The Gholam?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

So I've been thinking that the timeline may not matter that much.  It seems reasonable that the Gholam is either in Illian or Cairhain.  Regardless of where it is it has to get to Ebou Dar.  Illian is a lot closer and I think the Gholam could reach Ebou Dar by ship in time but I do not see the Gholam's need to feed being put off the whole voyage.  I do not have anything to back this up just going off of the traditional vampire myths.  Since the Gholam is a construct it cannot travel but there is a Way Gate in Cairhain.  Machin Shin (if I recall correctly) is attracted to Ta'verin (The Great Hunt) and large numbers (The Shadow Rising).  The Gholam operates solo so it would not attract Machin Shin and if it was to run into Machin Shin by chance what could Machin Shin do to the Gholam?  The Gholam is basically indestructable and for all I know might be embraced the way Fain was in The Eye of the World (unlikely I think).  The only thing that makes me consider a second Gholam is Fel's death.  I do not know why Sammael would want Fel killed.  I don't think it was just to mess with Rand because the timing was too perfect.  There are a lot of eyes and ears around Rand so it would not be a secret that Rand was talking to Fel and it would not be difficult to discover who Fel is.  And sending the Gholam to kill an old man when one of the Not Dead would suffice seems wasteful this does not fit Ishamael.  I cannot find the quote I'm looking for but when Sammael proposes the truce with Rand I think Rand says something about Sammael being wasteful.

[Sharaman]

@Zaphod.

There is one Gholam hit in Carhein (Fel's murder), followed six days later by a gholam attack in Ebou Dar (in the Rahad in the building where they find the Bowl of the Winds).

Steven's done the hard work but this is a pretty solid timeline.

We have it referenced by feast days in Carhein (Perrin starts chasing Rand on a feast day and we know when Dumai's Wells happened and when Rand returned) and by feast days in Ebou Dar, which are referenced to the same calendar in use in both Carhein-Ebou Dar.

If it's the same gholam, it doesn't matter whether it went to Ebou Dar by Ilian, or by Arad Doman, or by the Ways; it has to reach Ebou Dar within that timeframe.

That seems a tough call unless it does use the Ways. 

Otherwise, we're talking about two gholams.

Yes, there is a Waygate in Carhein and presumably, a Waygate somewhere in/ around Barashta (Ebou Dar). We have alternative hints about an Ebou Dar Waygate due to the trolloc ambush in TGS prologue.

Can gholams use Ways? Physically, sure it can. It may even be immune to Machin Shin.

Can it navigate Ways? We don't know if the gholam is "intelligent" enough to read. Also it's been shut up since before the Ways were built, unlike trolloc and myrdraal, who can read. (We don't even know for sure if the gholam can speak Common because it's only spoken to Mat who might not notice if it spoke Old Tongue. )

 

Maybe you're getting confused because of the literary devices.

Fel dies in the LoC epilogue.

The Ebou dar storyline started much earlier in LoC, when Mat and the Supergirls Travelled there and Mat settled into Mistress Anan's inn.

The Ebou Dar story continues almost seamlessly, but it only restarts in ACoS chapter 13.

 

[logannagol]

This is just some food for thought but, what if Fel's murderer wasn't the gholam but Moridin himself. In Ebou Dar Moridin gets angry and draws on the true power, destroying a window frame, and incidentally a darkfriend servant, who is turned into a red mess. Someone being torn into pieces with the power sounds like a thing that Moridin would do.

The reason I say this is that the impression I got from the books is that Sammael found the gholam in a stasis box and it was under his control till his death. Now I find it hard to believe that Sammael was even aware of Fel's existence or gave a damn about what he did, it just doesn't sound like Sammael. However it's like someone said, Moridin would be a bit suspicious of what Fel was up to.

By the way, I also believe that Ishamael was responsible for Barthanes death.

[logannagol]

This is just some food for thought but, what if Fel's murderer wasn't the gholam but Moridin himself. In Ebou Dar Moridin gets angry and draws on the true power, destroying a window frame, and incidentally a darkfriend servant, who is turned into a red mess. Someone being torn into pieces with the power sounds like a thing that Moridin would do.

The reason I say this is that the impression I got from the books is that Sammael found the gholam in a stasis box and it was under his control till his death. Now I find it hard to believe that Sammael was even aware of Fel's existence or gave a damn about what he did, it just doesn't sound like Sammael. However it's like someone said, Moridin would be a bit suspicious of what Fel was up to.

By the way, I also believe that Ishamael was responsible for Barthanes death.

[Sharaman]

This is just some food for thought but, what if Fel's murderer wasn't the gholam but Moridin himself. In Ebou Dar Moridin gets angry and draws on the true power, destroying a window frame, and incidentally a darkfriend servant, who is turned into a red mess. Someone being torn into pieces with the power sounds like a thing that Moridin would do.

The reason I say this is that the impression I got from the books is that Sammael found the gholam in a stasis box and it was under his control till his death. Now I find it hard to believe that Sammael was even aware of Fel's existence or gave a damn about what he did, it just doesn't sound like Sammael. However it's like someone said, Moridin would be a bit suspicious of what Fel was up to.

By the way, I also believe that Ishamael was responsible for Barthanes death.

 

Quote from the LoC Epilogue :

"Sitting in his study, Herid was peering into his pipe and wondering whether he had the means of lighting

it at hand when the gholam squeezed under the door. Of course, even if Fel had been paying attention, he would

not have believed, and once the gholam was inside the room, few men would have stood any chance.

When Idrien came to Fel's study later, she stared at what was piled none too neatly on the floor beside

the table. It took her a moment to realize what it was, and when she did, she fainted before she could get a

scream out. However many times she heard of someone torn limb from limb, she had never seen it before."

 

Barthanes' murder is more ambiguous. Though he was torn limb from limb, we don't know who or what was responsible.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

@Zaphod.

There is one Gholam hit in Carhein (Fel's murder), followed six days later by a gholam attack in Ebou Dar (in the Rahad in the building where they find the Bowl of the Winds).

Steven's done the hard work but this is a pretty solid timeline.

We have it referenced by feast days in Carhein (Perrin starts chasing Rand on a feast day and we know when Dumai's Wells happened and when Rand returned) and by feast days in Ebou Dar, which are referenced to the same calendar in use in both Carhein-Ebou Dar.

If it's the same gholam, it doesn't matter whether it went to Ebou Dar by Ilian, or by Arad Doman, or by the Ways; it has to reach Ebou Dar within that timeframe.

That seems a tough call unless it does use the Ways. 

Otherwise, we're talking about two gholams.

Yes, there is a Waygate in Carhein and presumably, a Waygate somewhere in/ around Barashta (Ebou Dar). We have alternative hints about an Ebou Dar Waygate due to the trolloc ambush in TGS prologue.

Can gholams use Ways? Physically, sure it can. It may even be immune to Machin Shin.

Can it navigate Ways? We don't know if the gholam is "intelligent" enough to read. Also it's been shut up since before the Ways were built, unlike trolloc and myrdraal, who can read. (We don't even know for sure if the gholam can speak Common because it's only spoken to Mat who might not notice if it spoke Old Tongue. )

 

Maybe you're getting confused because of the literary devices.

Fel dies in the LoC epilogue.

The Ebou dar storyline started much earlier in LoC, when Mat and the Supergirls Travelled there and Mat settled into Mistress Anan's inn.

The Ebou Dar story continues almost seamlessly, but it only restarts in ACoS chapter 13.

 

I'll go with the 6 days.  What matters is that Sammael had to bring the Gholam to Ebou Dar between the time Carridin spotted Mat and when the Gholam shows up in Ebou Dar.  The Gholam does not seem to travel by foot too fast since it never caught up with Mat while he was traveling with Luca.  It does not seem very likely that the Gholam would have traveled by ship.  The Gholam does not seem to be stupid so it should have the ability to read since it can speak.  Can it read Ogier or Trollic script I do not know, of the two I think its more likely to be able to read Trollic.  Here's a not too much of a stretch, what if Sammael ordered a Fade to escort the Gholam through the Ways. 

[lordrains]

I get the impression that the gohlam is at least as intellegent as a mydrall. He is an assasin made for killing aes sedai in the age of legends. i would think it would take some amount of cunning to kill something that can travel or at least skim away from you. he can't just stomp up to them and like a trolloc.

[Sharaman]

Yes, if the Gholam used the Ways, it can make the trip in 6 days. There's a Waygate in Carhein, and one in Ebou Dar (Elder Haman calls it "Barashta"). It could be escorted by a Fade, or maybe it can read the directions.

Otherwise, we're talking about two gholams, which complicates matters, since we have no idea who's controlling either, now that Sammael is dead. We have no idea for that matter what the Carhein specimen is upto.

The negative evidence about two Gholams is that we haven't heard Dobraine or some other Carhein-based guy complaining about a string of bloody murders.

 

 

[logannagol]

This is just some food for thought but, what if Fel's murderer wasn't the gholam but Moridin himself. In Ebou Dar Moridin gets angry and draws on the true power, destroying a window frame, and incidentally a darkfriend servant, who is turned into a red mess. Someone being torn into pieces with the power sounds like a thing that Moridin would do.

The reason I say this is that the impression I got from the books is that Sammael found the gholam in a stasis box and it was under his control till his death. Now I find it hard to believe that Sammael was even aware of Fel's existence or gave a damn about what he did, it just doesn't sound like Sammael. However it's like someone said, Moridin would be a bit suspicious of what Fel was up to.

By the way, I also believe that Ishamael was responsible for Barthanes death.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

I thought Barthanes was killed by Thom?

[Sharaman]

I thought Barthanes was killed by Thom?

 

Galldrian was (probably) killed by Thom.

We learn about Barthanes' death from Thom's PoV when the inn-keeper tells him Barthanes is dead and Thom realises that the assassins were from Galldrian.

(Chapter 34. TGH.)

 

[logannagol]

And its noted that Barthanes' body was found torn to pieces.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

This is just some food for thought but, what if Fel's murderer wasn't the gholam but Moridin himself. In Ebou Dar Moridin gets angry and draws on the true power, destroying a window frame, and incidentally a darkfriend servant, who is turned into a red mess. Someone being torn into pieces with the power sounds like a thing that Moridin would do.

The reason I say this is that the impression I got from the books is that Sammael found the gholam in a stasis box and it was under his control till his death. Now I find it hard to believe that Sammael was even aware of Fel's existence or gave a damn about what he did, it just doesn't sound like Sammael. However it's like someone said, Moridin would be a bit suspicious of what Fel was up to.

By the way, I also believe that Ishamael was responsible for Barthanes death.

I agree that the Gholam killed Barthanes but to be honest I've never thought too much about Barthanes's death.  Why was Barthanes killed?  Why would Ishamael want to Barthanes dead? 

[Entreri]

I would say that the Gholam is 'immune' against the OP only.  Since it was created by the OP.  

 

I think one would need to create a Gholam from the TP for it to be 'immune' to it.

 

Mat's medallion would also be ineffective against the TP. Hopefully he will not encounter Ishamael.

 

The TP cured LTT's madness.  It appears that the TP can do some things the OP cannot.

 

I suspect that this 'immunity' has limitations. If attacked by a great enough force of OP, it would be destroyed. Like steel melting with sufficient heat.  

[storywriter100]

I thought Barthanes was killed by Thom?

 

Galldrian was (probably) killed by Thom.

We learn about Barthanes' death from Thom's PoV when the inn-keeper tells him Barthanes is dead and Thom realises that the assassins were from Galldrian.

(Chapter 34. TGH.)

 

 

Galldrian deffinately wasnt killed by Thom, neither of them were. It is because Galladrian died Thom had to flee Cairhein, cus every1 would think it was him (im pretty sure about that anyway.

 

I suspect that this 'immunity' has limitations. If attacked by a great enough force of OP, it would be destroyed. Like steel melting with sufficient heat. 

 

Personally i dont think it does have limitations. Like the way wood never melts.

[StefanR]

I would say that the Gholam is 'immune' against the OP only.  Since it was created by the OP.  

 

I think one would need to create a Gholam from the TP for it to be 'immune' to it.

 

Mat's medallion would also be ineffective against the TP. Hopefully he will not encounter Ishamael.

 

The TP cured LTT's madness.  It appears that the TP can do some things the OP cannot.

 

I suspect that this 'immunity' has limitations. If attacked by a great enough force of OP, it would be destroyed. Like steel melting with sufficient heat.  

 

I think the gholam was made with the TP, so that it was immune to the OP. It seems a bit odd that the DO's people would have access to this other power that ONLY THEY could use and not use it to create something only those with access to the TP would be able to destroy.

 

I don't think you can create something with one power and by using that power grant something an immunity to it.

[yoniy0]

Galldrian deffinately wasnt killed by Thom, neither of them were. It is because Galladrian died Thom had to flee Cairhein, cus every1 would think it was him (im pretty sure about that anyway.

Sorry, but I think you're wrong. In TGH chapter 34 Thom learns that Galldrian's people are responsible for killing Dena. Zera, who told him this, thinks he's going to try something stupid ("You try to kill the King, and you'll be dead before you get within a hundred spans of him"). He tries to put her fears to rest, but it's pretty clear he's lying ("I'm only an old gleeman, [...] Who could I possibly be dangerous to?" As he pulled the door to, hiding her, hiding Dena, a mirthless, wolfish grin came onto his face).

Next time we hear anything about Galldrian, Elayne confirms that he's dead (and she thinks the arsons started after he died, so it's clear it wasn't long after Thom and Zera's conversation that someone killed Galldrian).

[Charlz Fel]

Galldrian deffinately wasnt killed by Thom, neither of them were. It is because Galladrian died Thom had to flee Cairhein, cus every1 would think it was him (im pretty sure about that anyway.

Sorry, but I think you're wrong. In TGH chapter 34 Thom learns that Galldrian's people are responsible for killing Dena. Zera, who told him this, thinks he's going to try something stupid ("You try to kill the King, and you'll be dead before you get within a hundred spans of him"). He tries to put her fears to rest, but it's pretty clear he's lying ("I'm only an old gleeman, [...] Who could I possibly be dangerous to?" As he pulled the door to, hiding her, hiding Dena, a mirthless, wolfish grin came onto his face).

Next time we hear anything about Galldrian, Elayne confirms that he's dead (and she thinks the arsons started after he died, so it's clear it wasn't long after Thom and Zera's conversation that someone killed Galldrian).

 

Also: In the Dragon Reborn, when Mat encounters Thom in a tarvern in Tar Valon, Thom says

Carhien.  Such trouble it causes, killing a man, even when he deserves killing.  Kill a man who needs killing, and sometimes others pay for it.  The question is, was it worth doing anyway?

Thom killed Galldrian and blames himself for the civil war that erupted.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I would say that the Gholam is 'immune' against the OP only.  Since it was created by the OP.  

 

I think one would need to create a Gholam from the TP for it to be 'immune' to it.

 

Mat's medallion would also be ineffective against the TP. Hopefully he will not encounter Ishamael.

 

The TP cured LTT's madness.  It appears that the TP can do some things the OP cannot.

 

I suspect that this 'immunity' has limitations. If attacked by a great enough force of OP, it would be destroyed. Like steel melting with sufficient heat.  

 

I think the gholam was made with the TP, so that it was immune to the OP. It seems a bit odd that the DO's people would have access to this other power that ONLY THEY could use and not use it to create something only those with access to the TP would be able to destroy.

 

I don't think you can create something with one power and by using that power grant something an immunity to it.

The Foresaken are definately afraid to use the True Power with the exception of Ishamael.  Aginor was the one who created the shadowspawn and he has proven himself to be something of a coward.  So it seems unlikely he would have created the Gholam with the True Power. 

 

It seems that just about anything is possible with the One Power so it doesn't seem to far of a stretch to make something that protects against channeling. 

[yoniy0]

The Foresaken are definately afraid to use the True Power with the exception of Ishamael.  Aginor was the one who created the shadowspawn and he has proven himself to be something of a coward.  So it seems unlikely he would have created the Gholam with the True Power.  

 

It seems that just about anything is possible with the One Power so it doesn't seem to far of a stretch to make something that protects against channeling.  

I find your conclusion unlikely. For one thing, the DO's power is evident in all Shadowspawn. Since Aginor made them, he must have used the TP in doing so). For another, if the TP wasn't used in their making, why weren't similar creatures made during the eons that came before the War of Power (we know they were experimenting with such work, after all they did make the Nym)? Last but not least, all Shadowspawn seem to obey the DO completely. If they were constructs of the Power, I would expect their approach to be more similar to that of the Forsaken (Lanfear wasn't above suggesting to kill the DO with the CK).

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

The Foresaken are definately afraid to use the True Power with the exception of Ishamael.  Aginor was the one who created the shadowspawn and he has proven himself to be something of a coward.  So it seems unlikely he would have created the Gholam with the True Power.  

 

It seems that just about anything is possible with the One Power so it doesn't seem to far of a stretch to make something that protects against channeling.  

I find your conclusion unlikely. For one thing, the DO's power is evident in all Shadowspawn. Since Aginor made them, he must have used the TP in doing so). For another, if the TP wasn't used in their making, why weren't similar creatures made during the eons that came before the War of Power (we know they were experimenting with such work, after all they did make the Nym)? Last but not least, all Shadowspawn seem to obey the DO completely. If they were constructs of the Power, I would expect their approach to be more similar to that of the Forsaken (Lanfear wasn't above suggesting to kill the DO with the CK).

The Dark One's power only seems evident in Shaidar Haran.  Sure some shadowspawn do have gifts but not all of them.  What would be the Trollics gifts?  It could be true that the True Power was used to create all of the shadowspawn.  If this is true than Aginor would be addicted from the use to create the shadowspawn.  Could it be that Aginor is no longer addicted because of his death in Eye of the World, maybe.  We certainly did not get every good look at Aginor's eyes in Eye of the World. 

[yoniy0]

Not all Shadowspawn have unusual talents, true, but they are all warped in a way that suggests the Shadow.

Also, Aginor could have used minute amounts of the TP in his research.

[Entreri]

Not all Shadowspawn have unusual talents, true, but they are all warped in a way that suggests the Shadow.

Also, Aginor could have used minute amounts of the TP in his research.

 

No. All the Shadowspawn created by Aginor were done so using the TP. Aginor does not see to be one that can only use a bit of the OP and not use it again.

 

Ishamael used the TP, completely addicted to it.

 

Rand, with his immense willpower used the TP and the ONLY THING stopping him from using the TP ever again was the Choden Kal.  The two balancing each other out.  The TP is far too addictive for anyone to stop using it. 

 

One such as Aginor would never be able to stop himself from using the TP. In the EoTW, he was using the OP.

 

Gholam created using the OP, so is Mat's medallion.  OP can create a lot of fantastic things, such as cuendillar, sa'angreal, Choden Kal... 

 

 

[Knobs Mahoney]

The Wheel of Time companion guide suggests that Aginor was a distinguished genetic scientist, and that Trollocs and Myrrdrall (unintentionally) were his creations. It doesn't suggest at all that either the One Power or True Power were used in the making of them, so I'm curious as to just how you can definitely say "All Shadowspawn were made using the TP".

 

Provide some sort of proof?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Not all Shadowspawn have unusual talents, true, but they are all warped in a way that suggests the Shadow.

Also, Aginor could have used minute amounts of the TP in his research.

Why can't the darkness we see in the shadowspawn but from the their human elements?  What I mean this is the evil of Shadar Logoth was not created by the Dark One but by humans.  Humans have the capicity for good and evil.  The human represention of this evil within ourselves is Fain.