay at the Rebel camp.

 

You should go back and reread the series, you missed or forgot alot.

[JenniferL]

Halima'gar's main goal seems to be forment discord, not just between the rebels and the Tower, but amongst the rebels themselves. She manipulates the various factions to keep them at each other's throats, which is important given the DO's order to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule". It is to the Shadow's advantage to have the Aes Sedai, who have been the their most stalwart opposition, in disarray and unable to ally themselves with Rand.  Additionally, she does "something" to prevent Egwene from Dreaming. She can still access T'A'R, but her prophetic Dreams disappear, which cuts the Light off from an important source of information. 

[Luckers]

Mmm, indeed, and it's also possible she was using lower level compulsion to guide Egwene--say in her complete 180 and subsequent rock solid adherence to maintaining the Oaths. Note: the dreams Egwene does have are from running from something she can't see, which is exactly the same description Morgase gave of her dreams whilst she was under compulsion.

 

Kath is right though, Aran'gar was blocking Egwene's prophetic dreams.

[JenniferL]

Yeah, I'm not one hundred percent convinced that Compulsion is involved there. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Egwene realized Siuan was right and the Oaths are key to the identity of the Aes Sedai. She sees how the other sisters treat her, because she hasn't done the normal Aes Sedai milestones. She might decide that the Oaths are key to having the Aes Sedai accept her as truly Amyrlin. If it is Compulsion, it's a very subtle form of it and we've seen no other evidence that Halima'gar is capable of that level of skill. We've seen nothing saying she isn't though.

[Luckers]

I'm not certain of it either--the problem is the suddeness and degree of the one-eighty. She goes from being quite against the oaths, and even whilst she's listening to Siuan she's doubtful, and then suddenly she's threatening Nynaeve for even questioning their relevance. And in every comment or thought she's had about them since then there has been such rock-solid belief in their necessity.

 

If it isn't compulsion, I still don't think Egwene sees it as the basis of her being accepted as Amyrlin. She's certain in her bones she's Amyrlin--I'd say it more comes out of the old 'Egwene throwing herself whole-heartedly into a thing'. Like when she started dressing as an Aiel when amongst the Aiel, or when she unbraided her hair when she decided to be Aes Sedai and saw Moiraine didn't braid her hair.

 

It is indeed possible that once it was brought to her attention that the oaths might be seen as the basis of the Aes Sedai sense of self she may have locked on them.

 

I still think its very excessive though. So sudden and so complete a change is dramatic, even for Egwene.

[mb]

The thread title would be more accurate with 'was' than with 'is'.

 

The Forsaken meeting in Knife of Dreams Chapter 3 seems to hint at Arangar's role in the rebel camp.

 

[Kadere]

This is a spoiler free board, dude.  --Kathana

[dwn]

Note: the dreams Egwene does have are from running from something she can't see, which is exactly the same description Morgase gave of her dreams whilst she was under compulsion.

 

That is something I didn't put together myself, though I'm still doubtful as to Aran'gar using it. I'm really not sure that Aran'gar would care much about Egwene's earlier stance on the Oaths, and I don't see much else to indicate that Egwene is being manipulated in such a way.

 

There's a POV from one of the Forsaken somewhere in which they think something like 'so many things would have been easier if they had possessed a greater Talent for Compulsion.' Does anyone know who and where that comes from?

 

Interfering with Egwene's Dreaming is obviously a big win, though.

 

-- dwn

 

[JenniferL]

The Oaths themselves probably aren't the issue. It's just giving Egwene and the rebels something to be in conflict over. If she wants to get rid of the Oaths and the Aes Sedai as a body want to keep them, then there's a fundamental disagreement that keeps Egwene from truly uniting her faction behind her.

[dwn]

The Oaths themselves probably aren't the issue. It's just giving Egwene and the rebels something to be in conflict over. If she wants to get rid of the Oaths and the Aes Sedai as a body want to keep them, then there's a fundamental disagreement that keeps Egwene from truly uniting her faction behind her.

 

True, but then it would have made sense for Aran'gar to have bolstered Egwene's earlier desire to abandon the Oaths. Instead, Egwene is rapidly convinced by Siuan.

 

-- dwn

[Luckers]

I'm really not sure that Aran'gar would care much about Egwene's earlier stance on the Oaths, and I don't see much else to indicate that Egwene is being manipulated in such a way.

 

Well, consider that in foreswearing the Oaths each Aes Sedai would be brought before the Oath Rod. Aside from therein foreswearing their oaths to the Shadow, it opens the Black Ajah to being captured or exposed on a grand level--a fact which must have occured to Aran'gar given she set out to make the Salidar Aes Sedai think Elaida was Black Ajah.

 

Beyond that I think there are a few ways the Aes Sedai being bound is beneficial for the shadow. For starters it grants the Blacks extra powers--they can lie and be trusted absolutely, in spite of evidence against them. They can use the Power as a weapon at any time, whilst around them everyone feels safe.

 

Then there are the less obvious effects. For instance the oath against using the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn is noble, but its also only viable so long as the Aes Sedai are the only active channeling organisation in the land. That oath will cripple them when it comes to fighting the Seanchan.

 

And, though its even more subtle still, the influence of the oaths on Aes Sedai's nature is negative--the things they chose to forbid are genuinely bad things, though occaisionally nessasary. The problem is instead of doing them when the are nessasary, the oath-bound Aes Sedai do them when they are possible--that whole 'whats not forbidden is allowed' thing.

 

And so you get Accepted practicing giving 'Aes Sedai' answers in order to gain the shawl. Or, in other words, an organisation that practices institutionalised lying as a method of gaining admittence into the ranks.

 

That seems like it wouldn't be a huge deal, but concider all the things Aes Sedai simply assumed as fact because thats how it was stated--that is due to this. Oh, the Aes Sedai are intellectually aware that they can speak a falsehood as truth if they believe it to be so, but you can only go on with women who can't lie suggesting something as truth before you come to believe it.

 

Yes, I reckon there are reasons Aran'gar would want the Aes Sedai to keep the Oaths.

 

There's a POV from one of the Forsaken somewhere in which they think something like 'so many things would have been easier if they had possessed a greater Talent for Compulsion.' Does anyone know who and where that comes from?

 

It was Moghedian just before she tried to balefire Nynaeve. She'd compelled an inkeeper to take her to the roof, and thinks she might have broken the innkeepers mind.

 

 

[dwn]

Well, consider that in foreswearing the Oaths each Aes Sedai would be brought before the Oath Rod. Aside from therein foreswearing their oaths to the Shadow, it opens the Black Ajah to being captured or exposed on a grand level--a fact which must have occured to Aran'gar given she set out to make the Salidar Aes Sedai think Elaida was Black Ajah.

 

Beyond that I think there are a few ways the Aes Sedai being bound is beneficial for the shadow. For starters it grants the Blacks extra powers--they can lie and be trusted absolutely, in spite of evidence against them. They can use the Power as a weapon at any time, whilst around them everyone feels safe.

 

[...]

 

These are all good points (particularly the BA ones, which I wasn't considering).  My post actually completely failed to make the point I was aiming for, though.

 

Egwene's position on the Three Oaths doesn't seem sufficient cause for Aran'gar to use compulsion, particularly since it's highly unlikely that the Aes Sedai would abandon such a tradition lightly. There must be more to it that that. So, assuming Aran'gar is Compelling Egwene with any success, has Egwene taken other actions that might further the Shadow's agenda? (Or is the Oaths thing the only bit that 'stuck' with such a strong-willed victim?)

 

Now, i could see Aran'gar using light Compulsion just for perverse kicks or to gain Egwene's trust, but this sort of thing is a far cry from having real influence over Egwene.

 

I suppose my main aversion to Aran'gar using (subtle) Compulsion is that she just doesn't seem to be very good at subtlety.

 

It was Moghedian just before she tried to balefire Nynaeve. She'd compelled an inkeeper to take her to the roof, and thinks she might have broken the innkeepers mind.

 

Thanks, that was really bugging me.

 

-- dwn

 

[Luckers]

Egwene's position on the Three Oaths doesn't seem sufficient cause for Aran'gar to use compulsion, particularly since it's highly unlikely that the Aes Sedai would abandon such a tradition lightly. There must be more to it that that. So, assuming Aran'gar is Compelling Egwene with any success, has Egwene taken other actions that might further the Shadow's agenda? (Or is the Oaths thing the only bit that 'stuck' with such a strong-willed victim?)

 

You mean like how Egwene forced them to abandon the tradition of not taking girls over 20? Perhaps not as strong a tradition as the oaths, but still damn strong. So strong Romanda is still disdains the idea that the older 'unsuitable' women might reach the shawl in KoD.

 

More significantly though, why risk it? Using low level compulsion on Egwene wouldn't be a risk--its not like anyones going to be testing Egwene for a saidin resonance, and she faced that risk anyway with causing Egwene's headaches.

 

And your right, Aran'gar might have tried other compulsions, but the problem is with Egwene being so skilled actually using the strength needed to redirect her would have had noticeable effects--effects the Aes Sedai could have percieved. She couldn't really 'compel' Egwene, she could only guide her on things she was already wavering on.

 

Egwene was considering the issue of the oaths, and it's not implausible that she reached that conclusion--it's only in the extreme way she takes to the adhere and then retains no other feelings on the subject that suggests to me that she was helped along a bit.

 

Now, i could see Aran'gar using light Compulsion just for perverse kicks or to gain Egwene's trust, but this sort of thing is a far cry from having real influence over Egwene.

 

Oh I agree completely. It'd have been noticeable if she had.

[Agitel]

More than likely Halima is using whatever Verin was using on the da'tsang sisters in the intro to The Path of Daggers, or at least a variation of that. Whatever she's using does not involve outright compulsion. Verin's weave required physical contact (Verin grabbed the head particularly under pretense of Healing), trust, and a seed of a reason within the individual. Another similarity was that the weave worked better when Verin talked while weaving, something Halima certainly does. It was a power to suggest, and with trust and a reason within the person would likely follow the suggestion.

 

Verin's weave left sisters feeling groggy and forgetful of what they just went through. I forget if Egwene goes through this shock, but then again, Verin's weave was reverse engineered from what she could learn from wilder's who subconsciously used the trick but could never recall the weave. I wouldn't be surprised if Halima's weave avoided that. There's also the difference of saidar and saidin.

 

Having some control over the Amyrillin Seat is obviously a plus. I doubt she would have used compulsion, she likely has an idea of how strong-willed Egwene is. Better to get into her trust and Suggest.

[Mr Ares]

More than likely Halima is using whatever Verin was using on the da'tsang sisters in the intro to The Path of Daggers, or at least a variation of that. Whatever she's using does not involve outright compulsion.

What Verin did was Compulsion.

[Agitel]

More than likely Halima is using whatever Verin was using on the da'tsang sisters in the intro to The Path of Daggers, or at least a variation of that. Whatever she's using does not involve outright compulsion.

What Verin did was Compulsion.

 

It may be, it may not be. From the intro:

 

"Of course the thing was not truly Compulsion as ancient texts described it. The weaving went with painful slowness, cobbled together as it was, and there was that need for a reason."

 

The tower most likely would have banned it under the same name, and it certainly is akin to Compulsion, but compulsion as we've seen it (and apparently as the Tower describes it) is more of an instant thing, and also something that doesn't require trust or a reason. I don't want to argue over semantics, though, it certainly has similarities.