Semirhage

[Luckers]

I think the fact that not only are the Dreadlords hidden, but they infiltrate, undermine and corrupt the organisations of the light (White Tower, Black Tower, Seanchan, etc).

 

But on the other hand the servants of the light are aware of this. And concider, too, that none of those left in any power besides Taim and possibly the King of Murandy are darkfriends. Egwene will control the Aes Sedai, and there is no longer anyone Dark with any control over her since Halima was removed and Alviarin is on the outs with her. Rand and his bunch control most other places, and now that Semirhage and Suroth are out to the way the Seanchan are not dangerous for that reason. No one in position to hear the plans of our heroes is a darkfriend... with the exception of members of the Hall, who Egwene doesn't trust anyway.

 

Moreover i believe the implication is that the Black Ajah will be unearthed almost accidently by the capture of Alviarin, and they will rise and it will result in deaths, but no ongoing sabotage. I think that Taim and Logain's battle will result in a similar state. The big question is the Aiel Wise One darkfriends, and how that will play in. And Windfinders.

 

I think you overesitmate the effect those Darkfriends are going to be able to have. I think in the end its going to come down to outright confrontation, and yes, the shadow is outgunned.

 

At least as far as we know... i was saying that the way things are now peoples ongoing insistance that the light is in a bad way is wrong... including RJ's... but he does need them to be. If your heroes are too strong there is no drama. It's why i hold to the idea that Taim was one of a group of people who have been gathering and training channelers for the shadow for the last 20 years. I believe this was instigated when Ishamael learnt Rand had been born, and that such a thing has been done before back when the Trolloc Wars begun (it had to have been... male channelers were dreadlords too back then.) I also believe the male Aiel channelers will come into the game at some stage, possibly turned, and that the Land of the Madmen has been a staging ground for the Shadow's secret channelers... and the reports of its insanity generated to keep people away.

[murhagh]

Actually capturing Semirhage i believes leads up to a Elaida foretelling. Where the dragon reborn will bend knee and know the Amyrlin's anger. (something like that) Whats rand gonna do with her? He is gonna grab his Aiel, his Asha'man and head to the white tower. I'd say about 2 or 3 hundred thousand Aiel that have nothing to do and enough asha'man to level the white tower, will help them decide who they want as Amyrlin. He doesn't have the stomach to kill Semirhage but the white tower does. Who better to drop her off with. Which will lead to the meeting with the amyrlin who will obviously be Egwene because she has the temper to show him and fulfill that foretelling. If it was Elaida he very might well forget that he said he would never harm another woman and kill her. Besides there is no keeping Semirhage's capture a secret. She flat out said who she was in front of a ton of witnesses. He has no choice but to take her to the white tower.

[Luckers]

Nah, he's gonna meet with Tuon, find out about the Seanchan attack, reach a alliance with her, and then go with her to stop it. The anger will be Egwene reacting to him being with the seanchan.

[Genesis_XVI]

I'm with Luckers. Or at the very least, I think Luckers is far closer to the mark. I'm not sure it'll be that smooth. Everyone goin for a nice trip to the WT to stop the enslavement of Aes Sedai. Egwene chucking a tantrum, etc.

 

But the truce, Tuon, WT etc. Spot on. Not sure Rand will be there.

 

-Genesis_XVI

[Luckers]

I'm with Luckers. Or at the very least, I think Luckers is far closer to the mark. I'm not sure it'll be that smooth. Everyone goin for a nice trip to the WT to stop the enslavement of Aes Sedai. Egwene chucking a tantrum, etc.

 

Lol, no, i agree. I was being flippant.

[Aviendha]

Yup .. I agree with Luckers & Genesis. The new found friends (Tuon & Rand) will step in to stop the assault on the WT. And Egwene will not be happy about Rand 'interfering' or making a truce with the Seanchan. But lets face it, Egwene isn't happy about anything concerning Rand ... she thinks the WT is the (only) answer to EVERYTHING :).

 

But what about the dream that had a Seanchan woman helping Egwene to the top of the mountain (or whatever it was). She didn't make it without that help. I always thought this was Egeanin but could it be Tuon?

[Luckers]

I think its representative of Tuon arriving and leading the Seanchan army that had previously been attacking the White Tower in to aid the Aes Sedai in fighting off a Trolloc attack. The fact that the face wavers but the sword remains solid is mostly what suggests this--and the fact that the figure is female means that it is Tuons decision and intention that results in this, but her army that enacts it. The terminology use "We can make it together" and all that also fights with some sort of alliance between two forces.

[Aviendha]

I like the 'we can make it together' reference .. and agree this could be symbolic of the struggle for the future and not a battle for the WT. Whether or not it's Tuon or some other female Seanchan we'll have to RAFO :)

[Luckers]

Well thats the point... i dont really trhink its any particular seanchan, but instead the Seanchan as a whole. The femininity is merely created by the fact that Tuon leads them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Let's establish something from the beginning ... the Light is going to win, because this is a story.

 

 

 

That said, I think the wild card that will make Tar'mon Gaidon more of a contest than those statistics (which are VERY open to interpretation/disputation) might indicate is the fact that the DARK ONE WILL BE LOOSE. He can directly affect reality. In totally unpredictable ways. Which is why only the Dragon can defeat him and win Tar'mon Gaidon. If outgunning the Dark statistically was all that mattered, the battle could be won without the Dragon. Since it can't the most important parts of the battle won't come down to who has the most channelers.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And the Egwene's dream of a shifting Seanchan "woman" could very well represent their entire nation. For several hundred years, the Seanchan have been led exclusively by Empresses. So a woman with a sword (representing, say, a bloody Ever Victorious flaming Army?) helping Egwene as Amyrlin would fulfill this dream. If they show up with a treaty with Rand in hand, it would certainly lead to Rand knowing the Amyrlin's wrath, as Elaida Fortold, since Egwene is not really reasonable where the Seanchan are concerned.

[SI]

rand should fix his hand, semir was one of the best healers before going over, alternatively there is balefire to reverse what she did...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Unless they balefire her pretty quickly that ceases to be an option. Rand hit Rahvin as hard as he could with the stuff, and it only took back a couple of hours, at most. They were in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, so their ability to channel wasn't much diminished, perhaps not at all, and Rand had the little fat man angreal. The Choedan Kal could manage it, or maybe Callandor, but that is unlikely. After all, he barely seemed to care about it. Thats part of his problem, mentally. I doubt he'd risk that much to get it back.

[Gentled Ben]

I can see that:

1)This is a dead, or at least, dying, thread, and

2)It has wandered WAY off topic (as it/you/we/I always do), yet still, I must say...

The wooden box, to which the chapter title referred, was filled with a'dam. She'll be leashed, just as Moggy was. I saw in an earlier post that someone felt the girls were too soft with Moggy, yet it was effective; she taught them almost everything they asked, and from her POV, she didn't think they were soft on her, at all. Put the bracelet on Cads.

[Luckers]

I dunno... Cadsuane's integrity may interfere with that plan.

[vikingdriver]

I'm so uncertain of Cadsuane right now and just what her motives truly are if there are any to speak of. One thing that I am certain of about her is that Semirhage will undoubtedly have a very rough time with Cadsuane's interrogations. but what bugs me is that with the tower being split who, where, and for how long will she have to remain prisoner. what I mean to infer is that those forsaken that have been captured by other than tower Aes Sedai seem to either disappear quietly or are released by other forsaken.

[Gentled Ben]

Well, temporary leashing and leashing as a way of life might be seen differently. Clearly, Cads dislikes the idea of damane, but maybe she could stomach a more limited use of the a'dam, as a device for interrogation. Verin thought a captured FS might prove useful, and Cads is already looking forward to her upcoming talks with Semi, but you might be right; the whole concept of the a'dam might prove too distasteful for Cads to condone it, even under restricted -use circumstances. Then again, she's influential, but not in charge.

[Rumor]

I agree, Ben...Cadsuane's integrity will certainly make her conscience rise up at using an a'dam on anyone, but I would be sorely disappointed in her if she didn't use everything at her disposal on Semirhage. I mean, we talk so casually about the Foresaken in these forums, but in the books, they are the Foresaken...by most considered to be outside of humanity and evil incarnate. Just because we know them as humans from their POVs doesn't mean Cadsuane would consider them so.

 

I wonder, though, what Semirhage will respond to...she may very well like pain in all its glory, including when it is imposed upon her - so what will make her talk?

[Gentled Ben]

Yeah, that's why I'd like to see the a'dam used. She doesn't have to like pain; her will can simply be coerced the same way that Tuon had her way with Joline. Of course, Tuon knows what she's doing; the best Rand's crew can offer is Nynaeve, who, I thought, was only marginally effective with Moggy, at least compared to Egwene''s success with her. I saw elsewhere on these boards where someone was saying that sadists usually can't take what they dish out, and if that's true, then she shouldn't be hard to break, but I still want to see her leashed. :twisted:

[Rumor]

Tuon did nothing to Joline's will...she simply controlled Joline's channeling, which very much shocked Joline. The a'dam doesn't allow one to control another's will, just to break someone so her will becomes yours.

 

As for Semirhage, the question is whether she's a sadist or a sadomasochist...if the former, as you suggest, then you are right. But we don't really know at all if she doesn't suffer from sado-masochism instead.

[Gentled Ben]

Oh. I thought that by controlling her channeling, she was overriding her will, but maybe not. I guess we'll have to RAFO whether Semi enjoys receiving pain or not, as it's a safe bet that SOMEONE on Rand's team is going to administer some to her. :D

 

Either way, I doubt that she'll end up being all that helpful; even if they completely break her, there's not much time left. At least she's out of action for right now, and Rand avoided the sad bracelets. Even if she escapes, that's better than it might have been!

 

You know, cutting the black cords was effective where Asmo was concerned. Perhaps if all else fails, Rand or someone can cut the DO's bonds to Semi in order to make her more cooperative?

[Luckers]

Semirhage displays signs of not being masochistic--look at her thoughts on when she was almost severed by the Hall--but that does not mean she is incapable of standing against torture. She has displayed a strong will, courage, and ver little fear. I don't see her being lightly or easily broken. I personally think a bond would be the best way, but i dont think RJ will do that.

 

Asmo had Lanfear defaming him, he was naturally cowardly, and had little worth to the shadow. Semirhage will be no Asmodean.

 

Tuon had control of Joline's channeling because the a'dam creates an involuntary link. Through the a'dam Tuon could control her ability, and influence her senses, but not her will. We have seen this many times with people bound by the a'dam.

 

Finally Rumor, yes other people might have some problems torturing a Forsaken due to their mythos... but Cadsuane is Cadsuane. It's like Rand observes, facing one of the Forsaken unnerved her no more then facing the Dragon, and we all know how little that unnerved her.

[Rumor]

I had thought Semirhage's thoughts when under threat of being severed had more to do with fear of losing power than fear of pain...but not having read that in awhile, I could be wrong. And anyways, it certainly doesn't point to her being a masochist.

 

But along the lines of her fear of losing power and the immortality granted by the DO, I would think the threat of that would be more effective with her than pain would. That said, I agree that bonding would be the most effective way to deal with her.

 

As for torturing the FS, I was more referring to Cadsuane's integrity/humanity possibly interfering than her being overwhelmed in the presence of an FS. As you so accurately pointed out, she certainly feels no awe for the DR, so why would she for Semirhage...I think she will do it, but what I was saying about her integrity is that most people consider the FS to be pretty much shadowspawn or at least equally as evil, and I don't see integrity interfering with Cadsuane's interrogation of such a one. So basically, we are in complete agreement, but I just wanted to clarify what I meant.

[Luckers]

I had thought Semirhage's thoughts when under threat of being severed had more to do with fear of losing power than fear of pain...but not having read that in awhile, I could be wrong. And anyways, it certainly doesn't point to her being a masochist

 

No, you're right and thats not necassarily what i meant, its the way she thinks about not wanting to be severed that i think is indicative. The flow of her thoughts display, to me, a personality that does not desire unecassary pain.

 

As for torturing the FS, I was more referring to Cadsuane's integrity/humanity possibly interfering than her being overwhelmed in the presence of an FS. As you so accurately pointed out, she certainly feels no awe for the DR, so why would she for Semirhage...I think she will do it, but what I was saying about her integrity is that most people consider the FS to be pretty much shadowspawn or at least equally as evil, and I don't see integrity interfering with Cadsuane's interrogation of such a one. So basically, we are in complete agreement, but I just wanted to clarify what I meant.

 

Ah, right. Gotcha now. Yes perhaps your right, but I've always felt that Cadsuane's integrity is directed inwards, it has more to do with what she feels is right, and less to do with the specific situation. She's aware of it, so its not like its blinding her to reality, and she is able to willfully ignore her own position if it matches what she feels needs to happen, yet nevertheless she does have an inner understanding that she works from.

 

I don't see her hesitating in torturing Semirhage, if thats what needs to be done, but i do see her not being willing to use an a'dam.

[Rumor]

To me, it depends on how she views Semirhage (which goes back to my original post about how the FS are generally viewed)...if she considers Semirhage just another person who happens also to be an FS, then I completely agree that she might hesitate to use an a'dam due to her integrity (by the way, I agree she won't hesitate to use torture, either way). But, if she views Semirhage as too evil to be considered a person anymore, then I don't see her integrity causing any hesitation in using an a'dam as well as in using torture.

 

 

This was what I was getting at when I said, we as spectators view the FS pretty complacently in comparison to how the actual people of Randland do...perhaps Cadsuane's view is more like ours than the general populace. I would think it is, so I'm not really disagreeing, again only just clarifying this dimension I was trying to explain.