Rand needs his hand back

[zebronic]

I think perhaps we need to a little bit more faithful.  RJ knew what he was doing and did for a reason. We just don't know what that reason is.  We may end up being justified or may not.  As for the sword fighting, I'm not sure it's possible for Rand to be a blademaster with one hand.  He'll have to fight sideways instead of square among other things.  And the funny thing is is that losing a hand is the least of his problems. Poor Rand.  I don't think he'd have any chance in TG right now. Can't swordfight. Has difficulties with channeling.  Which is another thing I've wondered.  Is there anything besides OP strength that makes Rand the Dragon Reborn?  It says that only the Dragon Reborn can win Tarmon Gai'don so I'm assuming that someone with equal OP strength as Rand would have no chance at TG. But why?

 

I also want to know if there is a reason why world would fail without Rand.

RJ states that light has no chance of success without Rand.But with Rand also chance of success is little.

I would like to repeat Locke question "why light wont have chance without rand"?

Any answer would be appreciated.

[Majsju]

From all the comments about Rand not being a blademaster anymore,one might almost think some of you expect him to win TG by defeating the DO in a duel with swords.

 

Is there anything besides OP strength that makes Rand the Dragon Reborn?  It says that only the Dragon Reborn can win Tarmon Gai'don so I'm assuming that someone with equal OP strength as Rand would have no chance at TG. But why?

 

OP strength does not make Rand the Dragon Reborn. Rand being the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telamon makes Rand the Dragon Reborn.

But if we look at what Rand has that might help him win TG, I am almost willing to bet a considerable amount of money that him being the strongest ta'veren in at least 1000 years, possibly the strongest since the AOL will be more important than his strength in Saidin. His link with two other strong ta'veren will also prove quite important.

 

Strangth in Saidin and skill with a sword is helpful if he goes up against the occasional forsaken/darkfriend. Against the DO, not so much. And it is the fight against the DO that is lurking around the corner.

[Arkelias]

I think perhaps we need to a little bit more faithful.  RJ knew what he was doing and did for a reason. We just don't know what that reason is.  We may end up being justified or may not. 

 

I know I should be more faithful, but RJ has burned me repeatedly for about the last ten or twelve years.  I have no faith left in him.  Honestly, my expectations for the rest of the series is pretty low. The upside, of course, is that the books will probably exceed my expectations =)

 

Balefire, I see him following the redemptive hero.  The issue I have is that we're only supposed to get the finale from here on out.  I don't think Sanderson has enough page count to have Rand redeemed.

 

RJ has too many characters that need to be dealt with for even Rand to receive a significant portion of the page count.  If he wants to wrap everything up we're going to be jumping from storyline to storyline, and I doubt we'll see Rand get a chance to heal, get stronger and then fight the DO =/

 

Let's hope I'm wrong.  He could get that bionic chaingun Wombat mentioned =p

 

Maj, I don't think we expect Rand to actually fight anyone with a sword.  Its just something cool that was built into him during the formative books of the series, and we aren't sure why it was taken away.

[Balefire to da face!]

From all the comments about Rand not being a blademaster anymore,one might almost think some of you expect him to win TG by defeating the DO in a duel with swords.

 

Is there anything besides OP strength that makes Rand the Dragon Reborn?  It says that only the Dragon Reborn can win Tarmon Gai'don so I'm assuming that someone with equal OP strength as Rand would have no chance at TG. But why?

 

OP strength does not make Rand the Dragon Reborn. Rand being the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telamon makes Rand the Dragon Reborn.

But if we look at what Rand has that might help him win TG, I am almost willing to bet a considerable amount of money that him being the strongest ta'veren in at least 1000 years, possibly the strongest since the AOL will be more important than his strength in Saidin. His link with two other strong ta'veren will also prove quite important.

 

Strangth in Saidin and skill with a sword is helpful if he goes up against the occasional forsaken/darkfriend. Against the DO, not so much. And it is the fight against the DO that is lurking around the corner.

 

Being the most powerful channeler and most powerful ta'veren is part of it, but I think the important part is simply Rand being what Rand is. It's the legacy that comes with being the Dragon Reborn. The idea of the Dragon Reborn is very important. An obvious example is that no matter how worthy a replacement might have been if they had stepped into Rand's place, the Sea Folk and Aiel would not have cared or given them aid. Rand has face opposition from being the dreaded Dragon Reborn, but it's also helped him keep nations he's taken with little effort where other rulers would have faced all out rebellion. It's not just about what Rand himself personally does, but how Rand effects the world just by being the Dragon, that makes him so important for TG.

 

Balefire, I see him following the redemptive hero.  The issue I have is that we're only supposed to get the finale from here on out.  I don't think Sanderson has enough page count to have Rand redeemed.

 

RJ has too many characters that need to be dealt with for even Rand to receive a significant portion of the page count.  If he wants to wrap everything up we're going to be jumping from storyline to storyline, and I doubt we'll see Rand get a chance to heal, get stronger and then fight the DO =/

 

Not really, look how much was done in KoD when Jordan decided to finally cut to the chase. A lot can happen in a little space. I mean hell, Rand cleansed Saidin so that is dealt with, and we have the privilege of knowing something Rand doesn't about being linked to Moridin. While the lack of foreshadowing is a bit weird, I would still imagine that Rand will face Moridin before the DO(or maybe Logain will face him?). Once he kills him, for all we know most of Rand's problems with channeling could be gone just like that. And we know that Cads is going to help him recover at least a little from all the mental trauma in there somewhere. I wouldn't count on Rand being 100% by the Last Battle, but I would be really surprised if he faces the Dark One on the slopes of Shayol Ghul stumbling around and puking :P

 

Also, I am not too worried about Rand's storyline being fudged. Looking at it from the author's point of view, I am guessing that Rand is the "easy part". Jordan said that he knew the final scene when he started, right? I am thinking that means that he knew a lot of Rand's storyline for the entirety of the series even then. Afterall, there may be other important characters, but Rand is the straight line to the end....everyone else is just swirling around him. Even if he kind of got stumped on what exactly to do with Perrin or Elayne for a while I am still pretty confident that Rand's storyline is a pretty clear line all the way to the end. Think about all the prophecies. If there is one thing Jordan knew, it was how Rand was going to face TG. It won't be slapdash....

[FallingBullets]

It won't be slapdash....

well, unless you count slapdash all over Shayol Ghul :P

 

and I agree, Rand will be fine ;)

[Arkelias]

Hopefully I'm wrong and the ending does the series justice.  Nothing would make me happier!

 

Its just that I feel that so much time was spent gimping rand and making him damaged goods.  Will we see a corresponding recovery period, or will Cads smack him around a little and he'll just magically be better?  Thus far she hasn't done anything to help him heal, and she hasn't taught him anything than to fear another bossy self important Aes Sedai.

 

I just don't want to see a cheesy ending, and I think RJ painted himself into a corner.  In order to finish the story Rand needs to recover, but I think that recovery is going to be rushed. 

 

Particularly given that RJ had said AMoL was supposed to be the last book.  Does anyone think he could have finished the series in a satisfying manor given just one more book?  I certainly don't see it.

 

Hopefully with Sanderson doing three books we'll actually have it done the way it should have been.  But, like I said, I have 0 faith in RJ.  I was one of the suckers who bought every book in hardcover.  I wasted a lot of money on books 7, 8, 9, and 10.  Eleven was better, but still flawed and still not worth buying in hardcover IMO.

 

Anyway, I'm wandering too far afield here.  Sorry about that!  Like I said I hope I'm wrong and that Rand is made into a character I actually like again before the end!

[Balefire to da face!]

Hopefully I'm wrong and the ending does the series justice.  Nothing would make me happier!

 

Its just that I feel that so much time was spent gimping rand and making him damaged goods.  Will we see a corresponding recovery period, or will Cads smack him around a little and he'll just magically be better?  Thus far she hasn't done anything to help him heal, and she hasn't taught him anything than to fear another bossy self important Aes Sedai.

 

I disagree. Cads has done a lot with what she had to work with.

 

Rand has learned to work with an Aes Sedai that he feels he can trust and that is his equal. Not even Moiraine had that kind of standing with him. I thought the "kneel or be knelt" scene was as cool as the next guy, but Rand learning to stand with AS rather then dominant them or just ignore them is going to be very important, and Cads has at least set the groundwork for that.

 

A huge part of Rand recovering needs to be him learning to trust those who deserve it again, and not trying to save the world single-handedly. I think Cads lesson will be more then that, but that's part of it and we are already seeing it. Nyn helped, but can you imagine Rand taking any other AS with him to the cleansing short of maybe Moiraine(and Moiraine hasn't had the pleasure of dealing with Rand since he went completely bonkers....).

 

I just don't want to see a cheesy ending, and I think RJ painted himself into a corner.  In order to finish the story Rand needs to recover, but I think that recovery is going to be rushed.

 

 

Well, emotional recovery requires time and subtlety to avoid feeling cheesy, but the physical aspect....I don't see why that couldn't be a relitively quick process. Like I said, snip Moridin and maybe geting Crazy Lews under control and bam....Rand is physically ready for TG.

 

And I am not worried about the emotional build up. Like I said, I think Cads is already working on him. I think there will be more to come. And again, it's a viewing we've known about since at least book 7(I think) so it's not going to be a quick fix.

 

Particularly given that RJ had said AMoL was supposed to be the last book.  Does anyone think he could have finished the series in a satisfying manor given just one more book?  I certainly don't see it.

 

Hopefully with Sanderson doing three books we'll actually have it done the way it should have been.  But, like I said, I have 0 faith in RJ.  I was one of the suckers who bought every book in hardcover.  I wasted a lot of money on books 7, 8, 9, and 10.  Eleven was better, but still flawed and still not worth buying in hardcover IMO.

 

We'll never know what would have happened. I still think that Jordan had a pretty clear picture of what's going to happen with Rand planned out for a long time(if not from the very beginning) and I doubt he would have fudged it even if it meant condensing his final book a little. I think KoD showed that he was willing to cut the chafe in order to get to the important stuff. But yeah, not worth fussing over since we'll never know.

 

 

Anyway, I'm wandering too far afield here.  Sorry about that!  Like I said I hope I'm wrong and that Rand is made into a character I actually like again before the end!

 

I have a feeling that book 12 and maybe even 13 will be hot and cold with some really good stuff we've been waiting for for a looong time and some not so great stuff tying up the loose ends like the Elayne fiasco, Black Ajah hunt, etc. But I think A Memory of Light will be frickin amazing. I am not an optimist at heart, and I haven't been a huge fan of the last few books, I just think all signs point to RJ knowing exactly how he wanted to end the series....he just got sidetracked on how to get there.

[Seven of Nine]

Rand has learned to work with an Aes Sedai that he feels he can trust and that is his equal. Not even Moiraine had that kind of standing with him. I thought the "kneel or be knelt" scene was as cool as the next guy, but Rand learning to stand with AS rather then dominant them or just ignore them is going to be very important, and Cads has at least set the groundwork for that.

 

A huge part of Rand recovering needs to be him learning to trust those who deserve it again, and not trying to save the world single-handedly. I think Cads lesson will be more then that, but that's part of it and we are already seeing it. Nyn helped, but can you imagine Rand taking any other AS with him to the cleansing short of maybe Moiraine(and Moiraine hasn't had the pleasure of dealing with Rand since he went completely bonkers....).

I think you've hit the name on the head here about Rand learning to trust again--and trust on an equal level. Too much of Rand's interaction with AS and Ashaman (Ashamen?) has been a power struggle on both sides. I hate it when people try and manipulate and use me, so I completely sympathize with Rand in this. But a focused group with a specific plan will do a lot for Rand's case.

 

I think as far as Rand's emotional healing much of it is a mindset. Something needs to break through his barrier and help him to view the world differently--an epiphany, if you will. That could happen rather quickly.

[OptimusPrime]

So Ive come into this discussion halfway through, havent read all of the comments yet but I wanted to reply to a specific post.

 

I hope it gets healed but I don't think it will.  I have been kind of hoping that Nynaeve would somehow figure out how to heal it.  No more epic sword fights for Rand I guess

Or some seriously epic swords fights since he'll only have one hand.

 

As Rand pointed out he'll need to relearn the sword all over again.  With Tarmon Gaidon approaching its doubtful he'll have time.  This move really boggles me, and I don't understand why RJ did it?

 

He's set Rand up the whole time to be a great swordsman.  Why take the hand away?  Other than further gimping our poor hero what purpose does it serve? I know it obviously upset a lot of readers =(

 

I picked this post Ark because Im an aspiring writer and I know you write also. I think I may give you, as another writer, a satisfactory answer.

 

As mentioned, the ongoing theme for Rand is that he is making himself hard, not strong. We all know what that means; metaphorically for Rands situation, hard breaks, strong recovers. To me, it seems that the most significant things Rand connects to his "hardness" are the sword and the Power. Rand revels in swordfighting, just look at how fast he learns it; he feels that it fits what he must become and he uses it to push himself to that end. Because it makes him formidable, which he believes is paramount to everything. The Power, he abuses so heavily that emotions are now alien to him. Look at when he realized Aviendha was alive, he released the Power because he "wanted to feel this." Rand would lose the will to live if he had been gentled with no knowledge of severed-Healing without a shadow (or should I say Shadow) of a doubt.

 

The sword and the Power are the main driving forces to Rands hardening. Now, its got to the point where his emotional state is the main thing, the main issue. It has to be dealt with, so something has to make Rand turn and face it. The sword and the Power must be taken away from him, that he might remember that he is still human, must still be human, for his victory to save the world.

 

First, the illness that comes with channeling makes Rand weary of seizing Saidin and on top of that Lews Therin wants the Power bad enough to snatch it off Rand. So, even embracing the Source brings paranoia of Lews Therin or sickness and dizziness. He now fears to use the Power, which is forcing him to deal with all the little things that add up, the things he would have ignored had he been blocked from emotions by Saidin.

 

Second, Semirhage blasted his hand off. Take note of what was mentioned earlier about Rand almost immediately noting that he must relearn the sword. Losing a hand was a mental blow for Rand more than he realizes, because it hampers one of the things he connects to his hardness. He immediately thinks about his formidability (new word) yet he doesnt have time to relearn really because the Last Battle is so obviously near with so many issues to still be dealing with. Another significant blow to Rands aura of emotional immunity.

 

That is what I believe to be why Rand had his hand blown off. His defenses have been breached, now its either sink or swim. Rand cant turn away from his emotions anymore because his armor is broken; the two things that he felt made him the ultimate warrior are not the same, and he has no reason to believe they will be.

[FallingBullets]

So Ive come into this discussion halfway through, havent read all of the comments yet but I wanted to reply to a specific post.

 

I picked this post Ark because Im an aspiring writer and I know you write also. I think I may give you, as another writer, a satisfactory answer.

 

As mentioned, the ongoing theme for Rand is that he is making himself hard, not strong. We all know what that means; metaphorically for Rands situation, hard breaks, strong recovers. To me, it seems that the most significant things Rand connects to his "hardness" are the sword and the Power. Rand revels in swordfighting, just look at how fast he learns it; he feels that it fits what he must become and he uses it to push himself to that end. Because it makes him formidable, which he believes is paramount to everything. The Power, he abuses so heavily that emotions are now alien to him. Look at when he realized Aviendha was alive, he released the Power because he "wanted to feel this." Rand would lose the will to live if he had been gentled with no knowledge of severed-Healing without a shadow (or should I say Shadow) of a doubt.

 

The sword and the Power are the main driving forces to Rands hardening. Now, its got to the point where his emotional state is the main thing, the main issue. It has to be dealt with, so something has to make Rand turn and face it. The sword and the Power must be taken away from him, that he might remember that he is still human, must still be human, for his victory to save the world.

 

First, the illness that comes with channeling makes Rand weary of seizing Saidin and on top of that Lews Therin wants the Power bad enough to snatch it off Rand. So, even embracing the Source brings paranoia of Lews Therin or sickness and dizziness. He now fears to use the Power, which is forcing him to deal with all the little things that add up, the things he would have ignored had he been blocked from emotions by Saidin.

 

Second, Semirhage blasted his hand off. Take note of what was mentioned earlier about Rand almost immediately noting that he must relearn the sword. Losing a hand was a mental blow for Rand more than he realizes, because it hampers one of the things he connects to his hardness. He immediately thinks about his formidability (new word) yet he doesnt have time to relearn really because the Last Battle is so obviously near with so many issues to still be dealing with. Another significant blow to Rands aura of emotional immunity.

 

That is what I believe to be why Rand had his hand blown off. His defenses have been breached, now its either sink or swim. Rand cant turn away from his emotions anymore because his armor is broken; the two things that he felt made him the ultimate warrior are not the same, and he has no reason to believe they will be.

Oh wow, that makes perfect sense, thankyou :)

 

Also, the lack of being able to fight/channel adds to the tension, as he is needed for the last battle.

[Arkelias]

It's an interesting theory Optimus, thank you for sharing it.  That could have been exactly what RJ intended for Rand, and it could provide the avenue through which he finds recovery and redemption.  I guess we'll have to wait for more books to know for sure!

 

The problem I still have is one of pacing.  Having Rand fall hard on his face was clearly necessary to the tale RJ wanted to tell.  I just feel that he's spent too much time tearing Rand down, and not enough building him up.

 

In the end this will make the series a tragedy in the classic sense.  Tragedies aren't meant to leave you with a happy, content feeling.  They are meant to effect you on an emotional level.  The series has definitely done that.  I just didn't realize when it began that a tragedy was what RJ was going for.

 

In a way it reminds me of Robin Hobb's assassin trilogy.  She is an absolutely amazing writer, and I couldn't put those books down.  When I finished them I felt queasy and sad.  Fitz gets screwed over in every way its possible to be screwed over.  In the end he triumphs, in a way, but its a joyless victory and is painful to witness.

 

I'm starting to get the feeling that's the angle RJ is going for.  Its certainly how he's set Rand up since book six =/

[OptimusPrime]

I find that Rand was built up enough myself, the gradual transformation from commoner to earthshaker did it for me.

 

In the end this will make the series a tragedy in the classic sense.  Tragedies aren't meant to leave you with a happy, content feeling.  They are meant to effect you on an emotional level.  The series has definitely done that.  I just didn't realize when it began that a tragedy was what RJ was going for.

 

For me, that would depend on whether or not Rand is alive at the end. To me, this series does not promise a tragic ending for Rand at all, because of the amount of foreshadowing there has been over him possibly living again after the expected sacrifice. It seems like RJ has been going out of his way to promise us that Rand will survive the Last Battle somehow, that he will die a death from which he can return. I can see how you view it as a tragedy, as the second half of the series definitely puts Rand through a torrent of lifechanging hardships, yet to me there has been light at the end of that tunnel for a hell of a long time. Never before have I rooted for a character like I do for Rand, especially the way he was resigned to sacrificing himself despite just wanting to live, and when all the hints came about for him living after dying (three in the boat, to live you must die, others) instantly I "knew" he would somehow be alive at the end. Of course, he could end up dying after returning from death, in which case I will be on the same edge as you Ark. Rand being alive at the end has been promised to us way too obviously in my eyes, and the events building up to the epic ending made me really want Rand to survive more so than any character I have ever come across. Sounds weird, I know. Usually when a protagonist dies its bad, sometimes it ruins the series. To me if Rand has the tragic ending and dies the final death I will fall out with the series big time.

 

RJ said in an interview that he had prepared a "hook" for the epilogue of what would have been AMoL. I think he might have planned for a passage hinting at Rand being reborn straight away. I hope that isnt the case. I want Rand alive as Rand at the end, and I want him to die at some point. Its all been promised to us, Ive been dying to see how RJ would pull off bringing Rand back from the dead. They say bringing back a protagonist after they have died should never been done to avoid gimping a story, but I am pretty damn confident I have pulled it off for my own story and I know RJ could have easily. He has been promising to show me that for Ages and if it doesnt happen, again, I will fall out with the books. At least for a time.

[Seven of Nine]

Ah no. You mean like Rand is reborn as one of his children?  :-\

[FallingBullets]

well theres always Avi's four who are said to be strange ;)

[OptimusPrime]

well theres always Avi's four who are said to be strange ;)

 

I think those kids will be different as a result of whatever comes of the Rand merging with Moridin (or whoever, just to avoid provoking theories that will distract this discussion) like in Mins viewing. Maybe Aviendhas kids are conceived after the bodyswap/merge.

[OptimusPrime]

Ah no. You mean like Rand is reborn as one of his children?  :-\

 

No, I meant just reborn somewhere. Wouldnt be impressed if he ended up being one of his own kids!

[Seven of Nine]

Me either!

 

Yet it would almost fix things that prophecy changed by putting him back where he belonged--in Andor in the royal house with the job of being what Gawyn is to Elayne.

[Arkelias]

I 100% believe that Rand will survive the last battle.  He'll die, but live again.  This could take many forms, but the one I think most likely is that LTT will die and Rand will live on.  The body swap theory could also happen.

 

What I mean by tragedy is what Rand will be like afterwards.  He's emotionally broken, and that's not something easily healed.  After the last battle I think he will be a bitter, twisted shell of a man.  At least as things currently stand.

 

That's the tragedy I see coming about.  So much betrayal, fear, pain and anguish can't leave someone unscarred and RJ has done a thorough job of showing us how these things have effected Rand.  He is nearly as full as distrust as Mat was when he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth.

 

With the last battle so close how is it possible to reverse those changes?  I don't see it happening, and I can't picture Rand after the last battle as ending up happy.  How can you be after the horrors you've faced?  Especially not when Elayne is one of your harem *shudders*.

[magnutz]

Since the story has hinted at an earlier age where things were much as they are in our world (On Mother Earth) maybe there will be a Star Wars tie-in. Rand will uncover the secret of robotics and the fine art of electronics - and in short, he'll get himself a nice robot-hand.

 

:)

[Arkelias]

I like the bionic chain gun better.  Or, even cooler than that maybe he'll have a harness put on his wrist that allows for multiple attachments.  He could have a caddy follow him around.

 

"Today, I'd like to wear the spike please."

 

It could be awesome!  Well, amusing anyway.

[OptimusPrime]

Since the story has hinted at an earlier age where things were much as they are in our world (On Mother Earth) maybe there will be a Star Wars tie-in. Rand will uncover the secret of robotics and the fine art of electronics - and in short, he'll get himself a nice robot-hand.

 

:)

 

I wondered a while ago if a ter'angreal hand would be made for him. Doubtful though.

 

I like the bionic chain gun better.  Or, even cooler than that maybe he'll have a harness put on his wrist that allows for multiple attachments.  He could have a caddy follow him around.

 

"Today, I'd like to wear the spike please."

 

It could be awesome!  Well, amusing anyway.

 

Maybe the potential/nonpotential ter'angreal hand would be the ultimate channeler enhancer. Thumb as a Well. Rod of balefire as the Index Finger. Oath Rod as Third Finder. Little fat man angreal as the Pinky. Choeden Kal access key as the Middle Finger with the Ring of Tamyrlin on it. Booyah.

[Arkelias]

With a small box of strikers in the palm so he can light his pipe without using the one power...

[Seven of Nine]

And just don't be distracted when you're trying to remember which finger to use.

[magnutz]

And just don't be distracted when you're trying to remember which finger to use.

 

Yeah. He'll be trying to light his pipe and end up oblitterating the tobaco plant and all its plant history because he uses the Rod of Balefire Finger instead of the fire stick thingy... weird stuff.. ;)

[Arkelias]

Just imagine what could happen if you scratched yourself with the wrong finger.  You could balefire some very important bits!