Semirhage

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

As repeated pattern, any darkfriends that are captured usually are killed off, and if they are important enough, rescued (Moggy).

 

So who thinks one of those is going to happen in the next book's prologue?

[Mashiara]

I was thinking that she would either escape, or be rescued sometime in the middle of the book. Cause Cadsuane and Semirhage have to have their battle of mind power, which will be amazing so... I'm hoping that Moiraine will come back and balefire her! That would be sweet!:D

[Kadere]

I'm expecting her to be tortured unmercifully, and then have Demandred try some kind of a rescue attempt, she'll escape, and then come back during the Last Battle..... the only problem with that plan is whether or not Demandred would care enough. (along with many others....I know, quiet you.)

[Jedimuppet]

As repeated pattern, any darkfriends that are captured usually are killed off, and if they are important enough, rescued (Moggy).

 

So who thinks one of those is going to happen in the next book's prologue?

 

I'm thinking that she's going to manipulate our friends as they try to get information out of them. I think she's going to bury so many truths in her lies, that they won't know what to believe, and may become mired in doubt.

 

Whether or not it works out like that, I suspect she's going to try.

J

[Luckers]

I have this strange feeling that she is going to be bonded or bound in some way to the light. Not like Asmodean, who was weak willed, but forced to it... It has no real logic behind it other then RJ's ongoing theme of disproving myths of absurd superiority... but i like the idea of it.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

Well, I'm thinking Moridin might attempt a rescue. He's been trying to tie the remaining forsaken to him as much as possible, and this seems like it might be the perfect opportunity. A soul trapped Semirhage would be very useful for Moridin, and if she actually gives Rand some useful information the DO would allow Moridin to soul trap her. Let's face it, RJ can't have any more forsaken fall because as it is right now the forces of the DO are outnumbered and outgunned.

[Pevin]

I've been really annoyed at how the "light" characters treat the Black Ajah and Forsaken they encounter/capture. They don't take it nearly seriously enough. Granted, we never saw exactly how Moirane treated the one (??) they capture in the Stone of Tear or how Adelas and Vandene treat the one they capture in _Crown of Swords_. As far as I'm concered, everyone we have seen in control of captured darkfriends have been extraordinarily foolish.

 

So what should Rand do with Mesanna? For starters, he shouldn't have anything to do with the incarceration/questioning because he is such a wimp towards female enemies. He should hand her over first to Cadsuane, with a circle of thirteen always keeping her shielded. And two other circles of thirteen on guard duty along with maybe a hundred Aiel. The circles should include ashaman as well. I would let Cadsuane do all the questioning with two or three other very strong willed channelers (Sorilea for starters--although I can't remember if she can channel) keeping silent. The circles/guards could all be outside the "interrogation room."

 

If Cadsuane is not persuasive enough on her own, I would let her go to town on Mesanna using an adam (they got some when they captured Mesanna). And I would instruct her to not be nice--Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene were far too nice to Mogehedian. Once Cadsuane has been satisfied, I would turn Mesanna over to Sorilea with instructions for her to be put to the question the Aiel way. Once that was done, it's time for Mesanna to be executed.

 

Hopefully somewhere in the interrogation they would find out that the DO can recycle Forsaken--except the ones balefired.

 

I would be absolutely as cruel and wary as possible with a captured Forsaken.

[Barnabas]

im assuming u mean semirhage:P im more hoping something like that happens than expecting it though, not really sure what im expecting, but i dont think theyll end up getting all that much useful/true information out of semirhage, if any at all. she might however give away something really important for rand to realise how to defeat the dark one or something (extreme, but it conveys the point) without realising

[Pevin]

Oops--yeah, I did mean Semirhage, thanks!

[Luckers]

Pevin, you would have 39 channelers in close proximity to a captured Forsaken when there is no way to know darkfriends from those sworn to the light? It seems pointlessly dangerous. I would have Semirhage bonded in the way that Logain bonded the Aes Sedai, and then compelled to reveal her secrets and work against the Shadow.

[Genesis_XVI]

As would I. It is far safer to bind her with a an oath rod or bond her and keep her on a short leash than surround her with potentially suspect channelers, of questionable fortitude. I mean, Semi was captured during the War of Power, and was broken out of her emprisonment by her own captors!!! With the reason given, not that they were dark, but that she was able to manipulate them so successfully and inspire terror so effectively that they would serve precisely what they were fighting against. This is at a time when there struggle was much more immediate, with a worshipped symbol of their struggle (LTT) to inspire them. Even then, they were overcome. Can you imagine how easily Semi would deal with the current dumb@sses? Sorri and Caddy aside. It would be a breeze.

[Ashanderei]

I get the feeling that Semirhage will be used as a weapon by someone such as Sorilea, who is weak in the Power but has a will of iron, in Tarmon Gai'don. My guess is that she will be leashed with an a'dam, interrogated constantly until she reveals information and then used by a weak channeller as I said above.

[Pevin]

Honestly, I hadn't even thought of the bonding/compelling option. That would certainly be a good idea, except for the effects the "bonder" would feel after she is executed, which would still be high up on my priority list for things to do with a Forsaken.

 

I don't think there are all that many darkfriend channelers with Rand, so circles of 13 should be fairly safe. Even if there are a bunch, would they know each other and be able to act together? And I would only put Aes Sedai in control of the circles who I totally trusted--probably only the group who swore to obey Rand--the ones Min saw as being in Rand's hand.

 

As far as the manipulating her captors, that would be where my ruthlessness came in. I would hurt Semi bad every time she tried to say anything that I did not want her to say. And I think Sorilea and Cadsuane (who would be in charge of her captivity) would not be very lenient.

[Luckers]

There's two that we know of amongst Rand's oathsworn sisters and theres a whole bunch more who we have no idea about one way or another.

 

The bond can be released when it comes time to execute her, which i wouldn't do until after the Last Battle... It would make a potent symbol, openly forcing one of the Dark Ones Chosen to fight against him.

[Knasp]

Well, I'm thinking Moridin might attempt a rescue. He's been trying to tie the remaining forsaken to him as much as possible, and this seems like it might be the perfect opportunity. A soul trapped Semirhage would be very useful for Moridin, and if she actually gives Rand some useful information the DO would allow Moridin to soul trap her. Let's face it, RJ can't have any more forsaken fall because as it is right now the forces of the DO are outnumbered and outgunned.

 

I don't think so.

First of all, the Forsaken hate eachother. And also, trying to rescue Semirhage would be like walking into a trap.Moridin wouldn't rescue her himself if he wanted to. He would probably have a darkfriend rescue her.

BTW, how can you know the forces of DO are outnumbered or outgunned? I think there's more trollocs and minions of the DO than we've seen so far. Also there are many darkfriends allover the world, even Asha'man and Aes Sedai sisters.

[Kaznen]

Another thing to consider is that Semi is a beacon for the other forsaken and the DO. The females are linked to the DO just like the males. So, as long as Semi is around Rand she is a "here he is" signal for the DO.

 

I think she was betting on being captured if her intial plans failed. Now she knows where he goes and who he talks to. In T'A'R she can inform the rest on her intel, and maybe find the seals.

 

Of coursem, it would have been easier if he was captured and collared.

[Pevin]

There's two that we know of amongst Rand's oathsworn sisters and theres a whole bunch more who we have no idea about one way or another.

 

The bond can be released when it comes time to execute her' date=' which i wouldn't do until after the Last Battle... It would make a potent symbol, openly forcing one of the Dark Ones Chosen to fight against him.[/quote']

 

Despite some darkfriends in Rand's midst, I still think that a huge and powerful guard (like the one I suggested) would deter them from trying to free Semirhage. No matter how many darkfriends there are, there would still be more people on Rand's side watching. Because of the need for secrecy among the Black Ajah and darkfriends, I don't think they would be able to coordinate well enough to mount a rescue mission as long as there is an overwhelming force always watching Semi.

 

I don't think I would risk keeping her around too long no matter what. After all, who really knows what a Forsaken is capable of. I wouldn't want to risk her somehow getting free just for a symbol. Even though symbols can be very powerful, I would still put her to the question to get as much info as quickly as possible, and then execute her.

 

One thing that I might be willing to take a risk for would be to use Semi as bait in a trap. Make the guard look weak while the true guard is hidden away somehow and see who comes to her rescue.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

BTW' date=' how can you know the forces of DO are outnumbered or outgunned? I think there's more trollocs and minions of the DO than we've seen so far. Also there are many darkfriends allover the world, even Asha'man and Aes Sedai sisters.[/quote']

 

So far, every single time it has come to a direct confrontation between the light and shadow, the light has prevailed and with a fair margin. The huge Trolloc attack in KoD, the forsaken attacking Rand in the cleansing, Perrin defending Emond's Field, etc, etc, etc. Whenever the DO's forces go toe to toe in a direct confrontation they tend to get whipped (as far as I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong), they're great at working from the shadows and manipulating events, but whenever they have to use direct force, they end up losing. And Tarmon Gai'don strikes me as very much a huge, full out battle. Perhaps there are far more things hidden in the shadow then we know, but that's just speculation so far.

[Kaznen]

They got lucky at Emond's Field. If the men from Devon Ride or Watch Hill didn't show up when they did and attack a committed force from behind the EFers would have been crushed. Same as the attack in KoD. If Logain and his crew hadn't been there they would have been over powered.

 

The Sheirans would have lost Tarwin's gap if not for Rand. Trollocs would have overtaken the Stone if Semi hadn't sent her trollocs to keep that from happening. Moriane, Lan, Perrin, Lolial, and faile would have ended up as darkhound chow if Moriane hadn't used balefire (which she wasn't suposed to know).

 

The "good guys" have been getting by by the skin of their teeth.

[Genesis_XVI]

Kaznen is right. The light has been winning the up-front battles (By the skin of there teeth!!). And that's just the up-front ones. The Forsaken have consistently been meeting their behind-the-scene objectives (Predominantly encouraging chaos and anarchy).

 

Sure, Ishy wasn't able to kill the Dragon before he was the Dragon. And none of them stopped Rand from cleansing Saidin. But to me, all the lights victories have been last minute deflections of Shadow attacks, rather than attacks into the heart of the shadow itself.

 

Were it not for the fact that the forsaken sabotaged each other, all would've been lost. Working together from behind the scenes, they would've won the war before it had begun. So I guess I'm tryin to say: out manned and outgunned exaggerate the lights position inexorbitantly. The lights position is better described as: fragmented and rigoressly corrupted from within. Perriless. Unenviable, etc, etc.

 

And that's probably where the Shadow's real strenght lies, which links with what Luckers was saying about the dangers of surrounding a Forsaken with potentially suspect channelers. The fact that it's not one-on-one, you know your enemy, warfare. They infiltrate, imitate, and undermine. You don't know their your enemy until the hilt of their dagger is protruding from your sternum. And all that time they've been using their position to further the Shadow's ends. You can't counter this kind of warfare until it's too late. Much safer using oath rods. Much safer not underestimating the Shadow.

 

-Genesis_XVI

 

:)

[Luckers]

I actually disagree to a certain extent... oh, you are right about the light winning by fluke as much as anything, that doesn't mean the shadow aint outgunned... coz they are. Look at it in numbers...

 

Channelers.

Aes Sedai = 1000 + 1200 novices (combining rebel and Tower novices). Of that maybe 300 Aes Sedai are darkfriends. Being generous. Since the novices will likely serve as powerwells in circles, their orientation is somewhat irrelevent.

 

The Kin = 1800 - 400 (losses to Seanchan and running away and those too weak to be of use) all of which serve the light. = 1400

 

The Wise Ones = 5500 (500 per clan sans the shaido). Since roughly a third of the Aes Sedai turned out to be darkfriends, lets use that as our cut (though i must say i think there will be less darkfriends amongst the aiel then that) nevertheless lets say 1825.

 

The Seanchan =~4000. This is an approximation. The seanchan only gather sparkers, but they find every one, and they have a much larger population then Randland... and they've gathered every sparker and channeler in the lands they've conqured... including more then probably many of those Kin i excluded... and maybe 400 shaido who will need to be broken and trained, which will take time. Concider too that the Kin dont take in Wilders, so there are likely many more sparkers in that lot too. That being said not all seanchan damane came with the Corenne. My guess is that there are probably around 2500 seanchan damane, and that they've gathered around 1500 since they arrived--this comes from looking at the Aiel clans, numbers and population density, then looking at the size of Seanchan and its population density. All of these serve the light since, as Suroth notes, most sul'dam serve the light.

 

Asha'man - as of last count (which was admittedly a while back) 1000 or so. If someone thinks to start recruiting amongst the Aiel or the Sea Folk that could increase dramatically. 100 darkfriends there.

 

Windfinders - Based on ship numbers and population size im guessing the Windfinder number may be as high as 3000 or even more... again lets say a third are darkfriends, so a 1000.

 

Altogether that means that the Light has 14075 channelers, whilst the Dark has 3225.

 

Now, chances are the Shadow will have a larger army... though with the Seanchan, the Aiel and all of Randland involved and already reasonably mobalized... thats not that massive an advantage... and given the skew in channeler numbers, and the fact that the light has access to angreal, and sa'angreal... No... i dont think the Shadow is in a particularily good position.

[Genesis_XVI]

Your stats are persuasive Luckers, but I maintain that outgunned is a misinterpretation of the facts. It's too strong a term to accurately describe the current climate. While I'd concur with your channelers ratio (I'd maybe even say that you were generous on the side of the Shadow), it isn't as simple as face to face conflict. I think the fact that not only are the Dreadlords hidden, but they infiltrate, undermine and corrupt the organisations of the light (White Tower, Black Tower, Seanchan, etc). This results in something approximately worth: one black channeler = 5 light. Can you imagine the damage a light operative infiltrating the Shadow could achieve?? Being aware of where they are meeting, where they are vulnerable. Able to sow the seeds of dissension. Basically the reverse of what's happening now. The Shadow has been able to continue waging war against the Light since Lews Therin and the 100 companions sealed the bore by this mere fact.

 

To reiterate:

 

And that's probably where the Shadow's real strenght lies, which links with what Luckers was saying about the dangers of surrounding a Forsaken with potentially suspect channelers. The fact that it's not one-on-one, you know your enemy, warfare. They infiltrate, imitate, and undermine. You don't know their your enemy until the hilt of their dagger is protruding from your sternum. And all that time they've been using their position to further the Shadow's ends. You can't counter this kind of warfare until it's too late.

 

The last thing that I think supports my case is the reality that this is Tarmon Gaidin. Were it easy, there would be no series!! Were it as simple as knocking off an outgunned enemy, the Eye of the World would have been the first and last book. I think the very series implies that the future is in the balance. It could go either way. Which is why I say... and maintain... that the Shadow aren't outgunned, outmanned, or outmanouvered. If anything, the Light has a serious uphill battle ahead.

 

-Genesis_XVI

 

Let me know if you agree/disagree. This is just what I think, based on what I know. Perhaps I'm making a grave oversight?? Or not??

[Knasp]

I agree, though the Light has an advantage there is lots of difficulties. Also, not every channeler is gonna fight at Tarmon Gaidon. Also since the people don't know who's a darkfriend and who's not. They don't know who to trust which creats paranoia in favor to the shadow.

 

I think we'll se even larger battles in MoL, probably millions of Trollocs and several darkfriend channelers versus thousands of light channelers, the heroes and large human armies.

[cannon]

But to me, all the lights victories have been last minute deflections of Shadow attacks, rather than attacks into the heart of the shadow itself.

 

Just to argue the point, both the attach on Rahvin and the one on Sammael were "into the heart" of the Shadow's power base and both succeeded with varying degrees of difficulty.

 

Of course, to argue for you, I would have to point out that those on the shadow side of the battle largely didn't know they were. Most of the wars we've seen up to this point have been between various factions of armies which could all easily end up fighting for the "light" at the last battle.

 

The Shadow's real strength, as others have said, has come from undermining the light from the inside. Pitting nation against nation when they should be uniting together.

[AtheistMonk]

Yes, the fact that the light has seemed to be less and less on the defensive has stripped most of the drama out of the recent books. This is why I think there has to be a "Holy shit, an army of gholams" moment or something like that, if the book is to have any real interest.

 

That or Aginor has made other "creations" that can eat up the armies of the light. That'd be cool.